PK abilities - real or imaginary?

[voidisyinyang]

Jessica Utts, who was President of the American Statistical Association last year, said the following as part of her Presidential address to 6,000 professional statisticians from around the world:
Utts was elected to serve as the 111th president of the American Statistical Association, with her term as President-Elect to commence in January 2015, followed by her term as president in 2016. She is a Fellow of the American Statistical Association, and also a Fellow of the Institute of Mathematical Statistics.

Quote

For many years I have worked with researchers doing very careful work in [parapsychology], including a year that I spent full-time working on a classified project for the United States government to see if we could use these abilities for intelligence gathering during the cold war.

At the end of that project I wrote a report for Congress stating what I still think is true. The data in support of precognition and possibly other related phenomena is quite strong statistically and would be widely accepted if it pertained to something more mundane.

Yet, most scientists reject the possible reality of these abilities without ever looking at data. And on the other extreme, there are true believers who base their beliefs solely on anecdotes and personal experience. I have asked the debunkers if there is any amount of data that would convince them, and they generally responded by saying “probably not.” I ask them what original research they have read, and they mostly admit that they haven’t read any. Now there is a definition of a pseudoscientist: Basing conclusions on belief rather than data.

When I’ve given talks on this topic to audiences of statisticians I show lots of data. Then I ask the audience, which would be more convincing to you? Lots more data or one strong personal experience? And guess what, almost without fail the response is one strong personal experience.

https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/
 

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I think it is a sad thing, and it doesn't make me laugh.

[Ilovecoffee]

16 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Jessica Utts, who was President of the American Statistical Association last year, said the following as part of her Presidential address to 6,000 professional statisticians from around the world:
Utts was elected to serve as the 111th president of the American Statistical Association, with her term as President-Elect to commence in January 2015, followed by her term as president in 2016. She is a Fellow of the American Statistical Association, and also a Fellow of the Institute of Mathematical Statistics.

https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/
 

 

You would need to have macroscopic effects demonstrated on camera with scientists and medical doctors present to do their best to rule out fraud, and not once but most likely dozens of times.   People just aren't going to listen to quotes from studies. 

 

[Wells]

On 30.5.2018 at 6:42 AM, voidisyinyang said:

"Now there is a definition of a pseudoscientist: Basing conclusions on belief rather than data." - Jessica Utts

 

Well said!

Those "scientists" are irrational believers exactly like the esoteric crackpots at the other end of the spectrum.

The "established" scientific world view (see wikipedia) is their religion.

None of those care about facts and reality, but only about a personal belief and a feeling of psychological security.

Pathetic!

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Wells

[wandelaar]

We are now on page 6. And the preaching of the believers goes on and on. No end in sight. If only a minute fraction of the time and energy wasted on irrelevant posts had been spend on actually helping with the set up of the experiment, we would by now have had the first results giving an impression of the PK-abilities of those participating in the experiment. But nothing of the sort happened.

 

Besides: there are skeptical organizations willing to test persons claiming to have paranormal abilities, so if our experiments here would have proved fruitful we could go to the skeptics to see what happens. That was the next step I had in mind, but as I am only getting vast amounts of irrelevant preaching and generalizing accusations my interest in this topic is rapidly declining.

Edited May 31, 2018 by wandelaar

[Wells]

48 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Besides: there are skeptical organizations willing to test persons claiming to have paranormal abilities, so if our experiments here would have proved fruitful we could go to the skeptics to see what happens.

 

You seem to have a pretty naive and idealistic view.

 

"What happens" is that James Randi (and similar skeptic organisations) would ignore every person like John Chang who would apply for testing and who he wouldn't be able to disprove and instead only filters out for testing the obious fakes who he can expose easily on tv.

If asked, then he would possibly claim that John Chang is such an obvious fake that he isn't even worth testing.

 

Those "skeptic organisations" aim at strengthening the "established world view", they don't aim at "finding out the truth".

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Wells

[KuroShiro]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

We are now on page 6. And the preaching of the believers goes on and on. No end in sight. If only a minute fraction of the time and energy wasted on irrelevant posts had been spend on actually helping with the set up of the experiment, we would by now have had the first results giving an impression of the PK-abilities of those participating in the experiment. But nothing of the sort happened.

 

Besides: there are skeptical organizations willing to test persons claiming to have paranormal abilities, so if our experiments here would have proved fruitful we could go to the skeptics to see what happens. That was the next step I had in mind, but as I am only getting vast amounts of irrelevant preaching and generalizing accusations my interest in this topic is rapidly declining.

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

28 minutes ago, Wells said:

You seem to have a pretty naive and idealistic view.

