Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[silent thunder]

hmm...

 

does one meditate to become something?

acquire something?  find a thing and then have it... possess it?

who acquires something?  who possesses?

 

can one keep it safe and protect it from being lost, broken or taken?

 

does one meditate to unfold something? 

drop something?  let something go?

what is dropped?  who drops?

 

who sits?  who meditates?

[Mudfoot]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

hmm...

 

does one meditate to /... /

acquire something? 

Well. 

 

Some westerners acquire discipleship in several Pai's. 

(JAJ and Ian Duncan comes to mind) 

So I guess:More is better. 

[flowing hands]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

No - I cannot because they claim to posses secret knowledge past down from generation to generation. That's what makes those practices esoteric. It's a matter of faith whether you accept the claim that those practices go back to Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. But as the philosophies of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu as known from the texts seem adverse to those practices I consider them as not belonging to the original doctrines of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu.

 

I think you really need to read the DDJ and understand properly the verses. All knowledge is directed to the reader. The reader of course has to use some intelligence to work out what is being said and what is being taught, it is not an easy task. Daoist practices go back thousands of years before Lao Tzu. Now humans invented the bow and arrow about 64,000 years ago, it is pretty reasonable to assume that Daoists, led by shamans, experimented and understood practices that would result in certain outcomes.

Lao tzu came from a deeply rooted shamanistic culture, along with Chuang Tzu. To ignore this is not to see the root and fail to understand the writings however badly translated. Lao Tzu contains many chapters about the way in which one can self cultivate and become an Immortal; it is written there you just have to understand it.

[silent thunder]

be in a spot.  effortless.  just be.

presence.

awareness.

 

what is there to seek, create, acquire, destroy, imply, attempt?

 

can one calm the water of a pond, by smoothing it with the hand?

by force of will and physical achieving?  by mental acquisition?

 

what is there... other than to

 

be.

 

allow the body to breathe itself.

 

allow being...

[CityHermit!]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:24 PM, flowing hands said:

 

I think you really need to read the DDJ and understand properly the verses. All knowledge is directed to the reader. The reader of course has to use some intelligence to work out what is being said and what is being taught, it is not an easy task. Daoist practices go back thousands of years before Lao Tzu. Now humans invented the bow and arrow about 64,000 years ago, it is pretty reasonable to assume that Daoists, led by shamans, experimented and understood practices that would result in certain outcomes.

Lao tzu came from a deeply rooted shamanistic culture, along with Chuang Tzu. To ignore this is not to see the root and fail to understand the writings however badly translated. Lao Tzu contains many chapters about the way in which one can self cultivate and become an Immortal; it is written there you just have to understand it.

Not to divert from the topic but sometimes I've come across archaeological discoveries of ancient axes that change the way how we understand how humanity developed in the past. In any case, it may be possible that further archaeological discoveries could give us more insight on the development of Taoism perhaps or related principles and practices. I would hope so at least.

[CityHermit!]

Ok, a question has been on mind. Since it has been asked if various practices are implicit within the Laozi and Zhuangzi, I want to also ask are there also passages that imply semen retention? In other words does the practice of semen retention go back to the Laozi and Zhuangzi and if so, where?

[Marblehead]

14 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

I want to also ask are there also passages that imply semen retention? In other words does the practice of semen retention go back to the Laozi and Zhuangzi and if so, where?

There are none.  Not a single one.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@CityHermit!, verses have been interpreted as such, and medical texts involving sex were found amongst the Mawangdui texts where the oldest known copy of the Dao De Jing was found. Best we don't tarnish this thread with speculations on that topic though.

[wandelaar]

Just do what you have to do. Don't overdo things. Living out one's natural span of life. Don't force it. Be natural. Etc.

 

That's Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. The simple forms of meditation they promoted were for overcoming the self centered perspective of the ego and for connecting to the natural way of the Tao.

 

But it's no use debating this as those who absolutely want to trace their esoteric practices back to Lao tzu and Chuang tzu will find ways to do so, no matter what.

[Daemon]

On 06/06/2018 at 7:49 AM, wandelaar said:

Just do what you have to do. Don't overdo things. Living out one's natural span of life. Don't force it. Be natural. Etc.

 

That's Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. The simple forms of meditation they promoted were for overcoming the self centered perspective of the ego and for connecting to the natural way of the Tao.

 

But it's no use debating this as those who absolutely want to trace their esoteric practices back to Lao tzu and Chuang tzu will find ways to do so, no matter what.

 

 

Your own (forced) meditation practice seems to be in diametrical opposition to the intellectual understanding, which you've outlined here.

What, if anything, am I misunderstanding?

