The original face

[Bindi]

Quote

The “original face is something natural, but this natural thing has been dirtied and darkened so much by dust and dirt since time without beginning that it must be given a cleaning. Thus, the goal of all the various kinds of meditation work is just to clean us first, only then can you see what was originally there.” – Nan Huai Chin 

p.250

 

Is the need to clean really in dispute? 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Since you are going chan/zen here, the answer to your question would actually be yes.

 

Don't you know this story?

 

Hui Neng had come as an illiterate peasant from a different part of the country to this particular monastery where the Fifth Patriarch was the head.  He claimed to have had the experience of enlightenment already, which was why he now felt the need for a more formal teaching, but the old monk simply put him out in the kitchen to do menial labor.  Somewhat later the monk, anticipating that he would soon have to name his successor, posed a challenge that consisted of someone being considered worthy writing a poem to express what enlightenment meant.  The principal candidate came up with this:

The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling.

The Patriarch expressed his satisfaction and had the poem painted on a wall in the monastery.  Hui Neng asked someone to read it to him and knew immediately that its author in fact was not yet fully enlightened.  He then asked someone to inscribe his own poem.

Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight?

The Patriarch now ordered this poem to be painted over, since obviously its author was not enlightened, but at the same time he had Hui Neng come to him in the middle of the night and passed on the insignia that would mark him as the rightful successor.  He explained that the other monks, who already could not accept Hui Neng because he was an uneducated foreigner, would never allow him to stay in that monastery as its new leader and so it was important that he leave before he was killed.

 

[Bindi]

 

In your first quote the mirror is already bright, but constantly being wiped. The man cannot be enlightened because he has to work at keeping the mirror/his mind clean all the time. Perhaps the solution to permanently clearing the mind is missing, so other notions fill that gap. Notions that seem compelling to people desperate to find a solution.

 

In your second quote does it mean there is no body and no mind? What is empty from the beginning? 

[Bindi]

I read a fuller version here, and in this story Hui Neng goes to thresh rice. The fifth patriarch goes to Hui Neng and asks him about the rice, which according to this commentary is an analogy for the enlightenment process. 

 

Quote

Then the Fifth Patriarch asked, "Is the rice ready?"

Hui Neng replied, "The rice has long been ready. It is now waiting only for the sieve."

 

Commentary:

"The rice has long been ready. My skill was perfected long ago," the Sixth Patriarch answered. "It is now waiting only for the sieve." In threshing rice, a sieve is used to sift out the husks. Here, the sieve represents getting rid of the filth. The fourth chapter of The Lotus Sutra tells of the poor son who spent twenty years getting rid of the filth of the delusions of views and delusions of thoughts.

Although the Sixth Patriarch's spiritual skill was perfected, it still waited for the sieve; he still had to sweep out the filth of the delusions of views and thought. Do you understand now why Sutras must be explained? If they were not explained, you would not even know enough to sweep away the filth, and you would be utterly useless.

 

[Marblehead]

It is difficult when mixing Buddhist and Taoist concepts.

 

The quote in the opening post very Taoist.  The mirror, our mind, is dirtied by false teachings therefore one must occasionally clean their mirror of dirt and blemishes.

 

I can't fairly speak to the resulting posts.

 

[Stosh]

....add yet.. there is dust.

[Bindi]

In a hundred thousand ages, 
The karma made is not destroyed, 
When the causes and conditions rebound, 
You undergo the retribution by yourself. 
Bodhi does not decrease or increase.

 

No one can suffer for you in the hells. Karma refers to acts of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and drinking, all of which bear retribution in the future. Your karma does not get lost, and it is you, and you alone, who must suffer the consequences. However,

 

If you end your confusion 
and get rid of the dirt, 
You can easily take 
your own nature across.

 

The dirt in your nature is your upside-down actions, your false thinking, your ignorance, your outflows, and your bad habits. Eliminate these and you have taken your nature across.

 

 

http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/sutra_comm/platform/platsutra1.htm

Edited May 28, 2018 by Bindi

[Stosh]

Ive been reading some things, and the notions I surmised I am not so sure of now. .

The illusion of separate selves , how can something not existing , the mirror, the viewer, collect repercussions ? 

Would then the dust in fact BE the viewer, and in burnishing the mirror , would one not be reinforcing the illusion rather than seeing themself? 

[Bindi]

I can only speak from my own understanding, but yes I see the dust as my upside-down, false thinking, emotionally tangled self. To me the mirror is where I can see this self as it really is, and dismantle this self, allowing the original face to shine through. 

 

I suspect the masters in Michael's quotes might see it differently. 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I didn't mention the crap we put in our mind our self.  There would be lots of that.  Mostly driven by ego and desires.

 

[Stosh]

Commentary two,from the excerpt,says it cannot be purified or defiled.. And the mirror can collect no dust accordng to the sixth patriarch.

 

What would be your true face? In Buddhism it seems that one has none, except to see the underlying lack of one , with the certainty of a visual input.

the mirror would present nothing Or show the world behind us ,dirt and all.

[Marblehead]

I like to look at that as being able to observe reality as it truly is without any subjective judgements.  Yes, we would see the dirt when it appears, but, we would see the pure when it appears as well.

 

[Stosh]

Is it the general idea in buddhism or even daoism , that one is supposed to purify and endorse a self?

[3bob]

Without Grace karma would not be untangled...for the true master helps break the back of and strangle hold of dark karma's and hell's. 