 

"What happens" is that James Randi (and similar skeptic organisations) would ignore every person like John Chang who would apply for testing and who he wouldn't be able to disprove and instead only filters out for testing the obious fakes who he can expose easily on tv.

If asked, then he would possibly claim that John Chang is such an obvious fake that he isn't even worth testing.

 

Those "skeptic organisations" aim at strengthening the "established world view", they don't aim at "finding out the truth".

 

Maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. There is only one way to find out the truth, and that is "finding out the truth". But apparently people here prefer to proclaim their opinion and to selectively cite those who agree with them. As if that would prove anything. The experiment I started this topic about is almost completely ignored. I didn't start this topic to hear opinions on the paranormal, because I am no longer interested in opinions. I have heard them all before. I made a study of parapsychology myself, and thus I know very well discussions on this topic don't lead anywhere. 

 

But I have had enough of it. I will not read any new post in this topic. Have a nice time debating...

[Wells]

36 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

 

 

This is no proof for anything paranormal.

This is only proof, that Wim Hof is able to suppress a normal reaction of his immune system.

More important, what happened here is therefore not even evidence for Hof's own belief, that his training system can make people's immune system work more efficiently against deseases.

The exact contrary was proved here!

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Wells

[alfheim]

7 hours ago, Wells said:

The exact contrary was proved here!

 

Not at all. They talk about influencing the immune system which of course goes in both directions. As he says himself in the video the goal here was to suppress the normal immune system reaction.

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

The second main category of psi phenomena is psychokinesis (PK). This refers to apparent paranormal influence, where one person appears to affect an animate or inanimate object in their environment through thought alone. For example, people commonly report feeling the hairs stand up on the back of their neck, turning round and finding they are being stared at. There are three sub-categories of PK: macro-PK refers to large-scale apparent PK effects, such as metal-bending or table levitations, that are visible to the naked eye; micro-PK refers to apparent PK effects that can only be detected statistically (such as deviations in the output of electronic random number generators that correspond with the mental intention of an operator); bio-PK or DMILS (direct mental interaction between living systems) usually refers to the apparent influence of one person’s volition on another person’s physiology (for example, psychic healing), though parapsychologists have also studied DMILS in animals and with samples of tissue or bodily fluids in vitro.

 

https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-19/edition-7/20-years-koestler-parapsychology-unit

 

So Bio-PK has already been proven.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8564355_Distant_intentionality_and_the_feeling_of_being_stared_at_Two_meta-analyses

 

Quote

It is concluded that there are hints of an effect....A most recent metaanalysis (Schmidt et al., 2004) study demonstrates that there is a significant effect, though small to modest, of these anomalies in non-clinical populations suggesting that the existence of these anomalies related to distant intentions cannot be ruled out.

Distant intentionality and the feeling of being stared at: Two meta-analyses

Article in British Journal of Psychology 95(Pt 2):235-47 · June 2004 

 

Quote

Direct Mental Interactions with Living Systems (DMILS): The ability to effect person's psychophysiological state without direct interaction

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

11 hours ago, Wells said:

 

Well said!

Those "scientists" are irrational believers exactly like the esoteric crackpots at the other end of the spectrum.

The "established" scientific world view (see wikipedia) is their religion.

None of those care about facts and reality, but only about a personal belief and a feeling of psychological security.

Pathetic!

 

 

Yes Wells - for example someone complained the the fraud Randi about how the qigong master was giving a qi-talk at their employment and so the Fraud Randi dude immediately said that the qigong master was fake, etc. without knowing anything about him. PZ Myers did the same on his "top" science blog - and yet PZ Myers lives in the same state - Minnesota - as the qigong master - and so PZ Myers could easily just attend one of the qigong master's classes or try out a phone healing to see if he feels anything - before he just assumes it is fake. So these so-called "skeptics" just hide out and refuse to interact with the qigong masters on their own level.

 

Science should be open minded - like David Hume recommended - and so just test the hypothesis - the claims - and so go see the qigong master directly. The qigong master I called up - again I was skeptical - this was 1995 - so she reduced the fee by half. I asked for a fee reduction since I was skeptical - so I only had to pay $10. And so a security guard wandering in at the end - at St. Mary's University - wondering why the fuse got blown? haha. That was not "staged." Almost everyone was already gone - and the qigong master didn't even respond that I recall. I could feel the qi energy strongly between my palms - after Effie P. Chow had filled the room with qi.

