Animals, humans, gods… ?

[juan]

This suggests some kind of evolution. Animals are animals, we humans are one step above animals, as we are able to think. But still one step above, gods abide. And we should strive to climb this step, leaving our human-animal “level” behind.

 

Meditation seems to be a good vehicle for that, but if I understood it well, this means stopping the thinking process, leaving any thought and any idea behind. But thinking is what makes us human! With all senses turned inwards, just feeling the signals of your body, without interference of thoughts that pretend explaining them, what makes this consciousness different from animal consciousness? 

 

In other words: is this A->B->C progression real? Can we really jump from B to C leaving A and B behind? Could the second step be only an illusion and we are, we have always been, at step A? What happens then to  C?

[Nungali]

42 minutes ago, juan said:

This suggests some kind of evolution. Animals are animals, we humans are one step above animals, as we are able to think. But still one step above, gods abide. And we should strive to climb this step, leaving our human-animal “level” behind.

 

Hang on there ..... humans are animals too! We need to closely  examine the reasons and implications of thinking we are in a 'level' above them. of course there is a significant difference between the other animals and humans, and that difference is culture, not thinking, animals think ... of course they do. You can even see the thinking process and when they arrive at a conclusion or solution in their changing facial features.  Animal thinking is easily demonstrated in many species, including birds - especially the corvids.

 

Now the Gods. That is different, they are a projection of our culture;  a personified and deified projection of the mores and taboos of the local  societies collective supper-ego.

 

 

42 minutes ago, juan said:

 

Meditation seems to be a good vehicle for that, but if I understood it well, this means stopping the thinking process, leaving any thought and any idea behind.

 

meditation is a word that can mean many things, there are many different types of meditation aimed at different results.  But in our modern new age. dont worry about that, sit and be still, try not to think and Ommmmm and presto !  ....  its 'meditation' .

 

 

42 minutes ago, juan said:

 

But thinking is what makes us human!

 

Nope, sorry that is not correct.

 

 

42 minutes ago, juan said:

With all senses turned inwards, just feeling the signals of your body, without interference of thoughts that pretend explaining them, what makes this consciousness different from animal consciousness? 

 

In other words: is this A->B->C progression real?

 

No, it is based on false assumptions , which can have rather nasty implications ( for both animals and humans)

 

 

42 minutes ago, juan said:

 

 

 

Can we really jump from B to C leaving A and B behind? Could the second step be only an illusion and we are, we have always been, at step A?

 

Well, step     A^c   ( animal with culture)

 

 

42 minutes ago, juan said:

 

 

 

What happens then to  C?

 

 

It stays up there floating around in the cloud of the collective super ego . 

[silent thunder]

Been learning from the animals, plants and insects all my life.

 

I've also lived with several zen masters... all of them feline.

[Mudfoot]

And the gods are supposed to be less developed than a Buddha. 

[juan]

Thanks  for your comments 

 

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

 there is a significant difference between the other animals and humans, and that difference is culture, not thinking ... . 

 

Just watching wildlife documentaries we see that we share exactly the same drivers, survival and reproduction, even with the humblest animal. And when it comes to social animals the similarities are amazing: kings and heirs, treason and punishment… I have even seen a gang of dolphins passing a pufferfish along,  apparently some kind of ball game, but the pufferfish was really used as a joint, not as a ball. 

 

Do these behaviors prove that animals think? Maybe, if we define “thinking” more precisely. But what about culture? Survival, mating and social rules/rituals passed from one generation to the next is culture, and animals do that. So I am more of the opinion that even having a set of rules, a “culture”, does not make the difference. It’s the kind of culture what counts. 

 

This takes me to my main question. It is not about the difference between animals and humans, which doesn’t seem so big (even between gods and humans, thanks Mudfoot). We share the same opinion on that. But my main question is: What is the role of gods in this business? Animals may think and even display specific cultures, but don’t seem to have gods. Only humans, or rather, specific human cultures have gods. And more often than not I see the concepts of gods, of “divine beings” slipped here and there in meditation literature as if they were awaiting us at the other side of the rabbit hole. 

 

For a human/animal living in an atheistic culture this is a bit unnerving. Am I missing something? Or, perhaps, what other cultures call “divine” is merely the sight of our real nature?

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, juan said:

Thanks  for your comments 

 

 

Just watching wildlife documentaries we see that we share exactly the same drivers, survival and reproduction, even with the humblest animal. And when it comes to social animals the similarities are amazing: kings and heirs, treason and punishment… I have even seen a gang of dolphins passing a pufferfish along,  apparently some kind of ball game, but the pufferfish was really used as a joint, not as a ball. 