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

14 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Your own (forced) meditation practice seems to be in diametrical opposition to the intellectual understanding, which you've outlined here.

What, if anything, am I misunderstanding?

 

☮️

 

Lao tzu and Chuang tzu were not entirely consistent themselves, and I am not a 100% Taoist. The paradox resides in trying to be natural. In their criticism of Confucianism Lao tzu and Chuang tzu erred in the opposite direction of not taking the aspect of training serious enough. Training is always "forced" in the sense that you wouldn't need to train yourself if you were already able to do what you are trying to achieve.

 

"Just do what you have to do. Don't overdo things. Don't force it."

 

These are actually quite difficult things to achieve. Our egocentric perspective makes it all to easy to ignore the natural dynamics of the situation, and the viewpoints of others, and it is difficult to be happy with just the little unassuming bit of action that is really necessary. So just doing what feels natural is not enough. Forcing yourself to just sit for maybe an hour and not to act on your thought or feelings is an excellent training to break the many dysfunctional egocentric reaction patterns we have.

[rene]

On 5/18/2018 at 2:39 PM, dawei said:

 

I think that is a valid point but not sure if your finding this is a Neiye saying instead of a LZ one, and LZ would have no knowledge of such a saying?  If that was the case, I'd reverse the thinking to say Neiye wrote a saying as an understanding of LZ.

 

Or not.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

On 5/18/2018 at 5:23 PM, Stosh said:

The date of Neiye is uncertain , though it is a Taoist text , it is ascribed to various authors , Legalist ,Confucianist and Daoist , compilation may be about 300BC
TTC dates to possibly 400BC ,
Lao possibly dates  605-531 BC and ,so Neiye is a later 'document' and one cannot assume Lao was in accord with things written after him. 
He never read it. 

 

This is going by traditional authorship, in which case Guan Zi would predate Lao Zi. Also, Lao Zi frequently speaks of ancient sayings and practices, so it seems  unlikely that he invented everything he wrote about.

[Stosh]

I  dont think he wrote the Neiye. Besides, we Tbums dont agree on , much desipite all living in the same period. 

So its a faulty supposition to figure Lz must agree with Gz . 

Remember that there were different schools acknowleged in those days ,by Them. 

And the point still stands , He never read the document. 

Right? 

 

 

[rene]

10 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

 

This is going by traditional authorship, in which case Guan Zi would predate Lao Zi. Also, Lao Zi frequently speaks of ancient sayings and practices, so it seems  unlikely that he invented everything he wrote about.

 

Hi Harmonious Emptiness (-:

Would you (or anyone!) kindly point to the chapters in the TTC where Laozi "speaks of ancient sayings and practices" ?

Thanks!

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by rene

[Harmonious Emptiness]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

I  dont think he wrote the Neiye. Besides, we Tbums dont agree on , much desipite all living in the same period. 

So its a faulty supposition to figure Lz must agree with Gz . 

Remember that there were different schools acknowleged in those days ,by Them. 

And the point still stands , He never read the document. 

Right? 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that he wrote it, just that he and the Nei Ye came from the same tradition. Did he read it? It's quite possible that both documents are that of an oral tradition, just like Confucius' Ananalects, albeit possibly more word for word given the rhyme schemes. So, he didn't have to read the document if the teachings within it were circulating amongst his peers. Guanzi lived around 700 BC and was an extremely talented Prime Minister. He likely had people very similar to Lao Zi around him, given the time period and how connected everyday life was to nature, if was to know so much about agriculture and the like.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

3 hours ago, rene said:

 

Hi Harmonious Emptiness (-:

Would you (or anyone!) kindly point to the chapters in the TTC where Laozi "speaks of ancient sayings and practices" ?

Thanks!

 

 

Quite an exercise, but here you go:

Indications of an earlier tradition in Lao Zi

Aside from the more overt mentions of “old sayings,” describing the Sage, in general, seems to suggest an existing traditional community of “the sages” that he is lecturing on for an inquiring audience. Also, many of the times he says “this is called…” he may be referring to existing terminology. Speaking of Guanzi (see my previous comment) he may have been asked about the traditions that helped Guanzi bring Qi such success.

 

Using Lin Yutang's translations

Ch. 15

The wise ones of old had subtle wisdom and depth of understanding,
So profound that they could not be understood.
And because they could not be understood,
Perforce must they be so described:

 

Ch. 22

Is it not indeed true, as the ancients say,
   "To yield is to be preserved whole?"
Thus he is preserved and the world does him homage.

 

39:

That is why the princes and dukes call themselves
   "the orphaned," "the lonely one," "the unworthy."
Is it not true then that they depend upon the common man for support?