 

So skeptics are scared to go out and experience new evidence for themselves. So I did the training on myself - and realized yes it is all very real. And then I went back to science to see how science would be able to explain this stuff. The closest science model that explains Daoist alchemy is noncommutative geometry - from Alain Connes. He got the Field Medal in math - so that is harder to get than the Nobel Prize. But his model is along with the lines with other relativistic quantum physics models.

 

For example the CIA just recently declassified the model that Dr. Jack Sarfatti used to explain Uri Geller. I have corresponded with Dr. Jack Sarfatti as well.

 

Quote

In fact Nature does allow it in living matter as seen in brain presponse and the SRI CIA precognition data et-al. It just means, as Einstein thought, that quantum mechanics is incomplete and that God does not play dice with the universe.

 

Dr. Jack Sarfatti.

Quote

“Suppose there is even something vaguely teleological about the effects of consciousness, so that a future impression might affect a past action.” Roger Penrose, “The Emperor’s New Mind” pp 442-445 (1989)

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp79-00999a000200010077-1

 

Dr. Jack Sarfatti's relativistic quantum analysis of biogravitational paranormal energy.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. There is only one way to find out the truth, and that is "finding out the truth". But apparently people here prefer to proclaim their opinion and to selectively cite those who agree with them. As if that would prove anything. The experiment I started this topic about is almost completely ignored. I didn't start this topic to hear opinions on the paranormal, because I am no longer interested in opinions. I have heard them all before. I made a study of parapsychology myself, and thus I know very well discussions on this topic don't lead anywhere. 

 

But I have had enough of it. I will not read any new post in this topic. Have a nice time debating...

 

Yeah you don't seem to understand quantum physics very well - it is proven that reality is interactive. And that includes your quest for "truth" about a PK random number generator:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273889027_Micro-psychokinesis

 

Quote

 

The issue of experimenter psi seems particularly relevant in studies sampling ‘silent’ or ‘hidden’

RNGs, while experimental participants are engaged in other tasks. Significant results have been reported in a

number of laboratory studies (Honorton & Tremmel, 1978; Varvoglis & McCarthy, 1986; Berger, 1988;

Varvoglis, 1988), but also in studies with hidden RNGs placed in non-laboratory settings (’power spots’,

personal development workshops, sport-event stadiums). The Global Consciousness Project is by far the

largest and most sustained example of these field investigations of micro-PK24. The question is, do these

studies point to a subtle "PK field", that is that spreads outwards from individuals under certain attentional or

emotional circumstances and indiscriminately affects physical systems25? Or do they simply point to

experimenter psi, (whether real-time or retroactive)? Clearly, in all these studies RNGs are not hidden to the

investigators; the latter are well aware of them, and quite invested in their outputs.

,......................

Nevertheless, we are very far

from being able to claim to understand microPK, and several competing (or complementary) models need to

be systematically evaluated, such as retro-causal models, observational theories and generalized quantum

theory. We can only hope that more theory-driven research will emerge in the near future and elucidate the

nature of microPK

 

 

New Handbook of Parapsychology, 2015

Edited May 31, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, Wells said:

 

You seem to have a pretty naive and idealistic view.

 

"What happens" is that James Randi (and similar skeptic organisations) would ignore every person like John Chang who would apply for testing and who he wouldn't be able to disprove and instead only filters out for testing the obious fakes who he can expose easily on tv.

If asked, then he would possibly claim that John Chang is such an obvious fake that he isn't even worth testing.

 

Those "skeptic organisations" aim at strengthening the "established world view", they don't aim at "finding out the truth".

 

 

Yep so true!!

 

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2008/02/the-myth-of-the-million-dollar-challenge/

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2011/09/randis-partner-arrested-for-identity-theft/

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2011/07/hoaxing-the-hoaxer/

 

Quote

That Time James Randi Was Tricked Into Lying About Psi Research

 

 

The dude is a total joke. http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/james-randi/james-randis-foundation/

 

 

 

Quote

Besides: there are skeptical organizations willing to test persons claiming to have paranormal abilities, so if our experiments here would have proved fruitful we could go to the skeptics to see what happens. That was the next step I had in mind, but as I am only getting vast amounts of irrelevant preaching and generalizing accusations my interest in this topic is rapidly declining.

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2008/02/the-myth-of-the-million-dollar-challenge/

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2011/09/randis-partner-arrested-for-identity-theft/

 

https://www.dailygrail.com/2011/07/hoaxing-the-hoaxer/

 

That Time James Randi Was Tricked Into Lying About Psi Research

 

The dude is a total joke. http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/james-randi/james-randis-foundation/

 

That Time James Randi Was Tricked Into Lying About Psi Research

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. There is only one way to find out the truth, and that is "finding out the truth". But apparently people here prefer to proclaim their opinion and to selectively cite those who agree with them. As if that would prove anything. The experiment I started this topic about is almost completely ignored. I didn't start this topic to hear opinions on the paranormal, because I am no longer interested in opinions. I have heard them all before. I made a study of parapsychology myself, and thus I know very well discussions on this topic don't lead anywhere. 

