What role does faith play in the taoist perspective?

[Trunk]

“ discernment “  is a good word to throw into the mix .

also “ working theory based on experience so far “,  like science always leaves room for uncertainty and evolving understanding not fixed beliefs.

 

 do the practice get the results ,  much like push-ups ...  belief is secondary if not irrelevant .  

 

 stilling the mind is much more fundamental, than what to think .

 

 my two cents 

[liminal_luke]

Daoism, as I understand it, requires tremendous faith.  It`s not a doctrinal faith like Christianity, none of this "accept Christ as your personal savoir, go to heaven" business.  Nobody will ask you to sign on the dotted line that you believe there are five elements that relate to each other as specified in Chinese medical theory.  You won`t be required to carry around the Tao De Ching.  At least not by me.

 

What you do have to do is trust the earth.  Years ago I took a workshop in Chi Nei Tsang, a form of bodywork based on Daoist principles, from Gilles Marin.  He had everybody stand up and really feel way the ground supported us, to allow ourselves to sink further and further into connection with the ground with every exhale.  Almost none of us go through life trusting the earth to hold us up.  We tense up in fear, unwilling to give ourselves over to nature. 

 

If you can begin to trust the earth, other things will begin to happen.  It takes a certain kind of faith to let go into the calm and stillness that will emerge.  Do you have the basic trust to surrender to your own essential nature?  

[Marblehead]

I trust my chair.

 

[Starjumper]

I had faith in my teachers.  I had faith in a friend who was a close disciple of Sai Baba.

[OldDog]

The search for truth is the search for.meaning. Sooner or later we all end up asking what it is that we accept as true. It has nothing to do with proof but everything to do with meaning. In our individual searches, if something relates to our experiences that is all the validation we need. This is the basis of belief.

 

Daoism fits in nicely with this. It is well suited as a personal guide. It asks nothing, demands nothing, yet is always there to help add perspective to our experiences and in this it never fails.

 

We are not the first to tread this path. The sages before us have all gone thru the same process. We are fortunate that they recorded their understandings and they have come down to us to help us make sense of it all. We do not have to take it on faith. It can be realized in our own experiences.

 

Just a couple of cents worth.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

I never dated faith but if she wants to play with my Taoist perspective. ( I am giving faith a role as a woman)

 

 

A seed of Faith has however been planted. Faith on the method. Faith on the direction. Faith on the possibility to become a better person and refine my character on each step of the way.

 

To cultivate the mood before cultivating the medicine; to cultivate the character before cultivating the good medicine; when the mind is steady, the medicine will come naturally by itself; when the mood and character have been cultivated, good medicine will be in reach." 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[Marblehead]

I still prefer confidence.  She was and still is a good old gal.

 

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/5/25 at 4:16 PM, Boundlesscostfairy said:

 

 

Mindfulness is the heart of meditation.. so my opinion of mindfulness is to truly ask ones self "what do I want to do?" And from there go with the flow..

 

If the flow matches what you want to do.. then granted your on the path to Buddhahood.

 

 

It is mindlessness the heart of meditation , not mindfulness no matter how hot this concept prevailing.  Mindlessness means your mind paying  attention to nowhere, no-time , no-form , no-step, no-dimension... ; in that sense , even ‘having faith’  is a blockade lied there limiting you .

 

Some people think that because Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam..all preach love, kindness to people, faithful towards your friends ...etc ,  then they are nearly the same ,   unfortunately what  they miss  is the  big difference of  a  mind/ Mind how these religions to attain those   kindness  and faith !

 

Notice that it is because of our capability in  playing those   no-time , no- dimension... a mind of foretelling the future and   knowing what really happened in the past  is possible . Comparing to this, Visualizations   , those most  'masters',  'psychics'  and 'Messiah'  advocate   to attain  a  3rd-eye look   trivial. It is you chop time into intervals, and call them  ‘future’, ‘past’ ..that make your mind  limited  and entangled , and  you  suffer in them..

 

Mindfulness are  , sorry  to say ,   just those trivial tricks  using in   " soothing  kids not  to cry"  ( 止小兒啼哭)  as many  Buddhist writings always like to say. Hardly can it thoroughly  solve any real problems in our cultivation or meditations. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[yugenphoenix]

Agree with you and I’m finally beginning to realize this with some help from reading Tom Campbell’s “My Big TOE” trilogy.  That no focus is the cruicible of intuition and knowledge on the path. That age old just let go the reins to find the truth. Also reading some Taisen Deshimaru.  The Zen of no path and no goal. Less and less is more. Not looking and you find. 

