Taoist logic?

[wandelaar]

Is there something that might be called Taoist logic?

[thelerner]

I don't know about logic, but in action, Taoism often reflects a much more yin/passive approach, ie not showy or in the forefront.  Quietly looking at all factors and using minimal effort to get things done behind the scenes.  Not that it can't be direct, but the emphasis on subtlety and patience tends to be a favored mindset. 

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I don't know about logic, but in action, Taoism often reflects a much more yin/passive approach, ie not showy or in the forefront.  Quietly looking at all factors and using minimal effort to get things done behind the scenes.  Not that it can't be direct, but the emphasis on subtlety and patience tends to be a favored mindset. 

 

Yes - that's also how I see it.

 

But Taoist logic - if it exists - should be a form of reasoning that shares some of the typical characteristics of Taoism. Because formal reasoning is looked down upon in Taoism, in a strict sense Taoist logic would be impossible. (That's why I wrote "some" .) But in a wider sense perhaps there could be something like Taoist logic. I have made a quick Google search, and am currently reading the finds. I will post the most interesting links when I am ready.

[wandelaar]

This pdf gives an impression of what Taoist logic might be (but doesn't go deep enough to actually add something to what we already know):  http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.103.134&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Edited May 20, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

Its not taoist logic to pose questions ,the answers to which one always argues. 

[wandelaar]

Haven't found anything more.

[LAOLONG]

One.

One is one so two

One is two so three

And so on .........

[wandelaar]

0 = {}

1 = {0}

2 = {0,1}

3 = {0,1,2}

...

[Marblehead]

zero < one

 

[voidisyinyang]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

0 = {}

1 = {0}

2 = {0,1}

3 = {0,1,2}

...

 

Daoist Logic has been rediscovered as noncommutative geometry that is also explained by music theory.

 

So first of all there is no zero - this was a later creation - the Wuji is actually "undivided yin-yang" as Yuan Qi or the T'ai Chi.

So then the One is also not a number - what this means is the One as spirit does not experience space nor time.

And yet as it is stated, since we can speak of the one that means there is also 2 and if 2 there is one and 2 as three.  So the secret to this is actually not speech but instead listening to harmony as music theory. So the "one" is the fundamental pitch or root tonic - and so we call it C as geometry. The octave of C is then the one as the 2 - but it's the same pitch. And so 3 is then yin-yang that is undivided with the 2 because 3 is G as 3/2, the overtone harmonic as Perfect Fifth pitch while 3 is F as 2/3, the undertone harmonic as Perfect Fifth. Since they are both Perfect Fifth then 3 is yang but it has a different frequency and wavelength - and so it is the "undivided yin-yang" as the T'ai Chi. Where is the yin then? The 2/3 as C to F is the subharmonic and so it is "doubled" back into the same octave of the 1 and 2 of C - which then means the 3 as the subharmonic becomes the new 1 as the F, root tonic - or 4/3 as C to F harmonic. And so since 2 does not line up with 3 this process of yin and yang goes on infinitely. We see a different visual geometry of 2/3 and 3/2 as C to F and C to G - but since they are both the Perfect Fifth, then the seemingly "yin" of the subharmonic C to F, is actually Harmonized as Listening back into the T'ai Chi of 3 as the undivided yin-yang, also called the Single Perfect Yang as the yuan qi.

 

Quote

"If then all things are One, what room is there for speech? On the other hand, since I can say the word 'one' how can speech not exist? If it does exist, we have One and speech -- two; and two and one -- three(14) from which point onwards even the best mathematicians will fail to reach (the ultimate); how much more then should ordinary people fail?">"

 

- Chuang Tzu, 300 BCE

 

 

[thelerner]

Interesting.  Wonder if it'd make more sense if I heard it, instead of read it..

[wandelaar]

YouTube perhaps?

[Marblehead]

35 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Interesting.  Wonder if it'd make more sense if I heard it, instead of read it..

Consider that the thought is one?

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Voidisyinyang is on the right track.

 

Taoist "logic" is perfect, pre-literate, simultaneous.

 

TaijiTu is not showing a "progression" or "sequence".

 

It is not linear causality, and not a "time line".

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Voidisyinyang is on the right track.

 

Taoist "logic" is perfect, pre-literate, simultaneous.

 

TaijiTu is not showing a "progression" or "sequence".

 

It is not linear causality, and not a "time line".

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

Thank you - I had wanted to clarify yes - I said frequency and wavelength but it is the West that measures time as spatial wavelength - except again now with quantum relativity or noncommutative geometry - the Daoist alchemy truth is being validated.

