Does anyone know any exact quotes from ancient Daoist sources (before tang dynasty) which teach how to meditate correctly?

[Daemon]

That's the way that I was taught that science works (at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels). However, I'm sometimes open to corrections, so if you'd like to point me towards some reputable peer-reviewed scientific papers validating the paranormal, I'll be very interested to evaluate them.

Also, while on this point, the book you're espousing as science is not scientific, its academic pedigree seems to lie within the discipline of the Arts (language and history).

 

☮️

Edited May 27, 2018 by Daemon

[wandelaar]

42 minutes ago, Daemon said:

That's the way that I was taught that science works (at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels). However, I'm sometimes open to corrections, so if you'd like to point me towards some reputable peer-reviewed scientific papers validating the paranormal, I'll be very interested to evaluate them.

 

My position on the existence or non-existence of the paranormal is probably the same as yours. I consider paranormal phenomena unlikely to exist. My point of disagreement concerns your implicit definition of the paranormal. Paranormal doesn't mean "human capabilities that are without empirical foundation", but "human capabilities that are impossible from the viewpoint of current scientific understanding". So when there would be a reproducible experiment proving the existence of paranormal events they would not thereby stop to be paranormal. For paranormal phenomena to stop being paranormal our current scientific understand of ourselves and the world would also have to change dramatically. And that would probably take some time, possibly years or decades. In the meantime paranormal phenomena would than have the status of anomalies.

 

Quote

Also, while on this point, the book you're espousing as science is not scientific, its academic pedigree is linguistic and historical.

 

Yes - that's the science used in the book. The book is using textual and historical evidence, as opposed to believing the legends told within esoteric traditions.

Edited May 27, 2018 by wandelaar

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ Daemon

 

I think one could achieve extraordinary results by extraordinary methods, but I doubt (that is: am not convinced) that one could thus achieve paranormal effects. Is that what you mean?

 

Umm - well you can always check out qigong masters to see if they have paranormal abilities. I saw a poster on a telephone pole for qigong master Effie P. Chow. I was so skeptical I called up to ask for a reduction in the admission fee. She gave me half off - I could hear her in the background as another lady answered. So I showed up at St. Mary's University in Minneapolis in 1995 - with my girlfriend who lived with me. Effie P. Chow then said she filled the room with qi energy - she had people walk down the center aisle towards her to feel the energy. Then she had us make "qi balls" and push our palms together. Amazingly I felt strong magnetic force pushing my hands apart. Now granted I was - only 24 years old - and I rode a bicycle up a steep big hill everyday  - or in the morning on the way home from work. I worked the night shift - so didn't spend that much time with the GF. I also ate a vegan diet. So I was pretty healthy. My GF had health problems so she didn't really feel anything I guess.

 

Then as almost everyone was gone - this security guard wandered in from the front of the room and said, "Just wondering what is going on in here because the fuse got blown in the room behind you." And she said that to the qigong master. haha. So Effie P. Chow lives in San Francisco and so in 1996 I got carpal tunnel payment as workers comp and it was only $600 to I used it to flew to visit a high school Chinese born American friend - he just wanted to party. I didn't have the money to see effie P. Chow even though I was in SF. haha. I did go to the new library, found a new qigong book. Then he rented a car and drove me up to Portland, OR. We went to that big bookstore - there I found John Beauleiu's book - he's a PH.D. who teaches Biosonic healing. In the book he says how the Perfect Fifth is Yang and the Perfect Fourth is Yin. Since my specialty was music theory with a focus on Pythagorean philosophy - that got me hooked.

 

So I kept researching. I went to a Tibetan monk in 1997 - or 1998 - and after listening to him intently I went home and felt what I thought was a headache - until I realized it was only felt precisely in the center of my forehead and was not pain but rather a kind of magnetic force. Then I started doing Yan Xin qigong with the Chinese immigrant community and they showed a documentary made by the chinese government - Yan Xin Superman. I have it in my playlist of qigong paranormal abilities being displayed. Only it's in Chinese - so they translated for me and the one other Westerner in the room. Some Canadian Chinese visited to teach Yan Xin and set up a microphone in the audience to ask if we felt anything. I reported I had felt strong heat in the stomach - after the meditation. They were glad to hear that.