 

But I have had enough of it. I will not read any new post in this topic. Have a nice time debating...

 

so much of it is going on... to divert from your aim here    ...   it  seems like a mass debate .      

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, alfheim said:

Not at all. They talk about influencing the immune system which of course goes in both directions. As he says himself in the video the goal here was to suppress the normal immune system reaction.

 

In 'parapsychological experiments' , IMO  they need to be 'outside' the system to give significant results .

 

I might be able to heal or change myself   or a placebo might have the same effect .  The idea here was to effect change outside of the self, with no obvious medium of physical  influence .

 

Thats why I wanna run the 'double blind placebo experiment' . 

[Wells]

4 hours ago, alfheim said:

Not at all. They talk about influencing the immune system which of course goes in both directions. As he says himself in the video the goal here was to suppress the normal immune system reaction.

 

Who cares what they talk about?

The one and only thing they proved here, was that Hof is able to suppress normal immune system reactions and that's it!

If you put yourself under high psychological stress, then you'll probably achieve the exact same thing.

In no way was proven that he is able to influence his immune system to work better or more efficient than normal against deseases or infections.

And of course, that they proved here that he is in fact able to let his immune system work worse than normal does not prove in any way that he would also be able to let it work better than normal, that conclusion is moronic!

 

Why not infect him with an active virus or with living bacteria and then let's see if his immune system can work more efficient than normal and that he can heal himself faster than normal like he is believing!

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Wells

[thelerner]

5 hours ago, Wells said:

Why not infect him with an active virus or with living bacteria and then let's see if his immune system can work more efficient than normal and that he can heal himself faster than normal like he is believing!

 

They did exactly that.  Infecting him and some other practitioners with an active virus.endotoxin.  He and they beat it.  There's a bunch of articles on it.  here's one-

http://theglobalfool.com/iceman-wim-hof-and-the-flow-within-the-immune-system-goes-with-it/

"Results from the new study (Voluntary activation of the sympathetic nervous system and attenuation of the innate immune response in humans), published about two weeks ago in the scientific journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, raise hopes for people with chronic inflammatory diseases, as for example rheumatoid arthritis — the results indicate that the techniques developed by Wim Hof allow to control and decrease the levels of inflammation.

 

The study included 24 volunteers — 12 volunteers were trained for 10 days in meditation (third eye meditation), breathing techniques and exposure to cold (immersions in ice cold water). The other 12 volunteers represented the control group and were not trained. After completion of training, all volunteers were injected with endotoxin, a component from the cell wall of bacteria that elicits a response from the immune system.

Peter Pickkers, one of the researchers, said in a press release “”By administering a dead bacterial component we are actually fooling the body. The immune system responds as if living bacteria are present in the blood stream and produces inflammatory proteins. As a result of this the subjects develop symptoms such as fever and headache. We can therefore use this approach to investigate the immune system of humans.”

 

The researchers demonstrated that, in the trained volunteers, endotoxin injection results in the voluntary activation of the sympathetic nervous system — the trained volunteers produced much higher levels of epinephrine than the untrained ones. Epinephrine is a stress hormone that is released during increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system and suppresses the immune response. The researchers found that, in the trained volunteers, the release of inflammatory proteins was attenuated, resulting in the decrease of symptoms such as fever and headache. In conclusion, results from the study show that “voluntary activation of the sympathetic nervous system results in epinephrine release and subsequent suppression of the innate immune response in humans.”

 

Huge amount of anecdotal evidence (ie most graduates have a couple stories) and a significant amount in the laboratory.  The Wim Hof method seems to be a strong stimulant for the immune system.  I practice it.  I assume the stress it brings out, from the long breath holds trigger some positive hormonal releases and an anti-inflammatory response.  Likewise the cold water treatment stimulates the body to protect itself. 

 

Like muscle building, short amounts of specific controlled stress, strengthen.  Like anything worthwhile, its not easy or comfortable, but a worthwhile skill to pick up.   Doing the method takes about 10 weeks, a bit more for slackers like myself.  You won't reach Wim Hof levels, but mental toughness, cold endurance and anti-inflammatory response should see big gains.  And you'll easily beat any non Hof'er in breath holding contests. 