Also see the TTC chap 49..."He is kind to the kind; He is also kind to the unkind. For virtue is kind."

[Stosh]

56 minutes ago, 3bob said:

Without Grace karma would not be untangled...for the true master helps break the back of and strangle hold of dark karma's and hell's. 

Also see the TTC chap 49..."He is kind to the kind; He is also kind to the unkind. For virtue is kind."

In The story, the sixth patriarch Figured it out for himself, No grace mentioned.

[doc benway]

This controversy regarding whether we need to clean or whether we are always already pure seems to arise from a failure to acknowledge the two truths. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

To the extent that we are able to rest in the nature of mind, accruing no karmic traces, in every waking, dreaming, sleeping, and dying moment, what is there to clean? Hui Neng's poem was an indication that HE had realized the primordial, stainless perfection. It was not an instruction that there is nothing to purify for those of us who are not yet there. 

 

To the extent that we continue to live in the world of cyclic existence, there is plenty opportunity for cleaning and purification. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by steve

[3bob]

yea Stosh,  that major omission and un-explainable lack of acknowledgement is why I'm not a Buddhist even though the practice has much dharma...btw. there is the acknowledgement by the historic Buddha of the truth and I'd say help of the Earth soul in his battle with Mara but that doesn't go quite far enough for me.

[LAOLONG]

As i understand it, the controversy
Is between formal Zen practice
Of siting hours long in full lotus
Meditation  in the meditation hall to clean the Mirror every day ,to living life as it is empty minded work at the kitchen with empty mind.

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, 3bob said:

yea Stosh,  that major omission and un-explainable lack of acknowledgement is why I'm not a Buddhist even though the practice has much dharma...btw. there is the acknowledgement by the historic Buddha of the truth and I'd say help of the Earth soul in his battle with Mara but that doesn't go quite far enough for me.

Why not just dump the idea of grace being required and with held? As a christian one bumps up against this inexcusable  ..... dickishness on the part of a creator . Then you can go whole hog buddhist and have the advantage of the experiences of thousands who went before you.

[Stosh]

10 minutes ago, ONE said:

As i understand it, the controversy
Is between formal Zen practice
Of siting hours long in full lotus
Meditation  in the meditation hall to clean the Mirror every day ,to living life as it is empty minded work at the kitchen with empty mind.

Oh, I thought we were discussing if the desire to be pure was another example of attatchment or acruing karma.

Its the dilemma presented by the requirement of a verse, by the original patriarch .. a typical zen move , im thinking.

[3bob]

21 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Why not just dump the idea of grace being required and with held? As a christian one bumps up against this inexcusable  ..... dickishness on the part of a creator . Then you can go whole hog buddhist and have the advantage of the experiences of thousands who went before you.

 

as a Christian?  I wasn't going there or coming from there - for Grace is known as great blessing in many "eastern" traditions...and it's also well known that various Buddhists  have tons of forms and levels of blessings/empowerment's  being given. 

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, 3bob said:

 

as a Christian?  I wasn't going there or coming from there - for Grace is known as great blessing in many "eastern" traditions...and it's also well known that various Buddhists  have tons of forms and levels of blessings/empowerment's  being given. 

I was speaking from my own upbringing ,catholic.  We had prayers and blessings, most aimed at getting things that the runner of the show.. wasnt of a mind to bestow. Then I would pray, and nothing would happen. 

[3bob]

I'd say except for the Sermon on the Mount teachings of Jesus and some other wisdom and certain people in that faith,  the multitude of dangerous dichotomy's in being "Christian" (with two  thousand years of details not being brought up)   can easily drive one insane.

Edited May 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Stosh]

Just now, 3bob said:

I'd say except for the Sermon on the Mount teachings of Jesus and some other wisdom and certain people in that faith,  the multitude of dangerous dichotomy's in being Christian  can easily drive one insane.

It has some advantages. But anyway thats Meat for another thread . 

So youre waiting on some sort of amulet or chant to manifest from the ether or what? How is that supposed to work?

[Michael Sternbach]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

In your first quote the mirror is already bright, but constantly being wiped. The man cannot be enlightened because he has to work at keeping the mirror/his mind clean all the time. Perhaps the solution to permanently clearing the mind is missing, so other notions fill that gap. Notions that seem compelling to people desperate to find a solution.

 

In your second quote does it mean there is no body and no mind? What is empty from the beginning? 

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I can only speak from my own understanding, but yes I see the dust as my upside-down, false thinking, emotionally tangled self. To me the mirror is where I can see this self as it really is, and dismantle this self, allowing the original face to shine through. 

 

I suspect the masters in Michael's quotes might see it differently. 

 

Okay, that's how I read this:

 

The first reply (by the Patriarch's  would-be successor) was not wrong, relatively speaking - that's why the Patriarch accepted it. However, Hui Neng went a step further by transcending the duality of there being a bright mirror and dust defiling it, as there was no self that needed to be purified in the first place. In other words, he spoke from an absolute perspective that sees and accepts things in their suchness, not from a relative one, as the zealous monk did.

 

And there lies an analogy (and subtle irony) in the aspiring monk being portrayed as "best in class", while Hui Neng was nothing but an illiterate kitchen assistant...

 

It is from narrations like this one that we see the closeness of Zen to Daoism (one of its roots).

 

To put the story's message (the way I understand it) differently: While the clearing of false beliefs etc. is adequate and necessary during certain stages of the way, it is this insight into the very nature of the Self that ultimately cuts through and does away with all delusional assumptions.