 

So that was a start into the experience. Then Chunyi Lin, qigong master, gave a talk to my graduate class on spiritual healing, taught by my advisor a Jesuit priest - through the center for spiritual healing at the University of Minnesota. I sat right up front. I could feel heat emanating from him. But what really intrigued me was he seemed to have read my mind because he then send - "and sometimes people can feel heat from me if they are close to me." hmmm. And I had read. Dr. DAvid Eisenberg's book on Encountering Qi in China - a Harvard Medical doctor. He has a photo of a qigong master who demonstrated telekinesis to him - and that qigong master looked just like Chunyi Lin. I mean the body build. So also my housemate had already told me that she had meditated with Chunyi Lin at the community college - just her and the philosophy professor and Chunyi Lin. This intrigued me. She was very beautiful and I had fallen in love with her but our relationship remained Platonic.

 

Anyway - so since then Chunyi Lin has done "gold standard" science proving that "external qi" can heal chronic pain that Western medicine can treat. Dr. Anne Vincent of the Mayo Clinic called the results, "extremely impressive." It is randomized controlled science aka "gold standard" published in a peer-reviewed journal. Here is the best playlist - in my view - of paranormal powers being demonstrated from mainly qigong but also other nonwestern shamanic training.

 

 You

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-05-26 at 4:05 AM, Phoenix3 said:

Buddha reached nibbana in mere weeks. Some of his disciples reached nibbana in as little as 7 days (apparently).

Gautama siddharta, as a noble, probably had martial training with exercises close to what is taught today as kalaripayat, that is, not unlike the physical part of some yoga styles. He probably had a good focus ability as well because of this. 

 

He then spent 5 years with aescetics, practicing whatever. 

 

Then, he did what he is famous for, sat under a tree and meditated. 

 

And some of his students had years, decades, of hard meditative practice before they got liberated by his sermons. 

[Daemon]

@wandelaar

 

Can we dispose of the misconception that the (undoubtedly scholarly) translation of this mythological (or religious) text is in any way science? Firstly, a different translator would produce something different. Hence, translation cannot subjected to the scientific method (as the findings of a second scientist would need to be the same as the findings of the first in order to confer scientific validity).

Secondly, the original text is in no way a scientific paper as it lacks the specific details that would allow a second experimenter to duplicate the experiment.

And just let me add that, in my opinion, mythology can be extremely useful if it's recognised as mythology (and not mistaken for history or for science).

 

This is an outline of the scientific method.

 

 

The etymology of "paranormal" is probably also useful.

 

Quote

The term "paranormal" has existed in the English language since at least 1920. The word consists of two parts: para and normal. The definition implies that the scientific explanation of the world around us is 'normal' and anything that is above, beyond, or contrary to that is 'para'.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal

 

 

☮️

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Daemon

[wandelaar]

@ Daemon

What in your opinion happens when a hypothesis is disproved? This is the crucial question that when honestly answered will lead you to a more realistic view of science. My own conception of science is close to the ideas of:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos

 

The best way to get at the kind of meditation Lao tzu and Chuang tzu (or those writing in their name) commended is studying the literary and historical sources. It's not exact science, but I like to call it science nevertheless as it is the most scientific approach conceivable given the material at hand. Whether that kind of meditation works is an entirely different question.

Edited May 28, 2018 by wandelaar

[Daemon]

Certainly, it also seems to me to me the only way to find out what these ancient sages practiced is through historical, cultural and linguistic analysis. That's not science and (also again merely in my opinion) it does a grave disservice to both the Arts and to the Sciences to conflate them in that way.

As far as your second point is concerned, I personally practice a method of heart-centred breath meditation (with a reasonable scientific foundation, given that biology and physiology continue to evolve), which (as far as I'm aware) yields broadly similar benefits and which is (again merely imo) in no way incompatible with this text), so my interest in this text is merely intellectual curiosity (rather than practical necessity).

