Einstein and zhuangzi

[GOOWDAY]

Einstein and zhuangzi

 

Zhuangzi's Autumn Floods is very popular  ,In this chapter,Zhuangzi particularizes the main points of his theory of relativity , Greatness with smallness of things and space, Fast with slow of time are always  relative. 
There is saying,The concepts of modern physics surprising parallels to the ideas expressed in Taoist thought,Some questions bored me for a long time,So I decided to go back to origin and checked it out:

It is possible that Albert.Einstein  get inspiration from Zhuangzi's ideas when he build his special theory of relativity ?

 

But the difficult thing is that both of them are too hard to get a easy understanding. 

 

For example,时无止 is important concept in Zhuangzi's  relativity theory,It is no easy to understand and translate.James Legge's translation is "time never stops".Zhuangzi didn't talk about"time never stops".In Chinese expression,The meaning of 不已 is "don't stop",but 不止 contains another meaning "more than",means "Beyond a certain amount and scope".The "Time dilation " in Einstein's special theory of relativity,means 时间膨胀 in chinese,It looks like the meaning of 时无止.

 

Herbert Allen Giles,The public enemy of sinologist,His traslation is "time is endless",（ChuangTzu,Mystic,Moralist,and Social Reformer in 1889）. Albert.Einstein and his girlfriend (Mileva Marić) might read Herbert Allen Giles's traslation in college time.

 

 

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I have a little knowledge of modern physics,and I do believe there is Superlight speed .  Sometime I just curious.

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by GOOWDAY

[Michael Sternbach]

Speeds faster than light are indeed known in modern physics, e.g., due to the tunnel effect and to space warping. The speed limit as given by Special Relativity still applies, however, there are a number of ways to circumvent it.

 

Your comparison between Chuang Tzu and Einstein sounds interesting, however, I would need a better understanding of what Chuang Tzu said here in order to ascertain that they were actually talking about the same.

 

According to Special Relativity, the faster you move, the more your time flow slows down relative to your environment. Reaching the speed of light (if it were possible), time would stop for you altogether. A massive object can't do that, though, because its mass would become infinite the moment it reached c, but a photon (a particle without rest mass) naturally travels at that speed and thus experiences no passage of time.

 

I don't see the connection to Chuang Tzu right now, but it may be there.

[GOOWDAY]

Thanks for that “Speeds faster than light are indeed known in modern physics, e.g.,”

 

As I known,some taoist thought still haven't a better understanding till now.

 

In my opinion,时无止,literal meaning,can be "time expand",not "slow down".
I didn't read Einstein's paper,but somehow in some chinese articles "Time dilation"  translate to  "time expand(时间膨胀）"  。

 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I too think that Chuang Tzu knew things without understanding how he knew them.

 

He likely knew these things by looking at the true nature of things, just as he tells us to do.

 

I do know that the older one gets the slower one becomes.

 

[wandelaar]

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I do know that the older one gets the slower one becomes.

 

And time seems to speed up.

[wandelaar]

See for some cosmological thoughts:

 

 

[silent thunder]

Source is source and gives rise to all.

All phenomena arise from it and return to it.

 

Seek it from the persepctive of a tibetan buddhist and you will encounter it.

Seek it from the perspective of a taoist recluse and you will encounter it.

Seek it from the perspective of a physicist and you will encounter it.

 

Or perhaps you may not encounter it in awareness. 

 

None the less.  Source is source and we are never separate from it... ever.  No matter what we do, think, say or wei wu wei.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, GOOWDAY said:

Thanks for that “Speeds faster than light are indeed known in modern physics, e.g.,”

 

As I known,some taoist thought still haven't a better understanding till now.

 

In my opinion,时无止,literal meaning,can be "time expand",not "slow down".
I didn't read Einstein's paper,but somehow in some chinese articles "Time dilation"  translate to  "time expand(时间膨胀）"  。

 

 

Well, a stationary observer would indeed see something or somebody as getting slower as they are approaching the speed of light, but I guess you could look at that as an expansion of time as well.

[silent thunder]

This awesome conversation has reminded of Fritjoff Capra's book:  The Tao of Physics.  Where he shares his experiences of the similarities and mirroring of western physical science and ancient eastern esotericism.  Like spokes to the hub of a wheel, all phenomena stem from and return to source... it's natural that any sincerely deep enquiry would result in similarities of realization and insight.

 

He sums it up rather succinctly in the epilogue with this:

Science does not need mysticism and mysticism does not need science, but man needs both.

and the resonant nods of understanding from Heisenberg and Bohr are telling:

I had several discussions with Heisenberg. I lived in England then [circa 1972], and I visited him several times in Munich and showed him the whole manuscript chapter by chapter. He was very interested and very open, and he told me something that I think is not known publicly because he never published it. He said that he was well aware of these parallels. While he was working on quantum theory he went to India to lecture and was a guest of

Tagore. He talked a lot with Tagore about Indian philosophy. Heisenberg told me that these talks had helped him a lot with his work in physics, because they showed him that all these new ideas in quantum physics were in fact not all that crazy. He realized there was, in fact, a whole culture that subscribed to very similar ideas. Heisenberg said that this was a great help for him. Niels Bohr had a similar experience when he went to China

 

 

Werner Heisenberg's insight resonates harmonically for me with taoist realization in his quote "reality isn't stranger than you imagine, it's stranger than you can imagine.".

 

as does Niels Bohr when he expresses his understanding of quantum physics... 'everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.' 

 

These emanate the very core insights of Lao and Zhuangzi to me.  Echoes of ancient esoteric truths yet resonating from  modern, material scientific perspectives. 