 

I found it a nice challenge compared to most of the meditation practices I've done. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by thelerner

[Wells]

I would like to invite all members who agree with thelerner's obvious conclusion,

that the test, which Wim Hof took, proves that his training system increases the efficiency of a healthy individual's immune system against deseases and infections,

to express their agreement with a post in this thread, so it can be assured that I get more than only one head when I later drop the guillotine of the correct interpretation of the facts!

[Wells]

Why not infect him with an active virus or with living bacteria and then let's see if his immune system can work more efficient than normal and that he can heal himself faster than normal like he is believing!

 

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

They did exactly that.  Infecting him and some other practitioners with an active virus.endotoxin.  He and they beat it.

 

Quoted for documentation.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Wells

[alfheim]

9 hours ago, Wells said:

 

Who cares what they talk about?

We should if we discuss about it as we have to look at what they try to prove or claim.

 

 

9 hours ago, Wells said:

In no way was proven that he is able to influence his immune system to work better or more efficient than normal against deseases or infections.

And of course, that they proved here that he is in fact able to let his immune system work worse than normal does not prove in any way that he would also be able to let it work better than normal, that conclusion is moronic!

 

I don't agree here with the full part. The immune system isn't a simple stronger=better. There are quite a few problems and whole diseases related to overreactions of the immune system. What they did show is he was able to reduce the normal reaction and thus decrease the usual symptoms resulting from that. If this helps to beat a normal virus faster or more efficient we don't get from the video. They would have to do a different study in that direction. But for those with chronic symptoms resulting from a immune system overreaction this looks like a potential way to improve their situation. For someone like that it might be a way to improve how their immune system works.

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, alfheim said:

If this helps to beat a normal virus faster or more efficient we don't get from the video. They would have to do a different study in that direction. 

Important distinction. 

 

This is always a thing with research, what is it that the result actually points at? 

 

Immunosupression is important in some cases, the question is does it work in the other direction as well? 

 

If it works in both directions you have a very useful method. 

 

[thelerner]

Is this really so remarkable?  That a program that slowly stresses the body can strengthen it? 

 

To me the important part is the commitment to find out for oneself isn't very high and that his students demonstrate similar abilities.  There's his 10 week program, or at Higher Existence (http://highexistence.com/the-wim-hof-method-revealed-how-to-consciously-control-your-immune-system/)there's a good article that's contains the main aspects of the system.  Plus there's many video diaries of people going through the program.  I like the Swedish Iceman youtubes.  

 

Looks like he has a free 3 part mini course.  His original 10 week video course at $199.  And the newer fundamentals at $297.  I like both and they both seem to get you to the same place.  maybe the original is harder.  Also he tends to have sales once or twice a year.  Course > https://www.wimhofmethod.com/elearning

(not easy, actually tough & somewhat painful at times, but if I did it, most can)

 

I blogged my diary of the experience in my ppd here.  It's not rocket science its a 2 1/2 or 3 month commitment that's less then an hour a day.   Faster if you fast forward through the videos. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

 

 

3 physicists featured in new physics book - on their CIA PK research.

 

 

Quote

“In this $25 million program we used ‘remote viewing’ to find a downed Russian bomber in North Africa, for which President Carter commended us. We found a kidnapped US general in Italy, and the kidnap car that snatched Patricia Hearst. We looked in on the US hostages in Iran, and predicted the imminent release, who was soon sent to Germany. We described a Russian weapons factory in Siberia, leading to a US congressional investigation about weakness in US security, etc. Our scientific findings were published in Nature, The Proc, IEEE, Proc. AAAS, and Proc. American Institute of Physics. I thought a TED audience would find this recently declassified material interesting. And no physics would be harmed in my presentation.”

 

Russell Targ

 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[Ilovecoffee]

On 5/27/2018 at 6:19 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

I have one. You can see it perfectly in any room. It's an LED bulb, just like many others.

 

And you do not need to be scuffing feet WHILE using. Just beforehand a little. In some dry conditions, just walking across the room is enough to generate light in the LED.

 

That "John Chang" video is standard "street-performer" stuff.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

 

 

I searched for the one I bought months ago and couldn't find it, so I ordered a new one.  I've got the AC cranked down to 60 and the humidity is low, and not getting anything at all from it.

 

Yes on the package itself it says you must drag your feet on the carpet. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

6 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

I searched for the one I bought months ago and couldn't find it, so I ordered a new one.

 

That stuff seems like it really got to you.

 

It's just stage magic.

 

Everyone knows there are very low-power LED bulbs, and were in the late 80s, and they work.

 

I would say "try the fire stunt then", but don't play with fire yet if you are still having trouble working the LED.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus