What role does faith play in the taoist perspective?

[CityHermit!]

So in light of more recent comments regarding Taoism and Christianity, any thoughts on Tianshi?

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

any thoughts on Tianshi?

I declare ignorance of Tianshi.

 

[OldDog]

17 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

... Certain things are strict but when strictness culminates it becomes stiff and useless. Attain the heart by compassion and understanding and there will be no need to forcibly conquer it...

 

Well said!  As Chuangetse observes ...

 

Words are used to express meaning, when you understand the meaning, you can forget about the words. Where can I find a man who forgets about words to talk with him?

 

Strict interpretationist views leave little room for discussion.

 

Also, your expanding on the gazpacho analogy (lol) demonstrates the usefulness of such devices as humor, poetry, etc, in getting a point across. It just made a fun read and kept us from taking a point too seriously. Thanks!

[Marblehead]

Yeah, let's not take things too seriously.  It's only life, you know.  And we all know that's just temporary.

 

[CityHermit!]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I declare ignorance of Tianshi.

 

Tianshi Dao, the Celestial Master sect. There's a lot about them that had semblance to Christianity and they developed as contemporaries somewhat as well.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, CityHermit! said:

Tianshi Dao, the Celestial Master sect. There's a lot about them that had semblance to Christianity and they developed as contemporaries somewhat as well.

Thanks.  At least now I'm not totally ignorant.  I likely wouldn't have much interest in it.

 

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Thanks.  At least now I'm not totally ignorant.  I likely wouldn't have much interest in it.

 

It's sort of where religious Taoism began, though some earlier examples which occur not that much further back may be arguable. Some of the similarities are very curious.

[moment]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:40 AM, Marblehead said:

All that sounds like confidence to me.  No need for faith or hope.

 

 

You and I have had a friendly sparring on faith before. Here I go again: Confidence is faith. 

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

It's sort of where religious Taoism began, though some earlier examples which occur not that much further back may be arguable. Some of the similarities are very curious.

When I first started reading Taoist literature I did try to go into the religious aspects of the philosophy but I had to put it down.  It's me, my choice, of course.  I'm just not meant to be a religious person.  (I had already been calling myself an Atheist at the time.)

 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, moment said:

 

You and I have had a friendly sparring on faith before. Here I go again: Confidence is faith. 

I'm going to be light on you this time.

 

Yes, confidence is faith in one's capacities and capabilities.

 

But then, "show and tell time" offers the same results without faith.

 

 

[CityHermit!]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

When I first started reading Taoist literature I did try to go into the religious aspects of the philosophy but I had to put it down.  It's me, my choice, of course.  I'm just not meant to be a religious person.  (I had already been calling myself an Atheist at the time.)

 

It's not something I am advocating either, but its difficult to avoid the subject if learning about Chinese and Taoist history. Again, some of the similarities are very curious and I may be overlooking something in the literature out there but I haven't seen a thorough analysis of it yet. It could mean something from a geographical/cultural diffusion process at the least.

[moment]

41 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I'm going to be light on you this time.

 

Yes, confidence is faith in one's capacities and capabilities.

 

But then, "show and tell time" offers the same results without faith.

 

41 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

 

I'm going to be light on you this time.

 (I appreciate that.  I shall return the favor).

Yes, confidence is faith in one's capacities and capabilities.

(Tao is between insecurity and confidence).

But then, "show and tell time" offers the same results without faith.

(The Tao has no show and tell time).

 

Anything outside of Tao is an operation of faith.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

It's not something I am advocating either, but its difficult to avoid the subject if learning about Chinese and Taoist history. Again, some of the similarities are very curious and I may be overlooking something in the literature out there but I haven't seen a thorough analysis of it yet. It could mean something from a geographical/cultural diffusion process at the least.

It is my understanding that when the religion of Taoism was officially recognized the religion was required to be based on the format of the Buddhist religion.  And then translators came along and many of them added Christian influences.

 

And this is why I returned to the only the philosophy.