 

Niels Bohr, when knighted, chose as his coat of arms the black/red yin/yang symbol, ringed by marching elephants with the latin phrase 'contraria sunt complementa' ~ opposites are complimentary.  Esoteric and Scientific are complimentary, not oppositional and like spokes to the hub of a wheel, will eventually all lead to similar truths when studies in depth and sincerity.  (this same principle applies for me in all seeming dualistic antipodal relationships... these phenomena are not experienced as oppositional conflicting separates... but two complimentary expressions of one unified phenomenal process).

 

 

[GOOWDAY]

 

@Marblehead

Your reply remind me something need to discuss at first.
 

J. S. Switzer,a US military colonel ,After retirement, he studied for master's degree in History Department of Stanford University.  He took the reading course of  Arthur F.Wright(Sinologist), In 1953 ,They discussed the question of science or no science in ancient China. After that, He wrote down  the main questions discussed in the class and send them to Einstein ,and got the reply from Einstein.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There were too much arguments about this letter .In my opinion ,Since it is related to ancient China, Translation should be considered from the history and culture of ancient China. In traditional Chinese culture, real persons, sages and wise men（真人、圣人、贤人 ）have their own meanings. Chinese sages generally refers to Confucius, Meng Zi, Zhu Xi (孔子、孟子、朱熹）etc. Some information shows ,Einstein  known the difference between the Taoism and the Confucianism, So in his opinion， Don't need  be astonished that the Chinese sages (Confucius Meng Zi Zhu Xi, etc.) did not make these steps. 
 

 

[wandelaar]

Also relevant here is the Needham Question:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Needham#Needham_Question

 

The Taoist sages also didn't take the step, probably - as I see it - because they didn't appreciate logical and rational thinking (enough).

[GOOWDAY]

At that time, Mo-tse had made a formal logic similar to Aristotle. But it seems that
Zhuangzi believes that Mohist logic is not perfect enough, and he like natural
logic. Considering the conditions at that time, They did not have those  instruments
invented in the Renaissance.

Einstein's ideas were verified  after many years. He had no qualified experimental
equipment at the time.

Edited May 20, 2018 by GOOWDAY

[wandelaar]

@ Goowday

 

What is the point you are trying to make?

 

What is natural logic?

 

Einstein's ideas about special relativity were experimentally verified even before he came up with his theory. The Lorentz transformations which mathematically capture effects such as time dilation, length contraction, and so forth were already known. What Einstein did was greatly simplifying the theories of Lorentz, Poincaré and others by deriving everything from his famous two postulates of special relativity and doing away with the Aether.

[GOOWDAY]

@ wandelaar
 

 

Sorry, I didn't want to made something on logical . There should be several logical systems. Formal logic is just one of them. Taoist logic tends to natural logic, I heard it from some old Chinese scientists.If the wording of natural logic makes you unhappy, you can ignore it.
  

Some Einstein's ideas were verified  after many years. He had no qualified experimental equipment at the time.
 

[GOOWDAY]

It seems that Taoists have forgotten to name their logic system.
 

[wandelaar]

39 minutes ago, GOOWDAY said:

Some Einstein's ideas were verified  after many years. He had no qualified experimental equipment at the time.

 

That's correct for his general theory of relativity.

[Marblehead]

35 minutes ago, GOOWDAY said:

It seems that Taoists have forgotten to name their logic system.
 

Not all of us have.

 

[wandelaar]

Wondering what Taoist logic might be like....

[Marblehead]

11 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Wondering what Taoist logic might be like....

Intuitional?

 

[GOOWDAY]

My understanding,Einstein's letter talking about the development of Western science .The Needham question related to the  standards of western scientific,It is not a question years ago. There were too much arguments on this two topics,I don't want to repeat those discussions again .So we can go back to the Zhuangzi's  theory of relativity ,

河伯曰：“然则吾大天地而小豪末，可乎？”
北海若曰“否。夫物，量无穷，时无止，分无常，终始无故。是故大知观于远近，故小而不寡，大而不多：知量无穷。证向今故，故遥而不闷，掇而不跂：知时无止。察乎盈虚，故得而不喜，失而不忧：知分之无常也。故生而不说，死而不祸：知终
始之不可故也。"

For this paragraph, more translations are needed.
 

[wandelaar]

OK - I will start another topic about Taoist logic. I think it is an interesting concept in its own right.

[GOOWDAY]

On 2018/5/20 at 7:21 PM, wandelaar said:

Wondering what Taoist logic might be like....

 

 

Taoism logic，at the beginning, it works without too much information, the form and content can be very vague, don't need sufficient conditions, the process of calculate and argument are not very deliberate. its reasoning process don't need to explain, do not judgment the right and wrong or the true and false. The contradictions are allow at begin,but they will transform each other at last. Maybe it don't look like a logical system, But it do work in the end.Taoism logic can deal with something unknown or unclear,even some invisible stuff.It allows to use some unusual way to solve problem.That is what I know.

[GOOWDAY]

There is only one rule for Taoist logic:   the natural.

[Marblehead]

Are we related?

 

[GOOWDAY]

a logic story:

Zhuangzi and Huizi had strolled on to the bridge over the river Hao,Huizi is a logician.

Zhaungzi said, " The white minnows swim leisurely, That is the pleasure of fishes." 

" You are not the fishes ," said Huizi, " how do you know the pleasure of fishes ? " 

" You are not me," retorted Zhaungzi, " how do you know that I do not know the pleasure of fishes? " 

" I'm not you, of course I cannot know what you know," urged Huizi, " You are not a fish  either,so  you cannt know the pleasure of fishes,the reasons are complete." 

" Let us go back to your original question." said Zhuangzi, "When You said, ' how do you know  the pleasure of fishes.’ That means you already knew I knew it then you asked me.  I knew it on the bridge."