 

Do these behaviors prove that animals think? Maybe, if we define “thinking” more precisely.

 

yes, but it was not those animal behaviours I was referring to when I said  animals think , as I said above, some animals can be presented with a problem, you can see the expression on their face as they try to work it out and when they do their expression changes  to one of 'realisation' . Most people that own a dog have experienced this .

 

Also we can observe behaviours that are above the base conditions of most animals ( the bolded bits above )  and mammals and more specifically primates (the italicised  above ) , maybe 'thinking' is the wrong term here, perhaps 'realisation'

 

 

9 hours ago, juan said:

 

 

 

But what about culture? Survival, mating and social rules/rituals passed from one generation to the next is culture, and animals do that. So I am more of the opinion that even having a set of rules, a “culture”, does not make the difference. It’s the kind of culture what counts. 

 

I meant the common understanding of the term culture , not one tailored to fit a premise :

 

"Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, encompassing language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts.

 

The Center for Advance Research on Language Acquisition goes a step further, defining culture as shared patterns of behaviors and interactions, cognitive constructs and understanding that are learned by socialization. Thus, it can be seen as the growth of a group identity fostered by social patterns unique to the group. 

 

"Culture encompasses religion, food, what we wear, how we wear it, our language, marriage, music, what we believe is right or wrong, how we sit at the table, how we greet visitors, how we behave with loved ones, and a million other things," Cristina De Rossi, an anthropologist at Barnet and Southgate College in London, told Live Science.

 

The word "culture" derives from a French term, which in turn derives from the Latin "colere," which means to tend to the earth and grow, or cultivation and nurture. "It shares its etymology with a number of other words related to actively fostering growth," De Rossi said. "

 

https://www.livescience.com/21478-what-is-culture-definition-of-culture.html

 

 

 

9 hours ago, juan said:

 

This takes me to my main question. It is not about the difference between animals and humans, which doesn’t seem so big (even between gods and humans, thanks Mudfoot). We share the same opinion on that. But my main question is: What is the role of gods in this business?

 

To be the deified and personified  collective super ego of the  local cultural mores and taboos . 

 

To put it really simply  .... its just the way humans work    I can explain to a group of tribal people that if they continue a certain action, it will lead to a problem, even with proof and demonstration .... nope !   Put on a mask, dance around with a rattle and say big man in sky says so , and it will embed and become behaviour ,  mores, eventually religion  . The purpose or role of   the gods is to support and give authority to social constructs.

 

 

9 hours ago, juan said:

 

 

 

 

Animals may think and even display specific cultures, but don’t seem to have gods. Only humans, or rather, specific human cultures have gods. And more often than not I see the concepts of gods, of “divine beings” slipped here and there in meditation literature as if they were awaiting us at the other side of the rabbit hole. 

 

 

What about Gods that are part human part animal ?   Where do they fit in to your 3 fold scheme

 

Then again there is  'Puppy Jesus "

 

 

 

The Gods 'slipped in to' literature awaiting you on the other side  of the Rabbit Hole are there for the same reason of impetus  as they are with mores and taboos in a collective sense , but with this example  above it is  an individual impetus

 

 

9 hours ago, juan said:

 

For a human/animal living in an atheistic culture this is a bit unnerving. Am I missing something?

 

I think its just a matter of misinterpretation.

 

By now, you should not feel you missing something  ... unless these explanations are not sufficient .    If so, good luck trying to nut this all out .

 

 

9 hours ago, juan said:

 

 

Or, perhaps, what other cultures call “divine” is merely the sight of our real nature?

 

Thats another big rave , relating to psychology,  'divine' (when one examines the word in detail  ;   godly, godlike,  but also angelic, seraphic, saintly,  and even beatific  but also lovely, handsome, beautiful, good-looking, prepossessing, charming, delightful, appealing, engaging, winsome, ravishing, gorgeous, bewitching and beguiling;)  has extra connotations that suggest an inner desire to mate ourselves with the 'perfect partner' for ourselves ... that will never, and can never manifest.  

 

Liz Greene, the psychological astrologer has written some excellent stuff on this 'psychological drive' .

 

Again, this is another dynamic to help  'drive us on'.

[Gerard]

On 31/05/2018 at 7:59 AM, Nungali said:

 

Now the Gods. That is different, they are a projection of our culture;  a personified and deified projection of the mores and taboos of the local  societies collective supper-ego.

 

 

 

 

This is probably the best thing you have written here in a very long time. 

