The I Ching and Lao & Chuang

[wandelaar]

How does the I Ching relate to the ways of Lao tse and Chuang tse? Do they have anything to say about it? And if so, is this positive, neutral or negative?
 

[Taoist Texts]

The I-ching as the currently extant text, and the concept of hexagrams, are  not mentioned by the either of the sages and was not probably even significant or known at all to them,.  

 

However, both of them touched on the topic of divination. For Lao-zi, divination is far inferior to the intuitive knowledge of the sage-king; while ZZ ridicules it thusly:

 

Zhongni said, 'The spirit-like tortoise could show itself in a dream to the ruler Yuan, and yet it could not avoid the net of Yu Qie. Its wisdom could respond on seventy-two perforations without failing in a single divination, and yet it could not avoid the agony of having its bowels all scooped out. We see from this that wisdom is not without its perils, and spirit-like intelligence does not reach to everything. A man may have the greatest wisdom, but there are a myriad men scheming against him. Fishes do not fear the net, though they fear the pelican. Put away your small wisdom, and your great wisdom will be bright; discard your skilfulness, and you will become naturally skilful. A child when it is born needs no great master, and yet it becomes able to speak, living (as it does) among those who are able to speak.' https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/ens?searchu=divine

Edited May 22, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[wandelaar]

Thank you! Another worry gone! I can also follow the way of Lao & Chuang without the I Ching.

[Rara]

On 22/05/2018 at 6:49 AM, wandelaar said:

Thank you! Another worry gone! I can also follow the way of Lao & Chuang without the I Ching.

 

Hehe, I too am only interested in Lao & Chuang. I think I confuse people around me because I follow Tao, and people assume that I will be spiritual.

 

Well, I am.

 

But that doesn't mean I have the time for psychics, mediums and tarot cards. My ex, and her mum especially, are into all that. It's probably why we're incompatible...I'm a little to Chuang.

 

I come across as an atheist to "spiritual" people and new-agey to atheists, I imagine haha.

 

But yeah, I stand by not getting involved with much of this "magic" in Taoism. It doesn't seem authentic, nor true to the philosophy. It's a different Taoism altogether.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Rara

[wandelaar]

That's why I still consider the terms philosophical and religious Taoism very useful. There's a tendency in modern scholarship to depreciate philosophical Taoism as a western, colonial, imperialist, rationalist, etc. invention. Apparently we are to view Taoism as a kind of package deal. But I am not buying into that. Particularly Chuang tzu has much more of a freethinker than of a New Age guy. His philosophy is quite close to ancient western scepticism, and not at all like the bigotic politically correct post-modernism of today.

 

58 minutes ago, Rara said:

I come across as and atheist to "spiritual" people and new-agey to atheists, I imagine haha.

I too move around in both circles and it's quite depressing to see how little people care about what you are actually saying as opposed to what they think you must be saying on the basis of their stereotypical picture of the group they think you fit in. 

 

 

[Rara]

22 hours ago, wandelaar said:

That's why I still consider the terms philosophical and religious Taoism very useful. There's a tendency in modern scholarship to depreciate philosophical Taoism as a western, colonial, imperialist, rationalist, etc. invention. Apparently we are to view Taoism as a kind of package deal. But I am not buying into that. Particularly Chuang tzu has much more of a freethinker than of a New Age guy. His philosophy is quite close to ancient western scepticism, and not at all like the bigotic politically correct post-modernism of today.

 

I too move around in both circles and it's quite depressing to see how little people care about what you are actually saying as opposed to what they think you must be saying on the basis of their stereotypical picture of the group they think you fit in. 

 

 

 

Oh absolutely.

 

Someone said to me once that she was surprised that me and my then-girlfriend were together because she was "very spiritual" and I seemed more "pragmatic". I apologised to her for not wearing a sign and shouting about my spirituality on top of the mountains

[Lost in Translation]

On 5/21/2018 at 10:49 PM, wandelaar said:

Thank you! Another worry gone! I can also follow the way of Lao & Chuang without the I Ching.

 

You may not want to consult the I Ching as an oracle, but I highly recommend acquiring a copy or two as reference. Wilhelm/Baynes is an excellent start. Fundamental to Taoism is an acceptance of change. Observing and understanding change is the foundation of the I Ching. It is worth reading if no other reason than that.

[wandelaar]

6 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

You may not want to consult the I Ching as an oracle, but I highly recommend acquiring a copy or two as reference. Wilhelm/Baynes is an excellent start. Fundamental to Taoism is an acceptance of change. Observing and understanding change is the foundation of the I Ching. It is worth reading if no other reason than that.