 

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, moment said:

 

I'm going to be light on you this time.

 (I appreciate that.  I shall return the favor).

Yes, confidence is faith in one's capacities and capabilities.

(Tao is between insecurity and confidence).

But then, "show and tell time" offers the same results without faith.

(The Tao has no show and tell time).

 

Anything outside of Tao is an operation of faith.

 

We will never agree on this but at least we are being civil about it.

 

Faith and hope, in my opinion, are rooted in the concept of a higher power that hears your prayers and might grant your wishes.

 

It's not one of my capabilities to go there.  I am an Atheist, after all.

 

 

[CityHermit!]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

It is my understanding that when the religion of Taoism was officially recognized the religion was required to be based on the format of the Buddhist religion.  And then translators came along and many of them added Christian influences.

 

And this is why I returned to the only the philosophy.

 

 

Well, if anyone wants to say otherwise feel free but I'm pretty sure that the early Tianshi was very unlike Buddhism. Some later sects, such as Lingbao and Quanzhen much much later, did resemble Buddhism more. Tianshi, I would say not. The thing is also the Tianshi embodied some things similar to Christianity before the first Council of Nicea. Buddhism, although present, when the Tianshi began also wasn't nearly as established as much as some centuries later either, so in other words Tianshi was probably better established first.

[CityHermit!]

A number of things about the Tianshi sect, a hereditary papal lineage, holy water, confessions, rituals and magic including control of spiritual armies not unlike angels, sex including ritual sex, tithes in the form of pecks of rice, liturgies, demonology, etc. Sounds a lot more like Christianity than Buddhism to me. They didn't do much in the way of meditation either if I am not mistaken. It's also said that Zhang DaoLing was born in 33 A.D. or so.

[Marblehead]

42 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Well, if anyone wants to say otherwise feel free but I'm pretty sure that the early Tianshi was very unlike Buddhism. Some later sects, such as Lingbao and Quanzhen much much later, did resemble Buddhism more. Tianshi, I would say not. The thing is also the Tianshi embodied some things similar to Christianity before the first Council of Nicea. Buddhism, although present, when the Tianshi began also wasn't nearly as established as much as some centuries later either, so in other words Tianshi was probably better established first.

I have run out of information.  Back-up data drive got wiped out.

 

But I will offer a question:  Was Tainshi recognized by the Emperor?  My recall is that it was only after Taoist religion structured itself similar to Buddhism that it was recognized.

[Marblehead]

36 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

A number of things about the Tianshi sect, a hereditary papal lineage, holy water, confessions, rituals and magic including control of spiritual armies not unlike angels, sex including ritual sex, tithes in the form of pecks of rice, liturgies, demonology, etc. Sounds a lot more like Christianity than Buddhism to me. They didn't do much in the way of meditation either if I am not mistaken. It's also said that Zhang DaoLing was born in 33 A.D. or so.

Yes, that would be way too dogmatic for me.  Religious nonsense for controlling the people.

 

[CityHermit!]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I have run out of information.  Back-up data drive got wiped out.

 

But I will offer a question:  Was Tainshi recognized by the Emperor?  My recall is that it was only after Taoist religion structured itself similar to Buddhism that it was recognized.

Zhang Lu was the third Celestial Master and gained favor with Cao Cao during the Three Kingdoms period, so by aligning with Wei the Celestial Master sect thrived. There was of course further chaos after the fall of Wei to Jin and the gradual dissolution to the Jin but the Tianshi survived and even though declined from favor compared to growing sects like Lingbao and Shangqing they experienced a kind of revival under the Zhengyi sect. There's still the lineage of Celestial Master popes today apparently.

[Marblehead]

Thanks.  There's a little recall but not enough to put anything together.  The only thing that comes to my mind is that, if I recall properly, Taoism was declared the official Chinese religion during the T'ang dynasty.  After the fall of the T'ang China went back to Buddhism.

 

But anyhow, I gave up on both Buddhism and religious Taoism.   

 

[moment]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

We will never agree on this but at least we are being civil about it.

