Role of Gender in Asian Religions

[Will]

I've been assigned to write a research paper on "the construction of gender" for my English class. I was wondering if there was a way to tie in the Zhuangzi (and perhaps compare its more fluid (?) ideas about gender with the stricter Confucian social roles). 

 

Two questions: Does this seem like an argument that can be made, or is it too difficult to do a gender reading of the Zhuangzi? And, if it is possible, can you think of any chapters from the Zhuangzi that could support a gender argument (and any passages from Confucian texts that I could juxtapose)? 

 

Not asking you to write my paper for me haha, just curious since it's been almost a year since I read the Zhuangzi and I can't remember much! I know there are many more knowledgeable people here. 

[Stosh]

IMO , be a man , and...

Tell the person who assigned the subject, that you cannot make stereotypical statements about gender without making unfair presumptions ,and insulting people uselessly , so you want another topic.  

[Will]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

IMO , be a man , and...

Tell the person who assigned the subject, that you cannot make stereotypical statements about gender without making unfair presumptions ,and insulting people uselessly , so you want another topic.  

 

 

I feel the same way. Unfortunately, this is what we have to write about, so I wanted to see if I could at least tie it in with something I'm passionate about. 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Will said:

 

 

I feel the same way. Unfortunately, this is what we have to write about, so I wanted to see if I could at least tie it in with something I'm passionate about. 

Excuses excuses   

[Stosh]

When I saw your topic I zipped over to google to see what has been previously said , frankly.. it's ugly. Either someone is fawning all over women, while bashing men , or,  trying to explain attitudes of a bygone era without looking complicit. 

What may help is to recognize this at the outset, that both men and women had yin and yang aspects. The screwy part comes in when someone starts saying that Yin is female and Yang is male ,, and therefore women or men ,are not ideally , supposed to be certain things.

The way I gather that they considered the yin role , was as a setting, in which yang things occurred , and without which those manifestations didn't get to happen. The yin was unspecified potential , and yang was specific form. And that one could not approve of either stance without endorsing the reverse as also being valid  .... IMO 

 

I don't exactly know what a 'gender argument' is , nor a 'gender reading' ,, so at the very least you could feign confusion and petition to get out of a vague assignment you could not do , not understanding what was being asked.  

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

7 hours ago, Will said:

I've been assigned to write a research paper on "the construction of gender" for my English class.

 

Quote

The social construction of gender is a theory in feminism, and sociology about the origin of gender difference between men and women.^[1] According to this view, society and culture create gender roles, and these roles are prescribed as ideal or appropriate behavior for a person of that specific sex.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender

 

Who is forcing you to accept their ideological preconceptions?

[Will]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender

 

Who is forcing you to accept their ideological preconceptions?

 

Hehe good point. Although I can't say I really disagree with the theory. It makes sense, particularly from the "Zhuangzi" point of view, which seems to be that virtually everything is "socially constructed" (even the idea of "social construction"!)

 

@Marblehead, sorry to draw you into this haha, but just wondering if you can think of any passages or insights from Taoism (or other faiths, I suppose) about gender. Or have any other thoughts given what's been said so far in the thread. 

[wandelaar]

It seems to me that the early Taoists wanted to break free from social conventions to allow their inner nature (te) to express itself. An interesting point would be researching whether Chuang tzu thought gender roles derive from nature or nurture (or both). My guess is that Chuang tzu is in the nature camp, after all we also find different "gender roles" for males and females in the animal kingdom. But if it happens that you absolutely have to please the feminists to survive in the current postmodern academic environment you could describe Chuang tzu as a patriarchal badass. That is: if he indeed proves to be in the nature camp. Of course when Chuang tzu happens to believe gender roles are social constructions than that can be presented as one more "proof" that the feminist theory about the social construction of gender is correct. They will than happily accept him as an early precursor of their own superior (pre)conceptions. It also helps when you already are of the same persuasion as the postmodern feminists.

 

Happily I am no part of the postmodern academic milieu and can think and write what I like without having to worry about politically correct indoctrination or censorship.

Edited May 30, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Will said:

 

@Marblehead, sorry to draw you into this haha, but just wondering if you can think of any passages or insights from Taoism (or other faiths, I suppose) about gender. Or have any other thoughts given what's been said so far in the thread. 

I have been intentionally avoiding this thread.  "Gender role" is greatly over-played by media in the USA right now.  I have biases - I didn't want them to show.

 

However,

 

I do recall two mentions of women from Chuang Tzu.

 

The first is regarding the testing of a man where it states to get the man drunk to see how he behaves in the presence of women.  (This indicates to me that women were to be respected.)

 

The second is the story of a seeker going to a woman for guidance.  She says that she know the Way but does not have the attributes to be a Sage but that she can teach him the Way as he has the attributes to become a Sage.

 

I think, in general, the East has allowed women more flexibility than we of the West have.

 

[GOOWDAY]

I don't know how big your project is,Taoism has great respect for women. When I did some research on Taoist history, I was very interested in such topics. 

 

Because of Chuang-tzu, there had been a big outbreak of Queens in the middle of the Warring States period.Every big state had a very strong female politician, which had great influence on the situation at that time,Later no longer had such phenomenon again in chinese history.

 

Although some of the history has been revised by later Confucian scholars, there is still some information can prove that one of Chuang-tzu's students, She did a great thing, probably turned today's North Korea into a world - class power country over Thirty years.

 

Instead of using real history as evidence, just compares Taoist and Confucian Views on women ,there should be many similar papers, I am not very interested.And  it is difficult to find a gender argument from Chuang-tzu,good luck.

 

 

[LAOLONG]

Lao tze ,dao de cing,

Is what in philosophy

Is regard as

RADICAL FEMENISM

[wandelaar]

Maybe you could use this site to search for relevant parts of the Chuang tzu:

 

https://ctext.org/zhuangzi?searchu=female

 

(Try some other search terms also.)

 

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You could talk about eunuchs in ancient China, who were almost genderless and often held a great deal of power, largely because of their freedom to socialize with both powerful men and the female family members of royalty. There are many parallels, imo, to the roles of eunuchs of the past and the roles of gay men today, who might occupy positions due to the reduced threat they pose to women.

[wandelaar]

Quote

When people are born with good looks, you may hand them a mirror, but if you don't tell them, they will never know that they are better looking than others. Whether they know it or don't know it, whether they are told of it or are not told of it, however, their delightful good looks remain unchanged to the end, and others can go on endlessly admiring them - it is a matter of inborn nature. The sage loves other men, and men accordingly pin labels on him, but if they do not tell him, then he will never know that he loves other men. Whether he knows it or doesn't know it, whether he is told of it or is not told of it, however, his love for men remains unchanged to the end, and others can find endless security in it - it is a matter of inborn nature.

Source: https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu2.html#25

 

So Chuang tzu recognizes inborn nature. The post-modern idea that bodily beauty is a social construction is thus denied.