 

Spot on!

 

Same goes with demons and hells and all the Hindu, Islam, Buddhist and Christian nonsense; in other words, all the major religions.

 

Religion creates myths and taboos and as a result it brings more FEAR and GUILT in humans.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Gerard

[juan]

On 30/5/2018 at 11:59 PM, Nungali said:

Now the Gods. That is different, they are a projection of our culture;  a personified and deified projection of the mores and taboos of the local  societies collective supper-ego.

 

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

This is probably the best thing you have written here in a very long time. 

 

Well, thanks for your explanations. I will reflect upon this.

[silent thunder]

Gods as collectively created Tulpas...  potent.

 

If indeed as Buddha said...'be careful what you allow yourself dwell on and think, for it becomes your reality'.  Then the gods/tulpas/realms created by collective mind are as real as anything else in the realms of mind.

 

I'm reading Neil Gaiman's American Gods where Neil posits a burgeoning War between the Old World Gods brought to America by their followers who, (loosely and reluctantly brought together into a coalition by the remnant of Odin), are struggling in the modern world and under attack by the New Gods of America and the West.  The Gods of Television, Credit Banking, Advertising, Cars... etc.

 

Potent to consider the reality of that which we spend our mind energy upon garnering sufficient inertia to take on its own life essence.  Really has me wanting to reign in even further what I allow myself to consider, mull over and dwell on mentally.

 

Gods as the collective Tulpas of cultures. 

The alchemical process of The Golden Flower and the Golden Fetus.  Me creating a personal tulpa of pure yang... birthing it and then possessing it. 

 

Interesting stuff to wake up to... thanks again gang.  This place is amazing.

[Jeff]

On 5/30/2018 at 4:05 PM, juan said:

This suggests some kind of evolution. Animals are animals, we humans are one step above animals, as we are able to think. But still one step above, gods abide. And we should strive to climb this step, leaving our human-animal “level” behind.

 

Meditation seems to be a good vehicle for that, but if I understood it well, this means stopping the thinking process, leaving any thought and any idea behind. But thinking is what makes us human! With all senses turned inwards, just feeling the signals of your body, without interference of thoughts that pretend explaining them, what makes this consciousness different from animal consciousness? 

 

In other words: is this A->B->C progression real? Can we really jump from B to C leaving A and B behind? Could the second step be only an illusion and we are, we have always been, at step A? What happens then to  C?

 

Maybe think of the world and living more like a video game.  Yes, there is a progression of characters and some are much more powerful then others. But, is the goal to become the most powerful character, or more to realize and become one with the game itself?

 

Once truly realized, you can quit, take on a more powerful character, or help others to notice that it is a video game (so they have their own choice).

 

True Meditation is about trying to notice the nature of the video game. It is not about “stopping thought”, but it is often much easier to notice the nature of the video game when you have quieted all of the mental activity that keeps you focused (and trapped) in the video game.

[juan]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

...an inner desire to mate ourselves with the 'perfect partner' for ourselves ... that will never, and can never manifest.  

 

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Then the gods/tulpas/realms created by collective mind are as real as anything else in the realms of mind.

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

... to notice that it is a video game

 

Thank you all for our contribution. Now I think I have a clearer picture. Sorry I about derailed the conversation from the very beginning with my human-animal meme. This is really the gist of my question.

 

So, could a right conclusion be that gods, as anyting else existing in the realms of mind - your social character, your gender, your individuality, must be left at the door? Or, is there room for them to pass through the rabbit hole?

Edited June 1, 2018 by juan
misspelling

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, juan said:

 

 

 

Thank you all for our contribution. Now I think I have  clearer picture. Sorry I about derailed the conversation from the very beginning with my human-animal meme. This is really the gist of my question.

 

So, could a right conclusion be that gods, as anyting else existing in the realms of mind - your social character, your, gender, your individuality, must be left at the door? Or, is there room for them to pass through the rabbit hole?

 

How are you defining “mind”? Just the “local” version or more the “universal/shared” mind space?  Also, how do you define passing though the rabbit hole, as it means very different things to different people?

 

Start with... Do you “exist” as an independent being, or are you a subset of some other God/Brahman like thing? Each view leads to very different answers...

[silent thunder]

realization for me, reveals all notions of gods... self... other... all conceptual mental processes and creations... as living puppets of mist... sustained by my own mental inertia.  a mist that occludes... simple presence.  awareness.

