Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sure, but the fact that so many examples exist, in itself, is part of the argument, and we can't get to that massive part of the argument without seeing all of the examples. That's why I'm not willing to begin a discussion based on 1% of the evidence.

[rene]

28 minutes ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

@Stosh

Okay, fair enough.. you go read an entire book and are still not convinced and I'm nowhere to continue the conversation.. I get that. But literally every 5-10 lines of the translations is followed by explanations and examples showing the same ideas in the Dao De Jing and other texts, often nearly word for word or otherwise thought for thought as contained in a chapter by Lao Zi. There's not much point in taking the time to show you one or two examples, which you might have a rebuttal for, and then continue doing that for 300 pages. Sorry, but I don't have that much time.

 

 

Not answering for Stosh, just my 2 cents here.

 

People often read in to things what they expect to find, or want to find, or need to find for one reason or another - to support their path, marketing an idea, whatever. I've heard one Bum say that Chapter 1 of the TTC proves there is a (christian) God. <-that was the most extreme, but there have been many other 'reverse-engineering'  examples, and debates, in here and elsewhere.

 

Here's a wonderful link that shows over a hundred ways that the TTC Ch 1 has been translated. It's pretty easy to see the starting point of the translator in each of them. And easy to understand how ideas can form around the renditions. Likely all good or useful ideas, yes - but not necessarily what Laozi had in mind...especially those with a Confucian, Buddhist or Christian flavor.

 

http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/tao-te-ching.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by rene

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Sure, but the fact that so many examples exist, in itself, is part of the argument, and we can't get to that massive part of the argument without seeing all of the examples. That's why I'm not willing to begin a discussion based on 1% of the evidence.

That's your prerogative, but that's what would be the better part of talking about the stuff.

If Lz is just a re-write of Gz , well,, thats a big enchilada!

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, rene said:

 

Not answering for Stosh, just my 2 cents here.

 

People often read in to things what they expect to find, or want to find, or need to find for one reason or another - to support their path, marketing an idea, whatever. I've heard one Bum say that Chapter 1 of the TTC proves there is a (christian) God. <-that was the most extreme, but there have been many other 'reverse-engineering'  examples, and debates, in here and elsewhere.

 

Here's a wonderful link that shows over a hundred ways that the TTC Ch 1 has been translated. It's pretty easy to see the starting point of the translator in each of them. And easy to understand how ideas can form around the renditions. Likely all good or useful ideas, yes - but not necessarily what Laozi had in mind...especially those with a Confucian, Buddhist or Christian flavor.

 

http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/tao-te-ching.htm

 

 

 

 

I think I agree heartily with that and you can answer for me on this,  since it looks nicer.  

[rideforever]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

 

You are intelligent Stosh, but can you use your intelligence to find the answers you need ?
Can you use your intelligence to open ways and means of progess that might yield something ?
Even in a deeply imperfect situation, can you find a strategy for making some progress ?
If you are smart enough to find fault with things, can you also use your smartness to create order from the situation ?
Not everyone has much intelligence, but they have other things.   
Whatever we have it we must help it to flower so that something comes of it.

[rene]

8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

You are intelligent Stosh, but can you use your intelligence to find the answers you need ?
Can you use your intelligence to open ways and means of progess that might yield something ?
Even in a deeply imperfect situation, can you find a strategy for making some progress ?
If you are smart enough to find fault with things, can you also use your smartness to create order from the situation ?
Not everyone has much intelligence, but they have other things.   
Whatever we have it we must help it to flower so that something comes of it.

 

I've known Stosh for 12 years; you've known him for 10 minutes.

Yeah, he can do all that. In amazing ways. LOL

 

[Stosh]

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

You are intelligent Stosh, but can you use your intelligence to find the answers you need ?
Can you use your intelligence to open ways and means of progess that might yield something ?
Even in a deeply imperfect situation, can you find a strategy for making some progress ?
If you are smart enough to find fault with things, can you also use your smartness to create order from the situation ?
Not everyone has much intelligence, but they have other things.   
Whatever we have it we must help it to flower so that something comes of it.

Honestly no , IQ doesn't answer certain things , its just a speed rating. 

I have created , created plenty and shared it . Over 7000 posts of my own thought, poetry prose and photos.