However, should some similarly reliable source publish clear instructions that would allow me to test some other hypothetically ancient practice that may also have been practiced by these Taoist sages, I might be tempted to take it for a test drive (if it seemed that it might be any more effective or efficient than what I and many others already practice, which is a very, very high barrier).

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

Then what would you call the kind of investigation as used in the book Original Tao by Harold D. Roth? 

[Daemon]

Academic.

 

☮️

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ Daemon

What in your opinion happens when a hypothesis is disproved? This is the crucial question that when honestly answered will lead you to a more realistic view of science. My own conception of science is close to the ideas of:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos

 

The best way to get at the kind of meditation Lao tzu and Chuang tzu (or those writing in their name) commended is studying the literary and historical sources. It's not exact science, but I like to call it science nevertheless as it is the most scientific approach conceivable given the material at hand. Whether that kind of meditation works is an entirely different question.

 

"best way to get at the kind of meditation"? Why not just try it out and practice it! Can you sit in full lotus? If not your energy channels are closed up. How does yin-yang apply to the body? Study the Yellow Emperor's book on medicine.

https://www.academia.edu/1727544/The_Alchemists_Daode_jing

Here's another "professor" for you - an expert on ancient Daoist meditation literature.

[Mudfoot]

5 hours ago, Daemon said:

Certainly, it also seems to me to me the only way to find out what these ancient sages practiced is through historical, cultural and linguistic analysis. That's not science and (also again merely in my opinion) it does a grave disservice to both the Arts and to the Sciences to conflate them in that way.

Qualitative science. 

Some of the methods you analyze interviews with came from old ways of analyzing religious litterature. I never liked this approach myself, but it is science. Just not natural science based on quantitative measurements. 

 

And @wandelaar might take part of the historical analysis made by Nan Huai-chin in the book Spiritual paths and their meditation techniques and then look at the Nei-Ye which would give you some of the answers you seek. 

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, Daemon said:

Certainly, it also seems to me to me the only way to find out what these ancient sages practiced is through historical, cultural and linguistic analysis. That's not science and (also again merely in my opinion) it does a grave disservice to both the Arts and to the Sciences to conflate them in that way.

As far as your second point is concerned, I personally practice a method of heart-centred breath meditation (with a reasonable scientific foundation, given that biology and physiology continue to evolve), which (as far as I'm aware) yields broadly similar benefits and which is (again merely imo) in no way incompatible with this text), so my interest in this text is merely intellectual curiosity (rather than practical necessity).

However, should some similarly reliable source publish clear instructions that would allow me to test some other hypothetically ancient practice that may also have been practiced by these Taoist sages, I might be tempted to take it for a test drive (if it seemed that it might be any more effective or efficient than what I and many others already practice, which is a very, very high barrier).

 

☮️

 

Qigong master Chunyi Lin said that he experienced Lao Tzu appearing before him as a Yang Shen, golden immortal body, and physically touching his head. So the assumption that this is all occurring in the past is not necessarily accurate.

 

You could always just call http://springforestqigong.com and get a phone healing from Chunyi Lin - but if you experience something that is outside the realm of science - like seeing ghosts or smelling cancer nonlocally - good luck converting the experience back into science. haha. Precognition. Yes try a long distance phone healing and see if you feel anything....

 

 

[Daemon]

@Mudfoot

 

Roth's tenure is as a Professor of Religious Studies falling under the remit of the faculty of Humanities at Brown.

This department can award the degree of Bachelor of Arts. It cannot award the degree of Bachelor of Science.

 

https://www.brown.edu/academics/degree-granting

 

Therefore, what Roth teaches (Religious Studies) isn't considered (by Brown) to be a scientific discipline (and I'm not suggesting that an Arts degree is in any way inferior to a Science degree because, in my opinion, it's merely different while being of equal academic stature).

 

☮️

[Phoenix3]

On 26/05/2018 at 11:08 AM, Marblehead said:

Hi Phoenix3,

 

I hope you are still reading this thread of yours.

 

I often talk about empty-minded meditation.  Chuang Tzu spoke directly to this meditation method.

 

If you are still interested I will find exactly how he explains it and post it.

 

 

This sounds great. If you could share it I’ll be so grateful!

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

This sounds great. If you could share it I’ll be so grateful!

The reason I asked if you were interested is that I have forgotten exactly where it is spoken to so I will have to do a search for it and it will likely take a little time.  I don't mind spending the time as long as there is interest in what I find and present.

 

I'll get back to this soon.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You might find what you're looking for here:

 

 

Includes all the meditation texts from the Guanzi, where the Neiye is found. Includes commentary to connect them with the mediation traditions inspired by Laozi and Zhuangzi, including translations of these texts, and also of Guiguzi (Ghost Valley Master) from Warring States which seems inspired by the Neiye, et al.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527611992&sr=1-1&keywords=thread+of+dao

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

On 5/27/2018 at 4:21 AM, wandelaar said:

@ steve

 

It depends on what you want. If you want to meditate as part of following Lao tzu and Chuang tzu, I doubt that anything more than the most simple forms of meditation is necessary. But if you want to be able to do extraordinary things you will probably need extraordinary methods. I don't think Lao tzu and Chung tzu were promoting that we should become wizards. 

 

IMO, Laozi and Zhuangzi are referring to nothing less than transcending our illusory view of who and what we are and connecting to a much deeper and pervasive understanding. This is not trivial and the changes that can occur to us can be quite profound.

 

What I was referring to in my post was based on the training I've received in Daoist meditation.

It is sophisticated, detail oriented, and highly dependent on personal instruction and support from a master.

Since no one really knows much about what Laozi and Zhuangzi may have practiced, I can't comment on that specifically.

 

The other important point to make is that the simplest possible forms of meditation (eg Dzogchen, which is very much like "sitting and forgetting" from the Daoist perspective, there is nothing 'simpler' than that), still require expert guidance, support, and instruction if you are doing it for anything more than a simple relaxation technique. Simple does not equate with easy when it comes to meditation. In fact, the more complicated visualizations are easier in some ways than sitting and doing absolutely nothing at all. It's not only a matter of the methodology but the effects it has on us if we pursue it deeply enough and for long enough.

 

It is very easy to get off course, to develop bad habits, even for the meditation to enhance negative characteristics in us or open us to psychological, emotion, spiritual, energetic, even physical harm, depending on our conditioning, constitution,  and cultural influences. Effective meditation can open us up to some deep, dark, and challenging experiences. I recently read about a young woman who killed herself shortly after a Goenke style vipassana meditation retreat. My Daoist teacher once told me that he felt one of the most important reasons to practice is so that we can work through our repressed and suppressed garbage while we are young and healthy. It otherwise sticks with us and we end up facing it when we are old and frail. That may be part of the reason why there is such a high suicide rate in the elderly. Even the wonderful experiences can take us in the wrong direction, such as developing an infatuation with personal power, taking advantage of others, etc... I see this a lot in people who practice without guidance. You see it quite a bit right here on this forum. 

 

FYI, when referring to meditation, I never concern myself with things like magic, siddhis, wizardry, etc...

I refer to transforming our minds and our lives so that we live better and healthier and enhance our relationships with others.

That is where the magic is for me and there is some potential for landmines along the way.

The "supernatural" stuff that turns people on, even the 'immortality' are side effects of good practice (and sometimes simple parlor tricks).

 

All of this is just my personal bias based on personal experience with Daoist and Bonpo meditation practices.

 

 

[doc benway]

On 5/28/2018 at 8:14 AM, Daemon said:

@wandelaar

 

Can we dispose of the misconception that the (undoubtedly scholarly) translation of this mythological (or religious) text is in any way science? Firstly, a different translator would produce something different. Hence, translation cannot subjected to the scientific method (as the findings of a second scientist would need to be the same as the findings of the first in order to confer scientific validity).

Secondly, the original text is in no way a scientific paper as it lacks the specific details that would allow a second experimenter to duplicate the experiment.

And just let me add that, in my opinion, mythology can be extremely useful if it's recognised as mythology (and not mistaken for history or for science).

 

This is an outline of the scientific method.

 

 

The etymology of "paranormal" is probably also useful.

 

 

☮️

 

 

The use of the word science is almost as loose and imprecise as the use of the word energy.