 

to embody the simplest clarity of beingness, i had to release all else... so these objects of mind and processes of seeking would stop drowning out and covering in mist, the truth of raw awareness

 

release the gods, the thoughts of should and shouldn't, notions of proper and improper

realization for me remained hidden, in the end, by my own beloved meditations.

what a love meditations were to me... that liquid blissful sitting and qi gonging... became its own occlusion to realization

 

even this loving stillness and joyful motion occluded what was most natural, foundational

in the end, the last remaining occlusion to realization, was the very desire to acquire realization

 

this is what drove me to drop all practice in a form of rigid pursuit, or a regimented control factor

all forms of meditation still occur, but spontaneously, without prior intent and forethought

 

they arise as natural responses to the world which is an extension of my very presence

as inner exhales into outer and outer inhales the two mirror the truth of one awareness

 

wei wu wei... action without forcing... effortless force in spontenaity

 

realization for me could not be realized, while trying to realize it

[juan]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

How are you defining “mind”? Just the “local” version or more the “universal/shared” mind space?  Also, how do you define passing though the rabbit hole, as it means very different things to different people?

 

Start with... Do you “exist” as an independent being, or are you a subset of some other God/Brahman like thing? Each view leads to very different answers...

 

Pffff... let’s see...

Mind is indeed a very slippery term. I would say that mind is the set of rules that we use to define reality. I also think that all minds are local, encapsulated inside the skull, and this “mind space” could very well be an illusion. A lot has come inside us through the senses from our birth to distinguish a deeply rooted dogma from a universal/shared truth. Only we, each one of us, using our local mind, is responsible for the consequences of accepting any truth without verifying it.

 

Starting from “…do you exist as an independent being”, I would say that this perception is being challenged, yes. Everything seems to flow towards Oneness, the boundaries dilute.

 

To me, the rabbit hole is the omega point where all converges into One. Kind of singularity point, where you jump from zero to infinite.  Sounds poetic, a bit hollow maybe, but all we have is only words...

Edited June 1, 2018 by juan

[juan]

35 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

realization for me, reveals all notions of gods... self... other... all conceptual mental processes and creations... as living puppets of mist... sustained by my own mental inertia.  a mist that occludes... simple presence.  awareness.

 

to embody the simplest clarity of beingness, i had to release all else... so these objects of mind and processes of seeking would stop drowning out and covering in mist, the truth of raw awareness

 

release the gods, the thoughts of should and shouldn't, notions of proper and improper

realization for me remained hidden, in the end, by my own beloved meditations.

what a love meditations were to me... that liquid blissful sitting and qi gonging... became its own occlusion to realization

 

even this loving stillness and joyful motion occluded what was most natural, foundational

in the end, the last remaining occlusion to realization, was the very desire to acquire realization

 

this is what drove me to drop all practice in a form of rigid pursuit, or a regimented control factor

all forms of meditation still occur, but spontaneously, without prior intent and forethought

 

they arise as natural responses to the world which is an extension of my very presence

as inner exhales into outer and outer inhales the two mirror the truth of one awareness

 

wei wu wei... action without forcing... effortless force in spontenaity

 

realization for me could not be realized, while trying to realize it

 

Thanks, silent thunder. I deeply resonate with your words (bold is mine)

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, juan said:

 

Pffff... let’s see...

Mind is indeed a very slippery term. I would say that mind is the set of rules that we use to define reality. I also think that all minds are local, encapsulated inside the skull, and this “mind space” could very well be an illusion. A lot has come inside us through the senses from our birth to distinguish a deeply rooted dogma from a universal/shared truth. Only we, each one of us, using our local mind, is responsible for the consequences of accepting any truth without verifying it.

 

Starting from “…do you exist as an independent being”, I would say that this perception is being challenged, yes. Everything seems to flow towards Oneness, the boundaries dilute.

 

To me, the rabbit hole is the omega point where all converges into One. Kind of singularity point, where you jump from zero to infinite.  Sounds poetic, a bit hollow maybe, but all we have is only words...

 

Then if all minds are only local and encapsulated inside the skull, what is there to worry about? Going down the rabbit hole would simply be learning to quite your mind to the endless internal threads and ongoing dialogue. Staying focused in the moment and not getting caught up in past memories and not projecting fears worrying about the future.

[juan]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Then if all minds are only local and encapsulated inside the skull, what is there to worry about? Going down the rabbit hole would simply be learning to quite your mind to the endless internal threads and ongoing dialogue. Staying focused in the moment and not getting caught up in past memories and not projecting fears worrying about the future.