But I do recognize that what I have supplied doesn't have much demand.   

Because that which would be most helpful to absorb , is that which has been rejected- for some reason or other -to begin with. 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Stosh

[rene]

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Honestly no , IQ doesn't answer certain things , its just a speed rating. 

I have created , created plenty and shared it . Over 7000 posts of my own thought.

But I do recognize that what I have supplied doesn't have much demand.   

Because that which would be most helpful to absorb , is that which has been rejected- for some reason or other -to begin with. 

 

 

TTC 70 F/E

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

16 minutes ago, Stosh said:

is that which has been rejected- for some reason or other -to begin with. 

 

People have to be met where they are, or they will not be able to bridge the new understanding with their existing structure .... it takes a good heart to meet someone where he is and make the effort to bridge your understanding with theirs.  The mother of the universe.   Perhaps it can be frustrating sometimes, but with clear perception then the frustration should ease, and there is just the job at hand in the universe at hand.   Whatever work needs doing needs doing, however high or low, it is always a pleasure to serve the growth of understanding in the universe.

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, rene said:

TTC 70 F/E

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

 

 

Yes - it's the big Stosh-show again. Why bother what Lao tzu and Chuang tzu had to say about meditation, and what we could possibly learn from it. Questioning and disputing the whole thing is much more fun...

[rene]

27 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - it's the big Stosh-show again. Why bother what Lao tzu and Chuang tzu had to say about meditation, and what we could possibly learn from it. Questioning and disputing the whole thing is much more fun...

 

Hi wandelaar (-:

 

Our resident expert Marblehead can speak to what ZZ said about meditation, if he chooses to.

 

LZ said nothing specifically about meditation, i.e...what types would be best, etc - so anything one could possibly learn from the TTC on any kind of meditation specifics - would be of one's own or others' conjecture.

 

Meditation is of great benefit to many!

Arguing over it's sources would seem to be counter-productive.

 

warm regards

 

 

[wandelaar]

@ rene

 

The point is that we already had this discussion here several times now. And the passages in the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu that deal with meditation have been mentioned. On the basis of that there can be no reasonable doubt that Lao tzu and Chuang tzu promoted meditation. But had it turned out otherwise, than I would have been just as willing to accept that as the probable truth. After all,  meditation doesn't need the approval of Lao tzu or Chuang tzu. We can make our own choices when we see reason to do so.

Edited July 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - it's the big Stosh-show again. Why bother what Lao tzu and Chuang tzu had to say about meditation, and what we could possibly learn from it. Questioning and disputing the whole thing is much more fun...

My post was a long time ago , it revived the thread I suppose. But whether that is it or not , the contentious part is not mine , shots across the bow are coming from several others , including you!  I was quietly minding my own business.,, but thats far too sophisticated a response right? I am supposed to, If I would suit you , rudely ignore people who converse with me ,or about my post, so that , whether a challenge was correct or false , you only have one half of an argument to deal with.

Sorry , I always trend to attend to those who address me out of my own , courtesy and respect, and willingness to engage with them, not changing anytime soon boobala. 

If you think ignoring everyone or retreating has so much virtue , you should be doing that ,and not attack me. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Is it time to meditate yet?

 

[rene]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ rene

 

The point is that we already had this discussion here several times now. And the passages in the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu that deal with meditation have been mentioned. On the basis of that there can be no reasonable doubt that Lao tzu and Chuang tzu promoted meditation. But had it turned out otherwise, than I would have been just as willing to accept that as the probable truth. After all,  meditation doesn't need the approval of Lao tzu or Chuang tzu. We can make our own choices when we see reason to do so.

 

I guess you have come to your conclusions based on previous discussions here - and that you have no reasonable doubt that you are right. All I can say, with all sincerity,  is YAY YOU!!  It is a fine thing indeed to be settled on something, without any doubts whatsoever, and I wish you well on your path.

[Marblehead]

Wandelaar is way ahead of me.  I don't even know what I want to be when I grow up.

[wandelaar]

Who said "without any doubts whatsoever" ? Not me! I said that "there can be no reasonable doubt", and that's enough for me.