 

I already have lots of books on the I Ching including the Wilhelm-version. And I have read some of them, but I found out I prefer studying Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. I don't think the I Ching gives a good picture of the way change happens. The I Ching is supposed to be superior to the modern scientific approach (which generally uses differential equations to model change). But I haven't read any convincing proof of that either.

[Lost in Translation]

I don't think the I Ching is supposed to be superior to the modern scientific approach. I don't see a need to make a comparison between the two at all.

 

At its core the I Ching shows how a thing (whatever thing you are addressing) has a natural tendency to change from one aspect of its being to its opposite. In between the change is a period of apparent rest. This is akin to the motion of a pendulum. You can see this tendency to change very clearly in the realm of politics - constantly moving from liberal to conservative and back again.

 

The 64 hexagrams distill the motions into conceptual snapshots. Their arrangement is by pairs of opposites, for example #55 (feng, Abundance) is immediately followed by #56 (Lu, the Wanderer). If you notice the arrangement of the lines they are vertically mirrored. By pairing the hexagrams one can see how change occurs, specifically how opposites reflect each other.

 

One need not use the I Ching for divination.  However, I completely respect your position and your decision and will not push the issue further.

[wandelaar]

I am still open to further study of the I Ching as a model of change as soon as I see a convincing application. The example of politics going from one extreme to the other, is quite correct. But that can already be explained and understood on the basis of the Tao Te Ching or even the picture of Yin and Yang interacting and following upon each other. I still don't see the extra value of the system of hexagrams as a model of change.

[OldDog]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I already have lots of books on the I Ching including the Wilhelm-version. And I have read some of them, but I found out I prefer studying Lao tzu and Chuang tzu. I don't think the I Ching gives a good picture of the way change happens. The I Ching is supposed to be superior to the modern scientific approach (which generally uses differential equations to model change). But I haven't read any convincing proof of that either.

 

I started out this year intent on learning more about the I Ching. My interest was not in divination but rather the I Ching as a book of wisdom. Sadly, it has been difficult to find material that looks at the I Ching as anything other than an oracle. Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong way.

 

That said, I think that there is a lot to be learned from the I Ching. Underlying all of Taoism is the notion of change and duality in the manifest world. And no better place to start than by looking in the Book of Change. While the TTC and Chuangtse does not make direct reference to the I Ching, it is hard to escape the similarity in symbolism and language between them. 

 

My frustration has been that by just reading these three writings, I was not expanding my understanding past a certain point. I guess I was just not bright enough to connect the pieces on my own. So, I began to seek other texts (classic and modern) that represented other traditions within Taoism or explored the connections. That has proved to be worthwhile effort.

 

As far as comparison if the I Ching to the Scientific Method goes I have come to see them as just different approaches. Seems to me the Scientific approach, at least from a mathematical point of view, is to take a phenomenon and try to find a mathematical construct to fit it. Whereas, the I Ching teaches to understand the fundamental principles that underlie all phenomena and observe thier transformations. From another point of view, the hexagrams themselves and rules governing transformation may be likened to mathematical formulae. So that, if one were clever enough, one could map phenomena onto the hexagram system and use the rules of transformation to understand how change in phenomena works. I'll leave it to others to decide which is superior. I just think there is more there than meets the eye. 

 

[wandelaar]

@ OldDog

 

Thank you. The idea that the hexagrams somehow (probably more qualitative than quantitative ) symbolize how things change is promising, but I haven't seen any application of the hexagrams that actually leads to a deeper understanding of change.

 

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I don't think the I Ching is supposed to be superior to the modern scientific approach. I don't see a need to make a comparison

At its core the I Ching shows how a thing (whatever thing you are addressing) has a natural tendency to change from one aspect of its being to its opposite. In between the change is a period of apparent rest. This is akin to the motion of a pendulum. You can see this tendency to change very clearly in the realm of politics - constantly moving from liberal to conservative and back again.

 

The 64 hexagrams distill the motions into conceptual snapshots. Their arrangement is by pairs of opposites, for example #55 (feng, Abundance) is immediately followed by #56 (Lu, the Wanderer). If you notice the arrangement of the lines they are vertically mirrored. By pairing the hexagrams one can see how change occurs, specifically how opposites reflect each other.

 

Politics is a good test case. Can applying the hexagrams to such swinging back and forth in politics lead to a deeper understanding of what's going on. If so I like to see it.

Edited June 6, 2018 by wandelaar

[OldDog]

20 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Can applying the hexagrams to such swinging back and forth in politics lead to a deeper understanding of what's going on.

 

Hmmm, tough question. It's difficult having a discussion that involves politics. Danger is that those discussions tend to quickly devolve to vitriolic exchange.

 

Still, in general terms, I think so. The likelihood of change has to do with a given tendency having reached an extreme in its expression. Having reached an extreme the only direction for further change is reversion, the emergence and development of its opposite; the pendulum effect. The notion of change and reversion is fundamental to the I Ching. 

