Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[Rara]

On 18/05/2018 at 11:03 PM, wandelaar said:

 

As to philosophical and religious Taoism, they may not have existed as separate movements at the time of Lao tse and Chuang tse (and even Taoism itself might not have existed as a separate movement at the time) but that doesn't mean that the different terms philosophical and religious Taoism are still meaningless today.

 

No, but I think claiming to just be a "philosophical Taoist" puts one in a box a little bit. Why not enjoy it all?

 

I used to be quite defensive of being on just the philosophical path. The more I read, the more I practiced though...and then I started to realise that I was resisting too much of the "good stuff" before.

 

I'm not saying to put on a robe and make an alter. But practice and you'll find your dabbling in the "religious" anyway.

 

*Disclaimer - I dislike the term "Religious Taoism". For me, it isn't necessarily religious...depends what sect, I guess.

 

EDIT: Ok, just saw your post on page two (which I liked) I think you already get my point.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Rara

[Rara]

On 19/05/2018 at 3:07 AM, Stosh said:

 

If you want to fast your mind, maybe you could take a restful stroll along the river, or do it the other way. 

 

 

My Tai Chi teacher doesn't advocate meditation at all. Similarly, taking 30 mins to chill out has a better effect.

 

Ever heard of the term "Qigong madness"?

[Rara]

Ok, but back to the question about using Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu texts as a way to understand their meditation - I feel all the books in the world would be wasting your time.

 

As far as I know, Taoists in Wudang practice simple "mindfulness", at base level (outside of qigong/tai chi/kung fu etc.) and also claim to have the understanding of the texts down as well. So my unhelpful advice would be to ask them how they came to these conclusions.

 

They've been preserving the typical traditional teachings anyhow.

 

One would argue that the Buddhist influence is key here though, which is probably right. Maybe no one is really able to decode the TTC or Chuang Tzu properly anyway...

Edited June 1, 2018 by Rara

[wandelaar]

@ Rara

There are thousands of forms of religion and life philosophies one could possibly study but we simply haven't enough time to do so in one life time. So sooner or later you have to choose if you want to become deeply involved in one or two traditions. I personally have no problem with representing those choices by using "boxes".

 

As to the form of meditation of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu I think the most reasonable guess is that it is a form of "just sitting" or what we would now call mindfulness meditation with possibly some simple breathing exercises. Some books on that have already been mentioned.

 

[CityHermit!]

Another thing I want to add. At the time the Laozi and Zhuangzi were written, Chinese Medicine might not have been as developed as it had been by say the Han dynasty. The evolution of Taoist meditative practices may have had some correlation to that of Chinese medicine as well. I think those who pioneered the practices in the past had discovered things that they didn't immediately know what words to put with. At the same time they also probably saw value in less speech with regards to practice or cultivation of virtue, so they might have not been as eager to prioritize verbal descriptions. There's a lot to say about terminology before even considering methodology. Keep in mind that Chinese scripts and dialects also changed over time.

[wandelaar]

@ CityHermit!

 

In chapter 15 of the Chuang tzu extreme forms of energy, breathing and longevity practices are considered overly complicated. The best thing is living out ones natural span of life and accepting death when it comes.

[idquest]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ CityHermit!

 

In chapter 15 of the Chuang tzu extreme forms of energy, breathing and longevity practices are considered overly complicated. The best thing is living out ones natural span of life and accepting death when it comes.

 

Well, a slight problem here is that 'living out ones natural span of life' is not very easy to achieve for majority of people and this is exactly why most people need longevity techniques and so on. Just a reminder that daoists consider a normal life span of 120 years. Something to think about.

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, idquest said:

Well, a slight problem here is that 'living out ones natural span of life' is not very easy to achieve for majority of people and this is exactly why most people need longevity techniques and so on. Just a reminder that daoists consider a normal life span of 120 years. Something to think about.

 

This topic is not about Taoists generally but about Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. Did they also consider 120 years to be a normal span of life?

Edited June 2, 2018 by wandelaar

[CityHermit!]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

This topic is not about Taoists generally but about Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. Did they also consider 120 years to be a normal span of life?

 

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ CityHermit!

 

In chapter 15 of the Chuang tzu extreme forms of energy, breathing and longevity practices are considered overly complicated. The best thing is living out ones natural span of life and accepting death when it comes.

 

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu1.html#15

 

I'm going to take some bits from the chapter

 

"the old breath and draw in the new, practicing bear-hangings and bird-stretchings, longevity his only concern - such is the life favored by the scholar who practices Induction, the man who nourishes his body, who hopes to live to be as old as P'eng-tsu."