 

So the noncommutative phase is pure time and frequency energy - but it is in 2 places at the same time as noncommutative phase. This is also what "nondual" means. It literally means - advaita - as "not-two" but the West converts this to mean "the one." Actually the "one" is "not-two" or meaning in 2 places at the same time. Or again in music theory - you have G=3=F at the same time as the Perfect Fifth (undivided yin-yang).

 

So in physics this is called "subwavelength" or "reverse time" - you have light as the one but then light has relativistic mass which is the sub-wavelength of the light. When light is turned back on itself it does not have any zero rest mass because it has relativistic mass from the future! So we are told light has no mass but actually light has relativistic mass. So, for example, in water, you have the same frequency of electromagnetic energy but since the water is more dense then air then it has a sub-wavelength - and this causes a higher momentum (energy) even though it's the same frequency of energy. So in terms of music theory - the pitch is the same but the frequency and wavelength changes. But since it is a higher energy than light - it is actually a virtual photon from the future as noncommutative phase that is superluminal- and this is captured back inside the body - the water combines with the microtubules in collagen and "captures" this superluminal phase energy as yuan qi.

 

So that is one physical example that Dr. Mae-Wan Ho details as a Taoist philosopher of science - of literally energy from the future that is faster than light. We, in the West do not normally think in these terms. But actually the ancient spiritual healers knew this truth already.

 

Quote

I feel that the past, and the present and the future is all in one state. They’re operating at different frequency levels. It isn’t the past here, the present here and the future here. We are all at one state. The past, present and future are all here. That’s why some people have deja vu….

– Qigong Grandmaster Effie P. Chow

 

So yes the Yuan Qi is an eternal present but the light as consciousness - visions of the future and changing the past - it is all happening at the same time of the Yuan Qi so that matter is actually relativistic mass of light and so all particles of mass are actually light - but guided by the Yuan Qi as undivided yin-yang, this eternal process as the 5th dimension, called noncommutative phase in Western science.

 

Yes if we listen to this - it means we listen Faster than Fourier Uncertainty - which is the conversion of spatial measurement into time-frequency. So because time and frequency are noncommtutative - science can inherently NOT measure them at the same time. This is called Fourier Uncertainty or Time-frequency Uncertainty. Science now says the whole Universe began from a phase-shift due to time-frequency uncertainty. But it is NOT true for listening.

 

Chapter 41 of the Dao De Jing can be translated as "the highest note that can not be heard."

 

This is the secret of the listening - so as the time gets shorter then the frequency gets higher and if you compare the "root tonic" with the higher frequency - as you shift the time to being shorter - by measuring time as a "time line" or spatial wavelength - then the frequency becomes increasingly uncertain. It would literally take an infinite amount of time to precisely measure a specific frequency of 3/2 or 2/3 - because the West assumes that frequency has to be measured as a spatial wavelength. But if we listen to the natural harmonics - again the frequency shifts up in pitch as the time gets shorter and shorter. Based on WEstern science the frequency should just spread into an infinite broadband as the time gets less and less - but this is not what happens when we listen. Instead the fundamental pitch just shifts a Perfect Fifth or 3/2. So the reason this happens is because the noncommutative phase is FASTER than the "uncertainty" of the spatial measurement - it is actually nonlocal phonon energy - this faster than light energy is actually energy that we can listen to - phonon or acoustic oscillation energy.

 

So quantum biology has realized that it is phonon vibrations that enable non-local faster than light signals at room temperature as quantum coherence. So quite literally - the highest sound we can hear externally then resonates the brain as ultrasound which in turn resonates the microtubules of collagen as quantum nonlocal energy - that is Yuan Qi or in two places at the same time as the 5th dimension. Quantum physics thought this was impossible - to have a warm, room temperature "noisy" environment as the human body or life actually relying on quantum entanglement - that is in 2 places at the same time - it did not seem possible. But again the secret is the harmonic resonance as noncommutative phase vibrations.

 

So then in Daoist Logic - this means all of reality is based on this undivided yin-yang. For example for males - the right hand goes with the left foot (at the same time - nonlocally as noncommutative phase) and the right hand is yin and so goes with the upper body which is yang. The left eye is the yin qi and the right eye is the yang qi (at the same time through the third eye as the yuan qi).

 

But in Western logic, ever since Plato, we are taught that there is "two-ness" that is symmetric and before counting. In other words "two-ness" is a "set" that is not a counting number - but an ideal concept. Ao this was defined as precisely based on the two eyes as a symmetric set and the two hands as a symmetric set and the two feet as a symmetric set of "two-ness." So this is why Western logic is wrong - because this "two-ness" concept as symmetry is then used to justify symmetric mathematics of irrational magnitude and logarithms, etc. Then we are told that Western math "works" and so it must be true! If you dig deep into Western math discussions they admit their logic is circular and faulty and unprovable - as Godel demonstrated. And yet they say - since the math "works" it must be consistent - even though it's logical truth can only be demonstrated as an applied science that "works." haha. Well does it really "work"? That I guess is a subjective opinion.