 

Faith and hope, in my opinion, are rooted in the concept of a higher power that hears your prayers and might grant your wishes.

 

It's not one of my capabilities to go there.  I am an Atheist, after all.

 

 

We are civil people. Since there are many higher powers in the universe, I assume you mean a personified/religious higher power.  I am not religious and I do not believe in religious faith either.  I do believe though that atheism is just the flip side of the coin from religious faith.  I am not picking at you.  I am trying to point toward something for both of us.  My communication skills are probably not up to it though.

Edited July 29, 2018 by moment

[CityHermit!]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Thanks.  There's a little recall but not enough to put anything together.  The only thing that comes to my mind is that, if I recall properly, Taoism was declared the official Chinese religion during the T'ang dynasty.  After the fall of the T'ang China went back to Buddhism.

 

But anyhow, I gave up on both Buddhism and religious Taoism.   

 

Something like that. Again, the Tianshi were accepted as official by Wei but that was a tumultuous period. By the Tang the Lingbao and Shangqing came into being too and I think it was these latter schools that held more sway than Tianshi did during the Tang. Even with Buddhist clout during the Song, the Tianshi reformed and was absorbed into the Zhengyi while Quanzhen was founded too. But you've probably seen this at some point or another so I post it for other readers.

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, moment said:

We are civil people. Since there are many higher powers in the universe, I assume you mean a personified/religious higher power.  I am not religious and I do not believe in religious faith either.  I do believe though that atheism is just the flip side of the coin from religious faith.  I am not picking at you.  I am trying to point toward something for both of us.  My communication skills are probably not up to it though.

Well, Hey, I'm not always successful at expressing my mind on a first attempt either.  To me, all that means is that I have to rethink what I said and find a better way of saying it.

 

Sure, there are many aspects of the universe that have more energy, or potential energy, than I will ever have.  But I don't reify (personify) these aspects of the universe.  So yes, I am saying that I do not hold to there being a higher personified power greater than I.  But then, I am simply one of the Ten Thousand Things.  Nothing special.

 

Sure, religions work with faith and hope.  I work with historical fact.  Sure, you could call them flip sides of the same coin.  The coin being how we live out life and what we base our understandings and actions on.

 

For me, I see the difference as being between living in a fantasy world (faith and hope) and living in a world where shit happens.

 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

Something like that. Again, the Tianshi were accepted as official by Wei but that was a tumultuous period. By the Tang the Lingbao and Shangqing came into being too and I think it was these latter schools that held more sway than Tianshi did during the Tang. Even with Buddhist clout during the Song, the Tianshi reformed and was absorbed into the Zhengyi while Quanzhen was founded too. But you've probably seen this at some point or another so I post it for other readers.

Thanks again.  My last reading of that stuff was back in the mid-1970s.  Concluded that most of it was not helpful for me in my life so I did no further studying.

 

But then, in the most part no religion has any significance to me personally.  I will look up particular concepts if I need the knowledge in order to continue a discussion though.

 

[moment]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Well, Hey, I'm not always successful at expressing my mind on a first attempt either.  To me, all that means is that I have to rethink what I said and find a better way of saying it.

 

Sure, there are many aspects of the universe that have more energy, or potential energy, than I will ever have.  But I don't reify (personify) these aspects of the universe.  So yes, I am saying that I do not hold to there being a higher personified power greater than I.  But then, I am simply one of the Ten Thousand Things.  Nothing special.

 

Sure, religions work with faith and hope.  I work with historical fact.  Sure, you could call them flip sides of the same coin.  The coin being how we live out life and what we base our understandings and actions on.

 

For me, I see the difference as being between living in a fantasy world (faith and hope) and living in a world where shit happens.

 

 

I think defining the space between, some preconcepts here, is one of those areas in which words are proving inadequate. But, on the bright side, you have taught me a new word (reify).  After looking up all of it's nuances, I see that it is much more agile than personify.  Thank you.

Edited July 29, 2018 by moment