 

Absolutely. I even think that speaking about local or collective mind is irrelevant, we must simply get rid of mind constructs. And gods are (mostly collective) mind constructs, don’t they? But OK, let’s imagine they are real. Would they lend a hand? If this was possible, what would then be the merit? 

 

As I see it now, gods may be a powerful visualization object for people with deep religious beliefs, and this can be helpful, but only up to a certain point. So I will continue gladly with my “practice”, leaving gods outside of the equation, but now with a bit more confidence.

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, juan said:

 

Absolutely. I even think that speaking about local or collective mind is irrelevant, we must simply get rid of mind constructs. And gods are (mostly collective) mind constructs, don’t they? But OK, let’s imagine they are real. Would they lend a hand? If this was possible, what would then be the merit? 

 

As I see it now, gods may be a powerful visualization object for people with deep religious beliefs, and this can be helpful, but only up to a certain point. So I will continue gladly with my “practice”, leaving gods outside of the equation, but now with a bit more confidence.

 

If a mind is only encapsulated within the body, how can there be something like a collective mind construct? Would it not really then just be like multiple minds reading the same book and then having the same version of a story?

 

Yes, what I would call divine beings definitely lend a hand. The merit is in greatly accelerated clearing of obstructions (issues and fears) in the mind. 

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited June 10, 2018 by johndoe2012

[juan]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

If a mind is only encapsulated within the body, how can there be something like a collective mind construct? Would it not really then just be like multiple minds reading the same book and then having the same version of a story?

 

IMO that’s  the game, yes. There have always been people writing these books - politicians, religious leaders. From the dawn of Humanity. When you get enough people having the desired version of a story you gain a lot of power. Cambridge Analytica knows a lot about this.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes, what I would call divine beings definitely lend a hand. The merit is in greatly accelerated clearing of obstructions (issues and fears) in the mind. 

 

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

I would agree based on my experience getting help from divine beings. 

 

Though what you say about being focused on the moment: if there is a sense of someone then one still needs to release this concept of 'someone'. 

 

Let me tell you a bit about my experience. I came here via “tantric sex” with a physical partner, and I despised  visualization techniques, seeing them merely as a kind of substitute of the real thing. Even on my own, I was focused only in the “energy” feelings, not leaving thoughts to guide or interpret what these feelings were.

 

Some day, about one year ago, due to a series of circumstances, I gave visualization a try. The technique I tried consisted in fusing with a god, so for obvious reasons I replaced god by “perfect partner”. And, to my surprise, this worked extremely well. With a physical partner there is a strong feeling of fusion, but skin still marks the frontier between “me” and “other”. Making “sex” with this imaginary woman took me to a new place. We fused in lust at the LDT, we fused in love at the MDT, we fused in joy at the UDT. I never had these feelings, with such intensity, with a physical partner.

 

Was this imaginary woman a divine being lending a hand? According to the results,  I could say yes. I we see this process as an accelerated clearing of obstructions, definitely yes. But the woman was just my own creation! And - this is to me the most significant, I hope I am able to express it correctly - this ideal being was inside me, not outside. It was made of the same stuff as this other mental construct called “me”. There was no “someone”.

 

So, IMO, mind constructs (gods, ideal partners) can be useful to raise these feelings to new heights. But once the feeling is in place, mind constructs are (to me) more a hassle than a benefit.

[dawei]

On 5/30/2018 at 5:05 PM, juan said:

In other words: is this A->B->C progression real? 

 

Did the immaterial or material world arise first ? 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

Did the immaterial or material world arise first ? 

Yes.

 

[juan]

12 hours ago, dawei said:

Did the immaterial or material world arise first ? 

 

What’s the difference? I mean, the answer depends on how  we define matter, or, specially, what do we understand as immaterial world.

 

I checked Collins, and it says the following:
adjective: immaterial
1.
unimportant under the circumstances; irrelevant.
2.
PHILOSOPHY
spiritual, rather than physical.
"we have immaterial souls"

 

If we stick to the 2nd  definition, my guess is that the immaterial world can very well be an artifact built by our material minds, so the material world is first (and, quite probably, the only one). But without further agreement on the terms, my answer can only be the same as Marblehead’s. 

 

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, juan said:

my guess is that the immaterial world can very well be an artifact built by our material minds, so the material world is first

 

It's the opposite.  The material world is like 1% of the total.  It is contained in the immaterial.  Those who can see through the veil know this.  Beliefs are for bozos.

 

Some gods are created by belief, other gods are humans who have cultivated a certain way and are popular.

[Marblehead]

14 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

The material world is like 1% of the total. 

Actually, it's 4% but you are looking at it properly.