Mair 17:4

[Marblehead]

Kungsun Lung inquired of Prince Mou of Wei, saying, "When I was young I studied the Way of the former kings, and when I grew up I understood the conduct of humaneness and righteousness.  I joined sameness and difference, separated hardness from whiteness, asserted the unassertable, and affirmed the unaffirmable.  I perplexed the thinkers of the hundred schools and refuted the disputers of the manifold persuasions.  I considered myself to be ultimately accomplished.  But now I have heard the words of Master Chuang and am bewildered by their oddity.  I don't know whether it's because my powers of discussion are not up to his or because my knowledge is less than his.  Now I feel that I can't even make a peep.  I venture to ask what strategy I should adopt."

Prince Mou leaned against his table and heaved a great sigh.  Then he looked up to heaven and, smiling, said, "Haven't you heard about the frog in the broken-down well?  'I really enjoy myself here!' it said to a turtle of the Eastern Sea.  'If I want to go out, I jump along the railing around the well, then I come back and rest where the brick lining is missing from the wall.  I enter the water till it comes up to my armpits and supports my chin.  When I slop through the mud, it covers my feet and buries my toes.  Turning around, I see crayfish and tadpoles, but none of them is a match for me.  Furthermore, I have sole possession of all the water in this hole and straddle all the joy in this broken down well.  This is the ultimate!  Why don't you drop in some time, sir, and see for yourself?'

"But before the turtle of the Eastern Sea could get his left foot in, his right knee had already gotten stuck.  After extricating himself, he withdrew a little and told the frog about the sea, saying, 'A distance of a thousand tricents is insufficient to span its breadth; a height of a thousand fathoms is insufficient to plumb its depth.  During Yŭ's time, there were floods nine years out of ten, but the water in it did not appreciably increase; during T'ang's time, there were droughts seven years out of eight, but the extent of its shores did not appreciably decrease.  Hence, not to shift or change with time, not to advance or recede regardless of amount - this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea.'  Upon hearing this, the frog in the broken-down well was so utterly startled that it lost itself in bewilderment.

"Furthermore, when you, whose knowledge is inadequate to understand the limits of 'right ' and 'wrong,' still wish to see through the words of Master Chuang, it's like making a mosquito carry a mountain on its back or an inchworm race against the Yellow River - they won't be up to the task.  Still further, aren't you, whose knowledge is inadequate to understand the words for discussing the uttermost mysteries and who satisfy yourself with a moment's profit, like the frog in the broken-down well?

"Master Chuang, however, marches through the Yellow Springs {{The Chinese equivalent of Hades.}} one moment and ascends to the empyrean the next.

With him, there is neither north nor south,
But only untrammeled release in all four directions
And absorption in the unfathomable;
There is neither east nor west,
Beginning as he does in darkest obscurity
And returning to grand perceptivity.

But you, sir, bewilderedly seek something with which to quiz him and grope for a means to dispute him.  This is simply like peering at heaven through a tube or pointing at the earth with an awl - they're too small for the purpose.  Begone, sir!  Haven't you heard of the young lad from Shouling {{A place in the state of Yen.}} who tried to learn to walk the way people do in Hantan?  Before he had acquired this new skill, he had forgotten how he used to walk, so all he could do was come crawling home on all fours.  If you don't go away now, sir, you'll forget what you used to know and lose your profession."

Mouth agape and tongue-tied, Kungsun Lung fled in consternation.

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Hence, not to shift or change with time, not to advance or recede regardless of amount - this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea.

 

This passage seems to be key, the Eastern Sea remaining undisturbed by changing conditions resting in the unity of Dao.

 

I very much enjoyed Mair's translation. I have been looking for another translation of Chuangtse but looking for more than just the inner chapters. If you don't mind a sidebar: How much of the outer material is in Mair's translation and how do you compare Mair to Watson?

 

 

[Marblehead]

Well, I have already stated that Watson's translation is my favorite.  However, I must admit that I am not disliking Mair's translation as much as I thought I would.

 

As does Mair, Watson translates all the chapters.  I wish Lin Yutang had done all the chapters as I really like the way he does the Inner Chapters.

 

 

Hence, not to shift or change with time, not to advance or recede regardless of amount - this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea.

 

Yeah, perhaps this is associating the Eastern Sea to Tao.

[OldDog]

Yes,  Lin Yutang is where I go first for Laotse and Chuangtse.

[wandelaar]

This passage seems to concern the unfavorable comparison of Kungsun Lung to Master Chuang, but what arguments are there actually brought forward to justify this comparison. Wouldn't it be more in the spirit of Chuang tzu to equally value both of them for the special characteristics they have. After all, the turtle is no better and no less than the frog.

[OldDog]

A riddle wraped in a mystery inside an enigma ... or perhaps more properly fable wrapped inside a parable. 

 

Seems that Kungsun, like the frog, became complacent in their world ... confounded when exposed to notions outside of their realm. Kungsun, however, asks what his strategy should be. Master Chuang advises return to your realm lest you risk not being able to return at all. Favorable or unfavorable depend in the perception.