 

41:

Therefore there is the established saying:
   "Who understands Tao seems dull of comprehension;
   Who is advance in Tao seems to slip backwards;
   Who moves on the even Tao (Path) seems to go up and down."

 

49

The Sage dwells in the world peacefully, harmoniously.
The people of the world are brought into a community of heart,
And the Sage regards them all as his own children.

 

50

It has been said that he who is a good preserver of hi life
   Meets no tigers or wild buffaloes on land,
   Is not vulnerable to weapons in the field of battle.
The horns of the wild buffalo are powerless against him.

 

57

Therefore the sage says:
   I do nothing and the people are reformed of themselves.
   I love quietude and the people are righteous of themselves.
   I deal in no business and the people grow rich by themselves.
   I have no desires and the people are simple
      and honest by themselves.

 

62

Wherein did the ancients prize this Tao?
Did they not say, "to search for the guilty ones and pardon them"?
   Therefore is (tao) the treasure of the world.

 

68

The brave soldier is not violent;
The good fighter does not lose his temper;
The great conqueror does not fight (on small issues);
The good user of men places himself below others.
- This is the virtue of not-contending,
   Is called the capacity to use men,
   Is reaching to the height of being
      Mated to Heaven, to what was of old.

 

77

Who can have enough and to spare to give to the entire world?
Only the man of Tao.
Therefore the Sage acts, but does not possess,
   Accomplishes but lays claim to no credit,
   Because he has no wish to seem superior.

 

78

Therefore the Sage says:
   "Who receives unto himself the calumny of the world
   Is the preserver of the state.
   Who bears himself the sins of the world
   Is king of the world."
Straight words seem crooked.

[wandelaar]

A useless discussion, both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu promote meditation, although the Tao Te Ching does it in a more concealed manner as accords with the nature of the book. We also have given the citations that prove it, but Stosh simply refuses to acknowledge it because he doesn't like it. And so any time this point comes up he will again start questioning the obvious and distorting the evidence. Let him have his own Stoshian Taoism. For those who want to know what Lao tzu and Chuang tzu (or those who wrote in their name) most likely thought about (the uses of) meditation I can commend the articles and books of Harold D. Roth. See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_D._Roth

Edited July 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

6 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

 

I'm not saying that he wrote it, just that he and the Nei Ye came from the same tradition. Did he read it? It's quite possible that both documents are that of an oral tradition, just like Confucius' Ananalects, albeit possibly more word for word given the rhyme schemes. So, he didn't have to read the document if the teachings within it were circulating amongst his peers. Guanzi lived around 700 BC and was an extremely talented Prime Minister. He likely had people very similar to Lao Zi around him, given the time period and how connected everyday life was to nature, if was to know so much about agriculture and the like.

Youre still making a presumption that Lao was of the tradition of Gz , right?

You have to Show that their opinions are the same first, you cant presume that they have the same outlook ,,,, they were understood even back then, to be of different schools of thought. 

The pope believes in god , I dont ,, we both have been exposed to the teachings of Peter, but we aint on the same page. 

Even if teachings that look like Gz and Lz both end up in the Neiye, you still have to discern if the teachings are pristine. 

Anybody could write a dao , same as they can write a memoir , there's no logic to saying that my dao , my theory of how the world works , is the same as the popes. We are of different schools of thought . Me atheist , him Christian , and that will affect every aspect of how the texts we write should be understood. 

By the way , Nice to see you posting again. 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well Stosh, you'll have to shell out a few bucks for The Thread of Dao then. Far too many examples for me to go through. The entire book is about that.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532348564&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=thread+of+dao&dpPl=1&dpID=51MSbCajMRL&ref=plSrch

 

[rene]

7 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

 

Quite an exercise, but here you go:

Indications of an earlier tradition in Lao Zi

Aside from the more overt mentions of “old sayings,” describing the Sage, in general, seems to suggest an existing traditional community of “the sages” that he is lecturing on for an inquiring audience. Also, many of the times he says “this is called…” he may be referring to existing terminology. Speaking of Guanzi (see my previous comment) he may have been asked about the traditions that helped Guanzi bring Qi such success.

 

Using Lin Yutang's translations

Ch. 15

The wise ones of old had subtle wisdom and depth of understanding,
So profound that they could not be understood.
And because they could not be understood,
Perforce must they be so described:

 

 

 

Ch. 22

Is it not indeed true, as the ancients say,
   "To yield is to be preserved whole?"
Thus he is preserved and the world does him homage.

 

 

39:

That is why the princes and dukes call themselves
   "the orphaned," "the lonely one," "the unworthy."
Is it not true then that they depend upon the common man for support?