 

At a detailed level, though, it is very difficult to see. There are so many different dynamics at work that it is almost impossible see how they might be playing out in terms of the fundamental nature of change described by the I Ching. But that does not mean that the fundamental rules don't apply. Just that the average mind cannot see it.

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, OldDog said:

Hmmm, tough question. It's difficult having a discussion that involves politics. Danger is that those discussions tend to quickly devolve to vitriolic exchange.

 

It doesn't need to be politics. You can pick any other example of change you like.

 

8 minutes ago, OldDog said:

Still, in general terms, I think so. The likelihood of change has to do with a given tendency having reached an extreme in its expression. Having reached an extreme the only direction for further change is reversion, the emergence and development of its opposite; the pendulum effect. The notion of change and reversion is fundamental to the I Ching. 

 

Yes - but that doesn't involve the hexagrams.

 

8 minutes ago, OldDog said:

At a detailed level, though, it is very difficult to see. There are so many different dynamics at work that it is almost impossible see how they might be playing out in terms of the fundamental nature of change described by the I Ching. But that does not mean that the fundamental rules don't apply. Just that the average mind cannot see it.

 

And so it goes... The book of the I Ching contains a lot of wisdom and using it as an oracle may be of help in finding creative/intuitive ways to deal with difficult decisions where rational deliberation is of no help, but beyond that I don't see of what use it could be.

[scribe]

Intriguing discussion, which has got me thinking about my own studies of the i ching, in contrast to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. I've found both invaluable, but for different reasons. To summarise:

 

1. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu spin poetry and narratives to disrupt habits and paint an alternative 'philosophy'. They are accessible to the extent that they are either closer to parables (Chuang Tzu) or to poetry (Lao Tzu) for me. They hint at something without being arrogant.

 

2. I use the i ching more as a divination tool than a guide to change. I have found this 'randomness' more helpful than the 'structure' it lays out - my puzzle solver nature wants to understand this structure (the relationships between lines and hexagrams, the order of symbols, the texts) but in my time, I've come to know that it's either random or expert - and beyond my mind, at the least, currently. However, the divination aspect has been useful for me on many levels - randomness as a 'tool' is often a good strategy to unlock thoughts, and certainly often better than 'logic', 'rationality' and 'sense'.

 

3. In addition, I have found there is a oddly large value to adopting a 'leap of faith', or trust, in the i ching divination process. This is the hardest to describe, but I find that to put your trust in the i ching - in the *idea* that it is "real" - leads to a stronger divination. For me, this manifests as a) more "useful" results, in that I can see how the reading relates to my situation, and 2) more "coincidence" in the results and text. I'm aware coincidence can be subjective. As part of the "leap of faith", though, I *choose* to consider such coincidences as a "link" between the i ching and myself, and by extension, myself and the universe, or the tao.

 

It is this "trust in the tao" which lies at the heart of the i ching, Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, for me. This is what they all point at - that control is meaningless, that a desire for control leads to conflict with everything.

 

(And, to note, it is this *choice* to trust the tao which Blofeld touches on in his 'Taoism' book - the option is always there to give up control.)

 

Something like that.

[ChangingYang]

On 7/21/2018 at 4:01 PM, scribe said:

In addition, I have found there is a oddly large value to adopting a 'leap of faith', or trust, in the i ching divination process. This is the hardest to describe, but I find that to put your trust in the i ching - in the *idea* that it is "real" - leads to a stronger divination. For me, this manifests as a) more "useful" results, in that I can see how the reading relates to my situation, and 2) more "coincidence" in the results and text. I'm aware coincidence can be subjective. As part of the "leap of faith", though, I *choose* to consider such coincidences as a "link" between the i ching and myself, and by extension, myself and the universe, or the tao.

 

It is this "trust in the tao" which lies at the heart of the i ching, Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, for me. This is what they all point at - that control is meaningless, that a desire for control leads to conflict with everything.

 

I have used the yijing as an oracle for many years, and I have also found this to be true.  While the yijing does give answers that often seem too eerily correct and appropriate, looking back on the decisions I've made based on the yijing, the decisions themselves never actually mattered either way.  The insights and habits I gained from reading it, and trying to understand what it was telling me, and then putting myself out there to win and fail based on the readings were the true treasures.  Now days, I've come to look at the yi as an exercise in non attachment, and trust in something beyond me.  Also, having read and reread it so many times (because I have used it as a daily oracle), the passages became internalized and pop into my head when relevant situations come up in the real world. 

I also really like Terence McKenna's interpretation of what the yijing is (I set it to start at 16:20, at a juicy part, but the whole video is worth a watch):