[dawei]

On 7/19/2018 at 5:05 PM, liminal_luke said:

What you do have to do is trust the earth. 

 

I'm curious how one can not trust the earth...  

 

But I also think the topic is kind of the wrong question with a focus on trust, but the word I'll use may be controversial: Surrender.

 

Surrender is not giving up to mindless logical understanding as it is not of the mind... it is in the heart that one finds no separation and thus the deepest trust called surrender.

 

I was greatly affected by my Medical Qigong master who would with a completely open heart say, 'accept everything... reject nothing'...

 

This is my meaning of surrender.  

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, dawei said:

'accept everything... reject nothing'...

 

This is my meaning of surrender.  

I'm not there yet.  Likely never will be.

 

[rideforever]

Faith : Willingness to be constructive

I wake up and I try to do something positive, there is something inherently good in living.

 

Faith : Confidence from Experience

Praying every day I begin to feel something inside, a light, God, and continuing it grows.   This leads to confidence and then faith.

 

Faith : love of self

Deeply within I wish to be, I have confidence in me.

 

Faith : hope

No matter the outer conditions I feel hope and I act as if there is hope of salvation.

 

When enough light has entered you, there is no turning back, there is only light.

[Marblehead]

All that sounds like confidence to me.  No need for faith or hope.

 

[yugenphoenix]

“Surrender everything.

Give up your body, your thoughts, all the things that bind you,

whatever problems you may believe you have.

Surrender them to your favorite deity.

You are emptying yourself out as you do this.

Do a lot of it.

Become humble.

Have a tremendous humility.

If you can just do that you will become a favorite of God

and you'll not have to search any longer.

But of course the choice is always yours.

What are you chasing in life?

What are you going after?

What are the things that interest you?

Whatever you put first in your life, that's where your heart is.

All of the things that have transpired in your life up to now,

forget them.

Be aware all of the time that there are no mistakes.

There is nothing from the past that can interfere with your life if

you become devotional and have faith in God.

You'll be automatically protected from anything.

And if you have enough faith, you can totally remove all karmic aspects of your life.

You can transcend all of karma.

You can make life easier for yourself, if you have faith.

No thing in existence has a particular cause; the entire universe contributes to the existence of even the smallest thing; nothing could be as it is without the universe being what it is.

All is well.

You are really not your body or your mind-phenomena.

You are absolute reality, consciousness. “

 

This is a quote from Robert Adams I found somewhere and it’s very inspiring to me. Faith and surrender are not easy for me but maybe something we all need at some point on the path. 

 

[Marblehead]

I will never surrender.  You will have to pry this weapon from my cold dead hands.

 

 

[OldDog]

In one sense faith is not necessary ... not in the sense of accepting something as true or meaningful without validation. I think this is what makes daoism appealing. Each of us has the ability to validate the notions of daoism directly ... through our own being and sense of unity with existence. One can argue that it takes a leap of faith to take a step toward that validation but the truth and meaning are there and accessible. 

[freeform]

Be careful applying Christian ideas to Taoism - it will muddy the water. 

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Be careful applying Christian ideas to Taoism - it will muddy the water. 

Totally agree.

 

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Totally agree.

 

 

My Spanish friend once made me an incredibly tasty soup - gazpacho. It’s basically a cold, raw tomato soup and surprisingly delicious.

 

He gave me the recipe which was very precise and really simple. But of course I couldn’t help but add an ingredient or two to see if I could improve it. 

 

How do you think it turned out?

 

Actually - not that bad. But it wasn’t gazpacho. It lost its delicacy. That special something that made it really sing.

 

Imagine if I pass on my variation of the recipe to another friend and they change it slightly and pass it on. And so on for many years. That original gazpacho would be lost.

 

I find it really sad because this is how these ancient systems of spirituality are lost. Little by little people add, subtract and manipulate things to fit their world view over time. And this isn’t not just a recipe for soup but a system for profoundly deep spiritual transformation. 

 

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Be careful applying Christian ideas to Taoism - it will muddy the water. 