 

I have indeed grown past the stage of worrying about whether we know something or not. Ultimately we don't know anything. And because that applies to everything, it applies to nothing in particular. Thus actually, it doesn't matter. Scepticism of the ancient variety is a healthy thing.

 

By the way, I have just done my daily meditation.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, everything matters but nothing really matters.

 

 

[rene]

17 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Who said "without any doubts whatsoever" ? Not me! I said that "there can be no reasonable doubt", and that's enough for me.

 

I have indeed grown past the stage of worrying about whether we know something or not. Ultimately we don't know anything. And because that applies to everything, it applies to nothing in particular. Thus actually, it doesn't matter. Scepticism of the ancient variety is a healthy thing.

 

By the way, I have just done my daily meditation.

 

You're asking who?? I'm the one that said you were without any doubts whatsover, lol, you read that in my post, right?

 

Since you've decided, by your statement' that "there can be no reasonable doubt" - then you are using your belief in your statement to argue with others who hold a different opinion. I wrongly guessed you were "without any doubts whatsoever" - because for you to  intentionally create disharmony - over something you have only "no reasonable doubt" - doesn't show much growth... your middle paragraph notwithstanding. If you were "without any doubts whatsoever" - your contention would be more understandable.

 

Yay on your meditating!

Did it help?

 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

Well - harmony isn't my top priority.

 

I see you are trying to frame this issue as a question of personal belief, which it isn't. It is a question of considering the evidence. Absolute truth may well be beyond reach, but I still feel that considering the evidence is the best thing we can do. So after acknowledging that I don't know anything for sure my life still goes on pretty much as it did before.

 

As to my meditation, it helps me in keeping a clear mind and taking it easy. When I stop doing my daily meditation its healthy effects disappear within a few weeks.

Edited July 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Well - harmony isn't my top priority.

I would ask you to reconsider the importance of harmony.

 

Sure, balance can be achieved but it can never be maintained because everything is constantly changing.

 

Harmony however, allows us to change with the changes rather easily.  Meditation and then harmonizing Yin and Yang.

 

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I would ask you to reconsider the importance of harmony.

 

Sure, balance can be achieved but it can never be maintained because everything is constantly changing.

 

Harmony however, allows us to change with the changes rather easily.  Meditation and then harmonizing Yin and Yang.

 

Harmony , is it an eye for an eye? Is meditation inspired yin balancing yang , when I dominate a conversation , others must submit? 

 

I saw a guy on TV , he meditated 14 yrs in a dark cave on a mountain , to become enlightened,, which means , he was not enlightened at thirteen years 364 days, what good is fifteen minutes of staring at ones eyelids , when one opens these same eyes and goes right back to the same gut reactions of the hour before? I argued Chuang did not think much of the process, but W indicated its a settled matter , obviously , and then indicates he still has an open mind about it.

How can one find harmony with such a one who denies his own attitudes? likewise H wished to challenge my point and yet did not want to spend the time to present even one example from the book , on how Lz was 'proven' to be a rewrite of Gz? 

Frankly its exasperating , and I have no idea how to harmonize with that. 

[rene]

34 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Harmony , is it an eye for an eye? Is meditation inspired yin balancing yang , when I dominate a conversation , others must submit? 

 

I saw a guy on TV , he meditated 14 yrs in a dark cave on a mountain , to become enlightened,, which means , he was not enlightened at thirteen years 364 days, what good is fifteen minutes of staring at ones eyelids , when one opens these same eyes and goes right back to the same gut reactions of the hour before? I argued Chuang did not think much of the process, but W indicated its a settled matter , obviously , and then indicates he still has an open mind about it.

How can one find harmony with such a one who denies his own attitudes? likewise H wished to challenge my point and yet did not want to spend the time to present even one example from the book , on how Lz was 'proven' to be a rewrite of Gz? 

Frankly its exasperating , and I have no idea how to harmonize with that. 

The good news is - you dont have to.

Consider the sources, keep to your core, stay and play, or not. 

 

[Stosh]

26 minutes ago, rene said:

The good news is - you dont have to.

Consider the sources, keep to your core, stay and play, or not. 

 

Good response Rene, you saved me from delivering the next missive in line .

[wandelaar]

I don't understand how harmony might solve the problem.