If the scientific method can be applied in some reasonable form, it is science.

Otherwise the word is probably not applicable.

 

 

 

[Lataif]

On 5/25/2018 at 9:29 PM, Phoenix3 said:

I want to go back to the source and try to understand what they’re talking about, instead of getting lost in all the different meditation styles of today. How did the ancient daoists teach it? Please provide quotes.

 

(1) A quote only (?)

 

(2) (LOL) This is a slam dunk.

 

(3) From "The Secret of the Golden Flower" (Cleary translation):

 

"If you can look back again and again into the source

of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any

image of person or self at all, then this is 'turning

the light around wherever you are.'  This is the finest

practice."

 

(4) There you go . . . and good luck. 

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I didn't find it explained as I remember it but I did find this translation from Nina Correa with a discussion of the process:

 

 

 

Yan Hui said:  "I've reached a new plateau in my cultivation."

Zhong Ni (Confucius) asked:  "What do you mean by that?"

"I've forgotten all about benevolence and righteousness."

"That's great, but you're still not finished."

On another day they met again and Hui said:  "I've reached a new plateau in my cultivation."

"What do you mean by that?"

"I've forgotten all about rituals and celebrations"

"That's great, but you're still not finished."

On another day they met again and Hui said:  "I've reached a new plateau in my cultivation."

"What do you mean by that?"

"I sit in forgetfulness."

Zhong Ni perked up at this and asked:  "What do you mean by sitting in forgetfulness?"

Yan Hui replied:  "My bones seem to droop like branches overloaded with fruit. My intelligence and cleverness become overshadowed by darkness. Any knowledge has evaporated as well as any sense of my own shape. I feel embraced by a great openness. That's what I mean by sitting in forgetfulness."

Zhong Ni said:  "Being embraced in that way, then you'd be without preferences. Transforming in that way, then you'd easily change. As a result, you've become almost a Sage! I beg you to allow me to take you as my teacher and follow you."

 

 

 

The point is, we must release all thoughts from our mind.  We have no opinions of our own.  We have detached our mind from all the senses.  We will then be empty-minded.

 

[Daemon]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

The use of the word science is almost as loose and imprecise as the use of the word energy.

If the scientific method can be applied in some reasonable form, it is science.

Otherwise the word is probably not applicable.

 

 

You're very much mistaken Steve. A competent scientist defines energy precisely in terms of its SI unit.

The SI unit of energy is the joule, which is the energy transferred to an object by the work of moving it a distance of 1 metre against a force of 1 newton.

 

☮️

 

Footnotes

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_energy 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement

 

☮️

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Daemon

[Mudfoot]

In natural science. 

 

WHO, in the ICF, uses the term energy rather different. 

Chapter one, b130 codes. 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Daemon said:

 

You're very much mistaken Steve. A competent scientist defines energy precisely in terms of its SI unit.

The SI unit of energy is the joule, which is the energy transferred to an object by the work of moving it a distance of 1 metre against a force of 1 newton.

 

☮️

 

Footnotes

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_energy 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement

 

☮️

 

 

You misunderstood my point, sorry for not being more clear.

I quoted you because of the precise and concise explanation of the scientific method provided by your graph.

I was not referring to how scientists use the word energy (or science), that is (should be) precise and consistent.

I was referring to the way 'energy' is used on this forum and by lay-people in general, which leads to poor communication. 

 

[Daemon]

No need to apologise for a misunderstanding @steve, (especially when it's mine). A correction is more than adequate and I'm grateful that you took the time.

 

☮️

[dwai]

Read and meditate on the Daodejing. Nothing else is needed. But odds are you won’t be able to make head or tail of the text, and so will need commentaries. Which in turn won’t make much sense to you, so you will need a Teacher who can explain to you what needs to be done. When he/she explains it to you, you might still not “get it” without preparation. So find a teacher who will give you foundational teachings (moving meditation, IMA). Finally when you are “ready”, you will find that you knew what Lao Tzu wrote in the daodejing all along.

 

Best is to keep an open mind and stay humble. Sometimes the teaching requires you to beg for the teaching