 

"But to attain loftiness without constraining the will; to achieve moral training without benevolence and righteousness, good order without accomplishments and fame, leisure without rivers and seas, long life without Induction; to lose everything and yet possess everything, at ease in the illimitable, where all good things come to attend - this is the Way of Heaven and earth, the Virtue of the sage. So it is said, Limpidity, silence, emptiness, inaction - these are the level of Heaven and earth, the substance of the Way and its Virtue. So it is said, The sage rests; with rest comes peaceful ease, with peaceful ease comes limpidity, and where there is ease and limpidity, care and worry cannot get at him, noxious airs cannot assault him. Therefore his Virtue is complete and his spirit unimpaired."

 

"Roused by something outside himself, only then does he respond; pressed, only then does he move; finding he has no choice, only then does he rise up."

 

"A man of light, he does not shine; of good faith, he keeps no promises. He sleeps without dreaming, wakes without worry. His spirit is pure and clean, his soul never wearied. In emptiness, nonbeing, and limpidity, he joins with the Virtue of Heaven."

 

"So it is said, If the body is made to labor and take no rest, it will wear out; if the spiritual essence is taxed without cessation, it will grow weary, and weariness will bring exhaustion."

 

So according to that translation, the chapter is called constrained in will. I quote phrases out of whole paragraphs to emphasize some distinct terms but I left that paragraph above as a whole because of the mention "constraining the will." In that paragraph it mentions "long life" without induction, induction referring to the part you mentioned about various practices which is mentioned in the snippet above the paragraph. In the same paragraph and two next snippets, terms like limpidity and inaction, or phrases like "...only then..." and "sleeps without dreaming, wakes without worry", all these basically alludes to embryonic breathing and/or Zuowang. The last snippet emphasizes not burning oneself out.

 

One other thing, how old did Pengzi allegedly live to? Off the top of my head, something like 800+ right? And Guangchengzi, see chapter 11, 1200? It's besides the point whether these people existed or if they or anyone ever lived that long, but I mention it as a reference to your question about what Laozi and Zhuangzi consider a normal life span. Now these are levels beyond normal, whether by their standard or ours, but it still represents more references to zhenren and xian seen in Zhuangzi and later works and the encouragement to be like them. Now I also want to point out the section in chapter 18 about Zhuangzi's wife's passing. It suggests an acceptance of death, yet at the same time could subtly refer to evolution and/or metempsychosis, so basically a defiance of the limitations of death as well. This leaves room for the possibility of humanity developing into perhaps greater longevity.

 

It is Zhuangzi after all, so it's going to be subtle and not say explicitly this or that in most cases. In any case, chapter 15 describes a practice of keeping one's life, if not extending it.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by CityHermit!
added one sentence

[CityHermit!]

22 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

Another thing I want to add. At the time the Laozi and Zhuangzi were written, Chinese Medicine might not have been as developed as it had been by say the Han dynasty. The evolution of Taoist meditative practices may have had some correlation to that of Chinese medicine as well. I think those who pioneered the practices in the past had discovered things that they didn't immediately know what words to put with. At the same time they also probably saw value in less speech with regards to practice or cultivation of virtue, so they might have not been as eager to prioritize verbal descriptions. There's a lot to say about terminology before even considering methodology. Keep in mind that Chinese scripts and dialects also changed over time.

Again, the development of Chinese Medicine and Taoist practices went hand in hand. The average expected lifespan of people in a time where the practice of medicine is lacking or incomplete is sure to be less than a time where it's not. So is it really a question of what should be expected according to the standard of that time, even by Laozi and Zhuangzi?

[CityHermit!]

And in Chapter 18 there are the parts with Zhuangzi and Liehzi and the skull. It seems to put a different spin on death, to say the least. Longevity and immortality aren't the same. Longevity can still end in death. Death doesn't have a prevent a good life having lived. All the same, I think many chapters do point to a kind of meditative practice towards some end or another. If not longevity, then at least dispensing with worries and the burdens that create them. In my view, and there should be some literature here and there that agree whether Taoist or not, worry and stress and the like do kill even if slowly. Lay down and live or lay down and die.

Edited June 3, 2018 by CityHermit!
removed one word

[wandelaar]

What will go on after the death of an individual is the Tao, and because each individual (whether he "follows the Tao" or not) is a manifestation of the Tao that aspect (the Tao) of the individual will never die and wasn't even born with the individual. That is the kind of immortality Chuang tzu recognizes. Not the magical and ritualistic practices that aim at extraordinary things or capabilities. At least that is how I see it, and I haven't seen anything pointing in another direction.