 

Absolutely! Even trying to address this thread ... just saying the word "faith" is difficult. Being raised Christian you can't escape the meaning of the word.

 

One othe things that has happened to me over the last year is that I have become quite sensitive to other religious influences on translated material. Since I don't read Chinese I just have to proceed carefully.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

an incredibly tasty soup - gazpacho

 

I'll take my gazpacho straight up. Or better yet ... make mine a michelada!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-07-26 at 6:16 PM, freeform said:

It lost its delicacy. That special something that made it really sing.

 

Imagine if I pass on my variation of the recipe to another friend and they change it slightly and pass it on. And so on for many years. That original gazpacho would be lost.

 

I find it really sad because this is how these ancient systems of spirituality are lost. Little by little people add, subtract and manipulate things to fit their world view over time. And this isn’t not just a recipe for soup but a system for profoundly deep spiritual transformation. 

 

 

I agree and yet i cant help myself sorta disagreeing (i think Marbs might be a good bad influence on me) thinking that what you said also cuts two ways:

 

Keep the original recipe lest it will be lost, but if you do not give it a little space to contract and expand as needed it’ll soon be lost as well.

All recipes, strategies and ”truths” (looking for a better word so salt it to taste hehe...) have an end date, if they do not adapt they risk ending up hollowed out of the experience itself. You know how to make Gazpacho, you tried to make gazpacho a la freeform and it wasn’t that bad although it didn’t sing like the capital G one. Perhaps it needed something to balance the new addition a little?

Respect the heart of the Gazpacho and, i risk sounding like a fortune cookie here but i go for the full Yoda or bust, everything you make from that angle will be Gazpacho at heart, even if it’s sizzling hot and full of ketchup.

 

Thats what i think is the teaching. Certain things are strict but when strictness culminates it becomes stiff and useless. Attain the heart by compassion and understanding and there will be no need to forcibly conquer it...

 

he said waxing poetic on the first night of waning moon this fine heatwave summer of 2018, Mad Dog year.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-07-19 at 6:43 PM, steve said:

It's not my intention to define truth or equate it with experience or perception.

 

Of course, i didn’t mean to put words in your mouth, i was sharpening the semantics for pointmaking, sorry.

 

On 2018-07-19 at 6:43 PM, steve said:

I think the distinction between belief and faith is more about finding balance between conceptual and non-conceptual directions in our spiritual practices.

 

Word up steve, that is very well put!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-07-25 at 1:12 PM, Marblehead said:

I will never surrender.  You will have to pry this weapon from my cold dead hands.

 

Hey hey hey, are you quoting that-astronaut-who-got-in-trouble-with-the-apethorities-for-instigating-all-sorts-of-mischief at us?

Guns dont kill people, monkeys do [if they’ve got a gun]

[Marblehead]

Just now, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Hey hey hey, are you quoting that-astronaut-who-got-in-trouble-with-the-apethorities-for-instigating-all-sorts-of-mischief at us?

Guns dont kill people, monkeys do [if they’ve got a gun]

Actually, that was a Marine creed before anyone else pretended it was theirs.

 

To kill with a gun there must first be intent. Load, safety off, aim, squeeze the trigger.

 

Of course, there are the "accidents" where a child of 8 years shoots his sister without understanding what is going to happen when the trigger is pulled.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Actually, that was a Marine creed before anyone else pretended it was theirs.

 

To kill with a gun there must first be intent. Load, safety off, aim, squeeze the trigger.

 

Of course, there are the "accidents" where a child of 8 years shoots his sister without understanding what is going to happen when the trigger is pulled.

 

 

I had no idea, thanks for that, i like the phrase and ignorant as i am i thought Oldman Man was the modern source for it.

 

Well, sounds to me you’re saying that for someone with common sense and a little experience it’s impossible to just shoot someone by accident.

The same is valid for a knife, it’s basically impossible to knife someone to death without intent, knowledge and/or effort.

I’m prone to thinking theres accidents and ”accidents”, like say children and/or fools who don’t have common sense and end up shooting someone and those who claim that they shot such and such by accident to mitigate punishment or the like. Also, i think pistols ought to be more prone to fire wide spreads or strays compared to rifles, especially with inexperienced or careless shooters. Idk, i’ve never shot anything more serious than arrows and bbs, always for fun and focus.