 

 

 

41:

Therefore there is the established saying:
   "Who understands Tao seems dull of comprehension;
   Who is advance in Tao seems to slip backwards;
   Who moves on the even Tao (Path) seems to go up and down."

 

 

 

49

The Sage dwells in the world peacefully, harmoniously.
The people of the world are brought into a community of heart,
And the Sage regards them all as his own children.

 

 

 

50

It has been said that he who is a good preserver of hi life
   Meets no tigers or wild buffaloes on land,
   Is not vulnerable to weapons in the field of battle.
The horns of the wild buffalo are powerless against him.

 

 

 

57

 

Therefore the sage says:
   I do nothing and the people are reformed of themselves.
   I love quietude and the people are righteous of themselves.
   I deal in no business and the people grow rich by themselves.
   I have no desires and the people are simple
      and honest by themselves.

 

 

 

62

Wherein did the ancients prize this Tao?
Did they not say, "to search for the guilty ones and pardon them"?
   Therefore is (tao) the treasure of the world.

 

 

 

68

The brave soldier is not violent;
The good fighter does not lose his temper;
The great conqueror does not fight (on small issues);
The good user of men places himself below others.
- This is the virtue of not-contending,
   Is called the capacity to use men,
   Is reaching to the height of being
      Mated to Heaven, to what was of old.

 

 

 

77

Who can have enough and to spare to give to the entire world?
Only the man of Tao.
Therefore the Sage acts, but does not possess,
   Accomplishes but lays claim to no credit,
   Because he has no wish to seem superior.

 

 

 

78

 

Therefore the Sage says:
   "Who receives unto himself the calumny of the world
   Is the preserver of the state.
   Who bears himself the sins of the world
   Is king of the world."
Straight words seem crooked.

 

 

Thank you, Harmonious Emptiness, for your time and energy spent on that reply; very much appreciated!

 

I've always wondered what others found in the TTC that suggested LiEhr promoted various martial practices and paths found in other traditions; you're the first who was willing to point to the specific chapters. My take is otherwise - but it is always good to understand what others' perspectives are based on. 

 

warmest regards (-:

[Stosh]

19 minutes ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Well Stosh, you'll have to shell out a few bucks for The Thread of Dao then. Far too many examples for me to go through. The entire book is about that.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532348564&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=thread+of+dao&dpPl=1&dpID=51MSbCajMRL&ref=plSrch

 

I don't need to , I already understand that a person might be influenced by people before them , but one cant assume that we are in lock step with those folks , just as a presumption, since , for example , we don't go by Copernicus' theory of the solar system.

What youve done is bow out , point at some other guy ( book) and say to me , well argue with them .. and so, its my presumption that is what I have already been doing, with you as proxy .

You read them , and now parrot the ideas back at me. 

Sorry that's harsh' but I don't care for that abrupt cut-off in a conversation with a person I like , which would be you . 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Stosh

[rideforever]

A channel ... is itself empty yet it guides, yet it is full.
It is as if not there, but without it nothing would flow.
From ego to channel.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@Stosh

Okay, fair enough.. you go read an entire book and are still not convinced and I'm nowhere to continue the conversation.. I get that. But literally every 5-10 lines of the translations is followed by explanations and examples showing the same ideas in the Dao De Jing and other texts, often nearly word for word or otherwise thought for thought as contained in a chapter by Lao Zi. There's not much point in taking the time to show you one or two examples, which you might have a rebuttal for, and then continue doing that for 300 pages. Sorry, but I don't have that much time.

 

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

@Stosh

Okay, fair enough.. you go read an entire book and are still not convinced and I'm nowhere to continue the conversation.. I get that. But literally every 5-10 lines of the translations is followed by explanations and examples showing the same ideas in the Dao De Jing and other texts, often nearly word for word or otherwise thought for thought as contained in a chapter by Lao Zi. There's not much point in taking the time to show you one or two examples, which you might have a rebuttal for, and then continue doing that for 300 pages. Sorry, but I don't have that much time.

 

Reading a book , doesn't put one in a position to challenge what the author is saying or presuming , telling me to read a book you read , puts me in that same position, and I am not going to do that.

The issue is simple enough not to require a book to prove. If the author made connections that he feels confirms that Lao parrots Gz , a conversation could include one of those comments. That would be the informative part of the conversation , wouldn't it? 

If I have  rebuttals for the comments you chose , then , rebuttal might be valid. We don't know yet. but 

This possible validity is not something everyone might want to entertain, and if that's the case, then there is not actually a conversation happening , to get to the truth of the matter ,,, what is going on is ,  the defense of a wrong book.