 

But Chuang tzu does indeed leave open the hypothetical possibility that an individual might live on after death. The thing isn't further developed though, so it seems rather like an expression of Chuang tzu's philosophical scepticism (comparable to the dream of the butterfly).

Edited June 3, 2018 by wandelaar

[CityHermit!]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

What will go on after the death of an individual is the Tao, and because each individual (whether he "follows the Tao" or not) is a manifestation of the Tao that aspect (the Tao) of the individual will never die and wasn't even born with the individual. That is the kind of immortality Chuang tzu recognizes. Not the magical and ritualistic practices that aim at extraordinary things or capabilities. At least that is how I see it, and I haven't seen anything pointing in another direction.

 

But Chuang tzu does indeed leave open the hypothetical possibility that an individual might live on after death. The thing isn't further developed though, so it seems rather like an expression of Chuang tzu's philosophical scepticism (comparable to the dream of the butterfly).

Makes sense. One way to examine it is in the context of the individual, I would imagine everyone thinks about such things some time or another. There is also a context of including others and unless humanity goes extinct we assume for the most part that humanity goes on after we die as individuals. Zhuangzi is still there after his wife passes, Zhuangzi's disciples are still there after he passes. So a continuity in the living world still has a meaning. It's been speculated that not all of the chapters of Zhuangzi are written by Zhuang Zhou and that other chapters were later added by disciples or others. One of the important parts about a kind of practice is the transmission of it. I think Laozi and Zhuangzi were very aware of that. They had a grasp of history, they had an idea of where things came from, why things were how they were where they were at, and where they will go. I think that allowed them to survive when most of the other hundred schools of thought vanished, and not just survive but rival the power of the empire and be free of it when possible. Looking at history, the work and fate of various Taoists, it seems less and less likely to me that things happened coincidentally. I think they knew what they were doing.

[flowing hands]

Academics tend to use the term 'Philosophy' to describe Daoism, because they only read the writings of Daoist sages, but more importantly tend not practice anything to do with living, breathing, Daoism. The writings of Daoist sages were the result of their practices, not the other way round.

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

Academics tend to use the term 'Philosophy' to describe Daoism, because they only read the writings of Daoist sages, but more importantly tend not practice anything to do with living, breathing, Daoism. The writings of Daoist sages were the result of their practices, not the other way round.

 

Always nice to have a straw man to trample upon...

Edited June 3, 2018 by wandelaar

[idquest]

7 hours ago, flowing hands said:

Academics tend to use the term 'Philosophy' to describe Daoism, because they only read the writings of Daoist sages, but more importantly tend not practice anything to do with living, breathing, Daoism. The writings of Daoist sages were the result of their practices, not the other way round.

 

This is a good reminder indeed - ancient texts describe results of the practice and they are not result of theoretical thinking.

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, idquest said:

This is a good reminder indeed - ancient texts describe results of the practice and they are not result of theoretical thinking.

 

Not at all! No use reminding people of the role of meditation in a topic called: "Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse". This is again fighting a straw man. There is meditation, there is thinking, there is looking around in the world as it is - and they all have a role to play in the philosophy of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. But esoteric practices are not part of their philosophy.

[Mudfoot]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 But esoteric practices are not part of their philosophy.

Can you convince anyone from a traditional lineage of daoist practice that this is the case? 

 

Or is it your opinion? 

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Can you convince anyone from a traditional lineage of daoist practice that this is the case? 

 

Or is it your opinion? 

 

No - I cannot because they claim to posses secret knowledge past down from generation to generation. That's what makes those practices esoteric. It's a matter of faith whether you accept the claim that those practices go back to Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. But as the philosophies of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu as known from the texts seem adverse to those practices I consider them as not belonging to the original doctrines of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu.

[Mudfoot]

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

No - I cannot because they claim to posses secret knowledge past down from generation to generation. That's what makes those practices esoteric. It's a matter of faith whether you accept the claim that those practices go back to Lao tzu and Chuang tzu.

A good pedigree should be both long and have famous ancestors. 

 

Why settle for less? 

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

A good pedigree should be both long and have famous ancestors. 

 

Why settle for less? 

 

I rather settle for less that is reasonably certain, than for more that is probably unfounded. 

[Mudfoot]

You are not part of a Pai, are you.... 😁 

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

You are not part of a Pai, are you.... 😁 

 

What is that?

[Mudfoot]

Traditional super secret school of how to become immortal surpreme spiritual dude. 

 

Sort of. 

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

What is that?

Lineage or order , , essentially an imaginary fabrication of similarity. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Stosh