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I still view time as linear so I guess I'm a mix of Daoist and Western logic.

 

[wandelaar]

21 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But Taoist logic - if it exists - should be a form of reasoning that shares some of the typical characteristics of Taoism. Because formal reasoning is looked down upon in Taoism, in a strict sense Taoist logic would be impossible. (That's why I wrote "some" .) But in a wider sense perhaps there could be something like Taoist logic.

 

Maybe time to ask again. As I said logic by definition is a kind of reasoning. Now it may be that one doesn't like reasoning or that one thinks reasoning (particularly of the formal type) is antithetical to Taoism. That's all right with me. In that case there simple is no Taoist logic. And that would be your answer to my question.

 

But if there are forms of Taoist logic than they have to be forms of reasoning, for if not the term logic (as currently used) would be inappropriate.

 

As I happen to know something about mathematics and physics the post of voidisyinyang on first sight looks like the right thing to delve into. But unhappily it's an illogical jumble of words. Take this:

 

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

But in Western logic, ever since Plato, we are taught that there is "two-ness" that is symmetric and before counting. In other words "two-ness" is a "set" that is not a counting number - but an ideal concept. Ao this was defined as precisely based on the two eyes as a symmetric set and the two hands as a symmetric set and the two feet as a symmetric set of "two-ness." So this is why Western logic is wrong - because this "two-ness" concept as symmetry is then used to justify symmetric mathematics of irrational magnitude and logarithms, etc. Then we are told that Western math "works" and so it must be true! If you dig deep into Western math discussions they admit their logic is circular and faulty and unprovable - as Godel demonstrated. And yet they say - since the math "works" it must be consistent - even though it's logical truth can only be demonstrated as an applied science that "works." haha. Well does it really "work"? That I guess is a subjective opinion.

 

This is the typical pick and choose of somebody who doesn't know what he is talking about, but nevertheless thinks he knows better than more than two millennia of Western mathematics. Gödel used formal logic of the Western type, so if that type of logic is wrong how can you accept his proof as correct? And what on earth is "symmetric mathematics of irrational magnitude and logarithms"? And yes - I know what irrational magnitudes and logarithms are.

Edited May 21, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aletheia]

34 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I still view time as linear so I guess I'm a mix of Daoist and Western logic.

 

 

In everyday experience we are always already reaching ahead of ourselves in anticipation of what will become. Likewise there's a retention of what has been. What opens up as the gathering of future and past is the temporal event horizon of the present, which is the spatial zone where entities encounter one another!

 

So the myth of creation is not something which occurred in the corridor of time with sequential causal nexus. It's an on going singular event!

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

This is the typical pick and choose of somebody who doesn't know what he is talking about

 

It's in The Parmenides (Being and not Being). As Heidegger noted the nothing is more original than the logical not of negation which are later additions of meta-physics (Plato).

 

 

 

 

 

[Aletheia]

https://youtu.be/fzW7L-8_d_g?t=596

[wandelaar]

@ Aletheia

 

Good video! Do you happen to know a readable text that relates this to Taoist thought?

 

[Aletheia]

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@ Aletheia

 

Good video! Do you happen to know a readable text that relates this to Taoist thought?

 

 

It doesn't relate to Taoist thought unless one deconstructs western metaphysics to the presocratics -- a two-fold archaeological process, both within and without -- meditation and cultural understanding -- both meet at the same place as nondualism.

 

Logic is a mutation of the logos with the logos being the place of cosmic gathering in union with heaven and earth. The nothing/void is the eternal dynamic coupling of opposites yin and yang, the same as difference in spiritual ecstasy.

 

Western philosophy thinks with propositions i.e. the correctness of assertions.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

In western metaphysics ideal objects are beyond experience i.e. triangles. They are a priori with perfect form uncorrupted by the temporal process.

 

Yuan (jing/qi/shen) might be the equivalent to a prioris of western metaphysics.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

Quote

These terms are used with respect to reasoning (epistemology) to distinguish "necessary conclusions from first premises"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_knowledge

Edited May 21, 2018 by Aletheia

[Aletheia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premise

[Aletheia]

So in western metaphysics truth is given by the strength of assertions corresponding to the state of affairs. A type of questioning which gives certain conclusions.