Islam: What The West Needs To Know

[arnquist]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s7m3r4Wla3s&feature=related

 

This documentary is pretty disturbing. It is mostly interviews with former radical Muslims. They say that true Islam is not just a religion, but the enforcement of Sharia law, which relegates all non-Muslims to Dhimmi status, that is second class citizens. True Muslims try to emulate the prophet Muhammad, who was essentially a warlord. Under Sharia law, by a principle called Taqiyya, lying is permitted if it is for the sake of spreading Islam (Koran 3:28, 16:106). One man describes how he acted entirely differently among westerners while watching news about Americans dying in the war in Iraq, but when he went home and was among his Arab friends they would have a party. When Islam is promoted as a peaceful religion it is the earlier parts of the Koran that they are quoting, which are by a tradition of abrogation (Koran 2:106) no longer valid because the later verses that Allah gave are better. Edward Said, who wrote a book called Orientalism, did a lot to promote Islam as a religion of peace and to make accusations that Islam is radical and warmongering seen as racist or bigoted. The strongest accusations come at the end of the film, they say that Islam is not a personal religion, it is a religion that from its beginnings had a geopolitical agenda, to spread Sharia law and Arabic culture across the world. Islamic law does not allow for treaties, only "Hudna" a temporary cease fire, an opportunity to gather strength. Islam is a totalitarian ideology similar to Communism or Nazism that believes its ends justify its means.

 

I'm just repeating what the documentary said, I'd like to do some fact checking of my own. Thoughts?

[satyagraha]

obviously the documentary is very biased. Who made it? thats an imporatant question. I think that most of the accusations are really only true with the radicals, as I have met, and know some very genuine, peace loving muslims. Try not to let the opinions of the movie instill in you about muslims, exactly what you dislike about their religion. You can't fight hate with hate. just an opinion. I didn't watch the movie though.

[Wayfarer64]

I will check out the movie ASAP-

 

Here in central NJ two of my best friends are Moslem and we kid around about our back-grounds (my father was a Jew) and such, often ...

 

The jokes may be bitter at times even cruel ...

but we use them to transcend and find humor in our all too human differences.

 

I am in fact understanding of world dislike of America right now ... our leadership has made us "the evil empire"...

 

Just by letting Big Oil and Big Biz -like the Carlyle Group dictate our foriegn policy...

 

The radicals are an implacable enemy that needs to be curtailed, Israel knows this for a long time.

 

The nuts have sway very often in our world, Sociopaths seem to grab power all too often, it is what they crave, and weak-minded populations allow themselves to be led astray in almost any direction...

[Oolong Rabbit]

Sounds like a load of total HORSE SHIT to me. Virtually every point you made can also be applied to Judaism/Israel and Christianity/West:

 

The second class citizen comment: just look at what Israel is doing to the Palestinians (supported by wacko fundamentalists in the west) . Also, I believe the Talmud refers to non-Jews as goyim (cattle).

 

Jehovah was a god of war, and the savagery of the old testament proves it.

 

The motto of the Israeli Mossad translates into "win by deception" and Israeli intelligence agents were caught videotaping 9-11 and high fiving one another.

 

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

 

The CIA used to blow up churches in South America and leave notes signed by the communist party. They overthrow rightfully elected governments and prop up dictators who are free to torture and rape as long as they do the bidding of the west.

 

Don't be brainwashed by propaghanda man.

 

Check out loose change and zeitgeist for starters.

 

Have to run, more later.

[Buddy]

"Sounds like a load of total HORSE SHIT to me. Virtually every point you made can also be applied to Judaism/Israel and Christianity/West"

 

Although I shouldn't comment, as I haven't watched it, I would tend to agree...

 

EXCEPT

 

There's no Jew or Christians in the public view (like bombing large American buildings or small Arab market places) trying to impose their religion on others.

[Wayfarer64]

"Sounds like a load of total HORSE SHIT to me. Virtually every point you made can also be applied to Judaism/Israel and Christianity/West"

 

Although I shouldn't comment, as I haven't watched it, I would tend to agree...

 

EXCEPT

 

There's no Jew or Christians in the public view (like bombing large American buildings or small Arab market places) trying to impose their religion on others.

 

I see many Christians trying to impose their views in somewhat non-violent means...(but the anti-abortionists certainly are violent) & Jahovah's witnesses just don't count, nor do the Falwell, Pat Robertson and their ilk I guess...? But why not, they sure try.

 

The division of church & state in the USA has disappeared since the Bushites have their mandate from heaven...

[Starjumper]

The division of church & state in the USA has disappeared since the Bushites have their mandate from heaven...

 

That's spelled Bushits. Sounds just like: bullshits

[Buddy]

Why do you have to go off topic? NO JEWS OR CHRISTIANS are trying to impose their religion on others by violent means. Islamists are. The Taliban blew up centuries old Buddhist mountain carvings. Al-Qaeda flew four plane killing thousands of innocent people. They continue (against the Q'uran) to kill Muslims in various countries.

[Oolong Rabbit]

[Buddy]

Are you shitting me? The Inquisition ended centuries ago. The rest of your arguments are moot because it absolutely doesn't address my point. And did I mention the Inquisition ended 400 freaking years ago?

 

"They just usurp their land and bulldoze whole neighborhoods while people are still inside (including American peace activist Rachel Corrie). Oh yeah, and then they erect an apartheid wall around their new land (paid for by US taxpayers)"

 

 

But they don't send suicide bombers to fly airplanes into buildings to kill FUCKING 6000 people!!!! NOR innocent people of their own fucking religion in their OWN neighborhoods!!! Are you a freaking IDIOT that you don't see the difference? Let's ask Iraqis what they think about your stupid ideas!

[Oolong Rabbit]

Buddy, trust me I could go on ad nauseum about this, but I am going to drop it. Believe whatever helps you sleep at night man.

[Taoist81]

Are you shitting me? The Inquisition ended centuries ago. The rest of your arguments are moot because it absolutely doesn't address my point. And did I mention the Inquisition ended 400 freaking years ago?

 

"They just usurp their land and bulldoze whole neighborhoods while people are still inside (including American peace activist Rachel Corrie). Oh yeah, and then they erect an apartheid wall around their new land (paid for by US taxpayers)"

But they don't send suicide bombers to fly airplanes into buildings to kill FUCKING 6000 people!!!! NOR innocent people of their own fucking religion in their OWN neighborhoods!!! Are you a freaking IDIOT that you don't see the difference? Let's ask Iraqis what they think about your stupid ideas!

 

That is true, now. However, had Jews, Christians, even Buddhists had the weapons and jet fuel that modern Islamists have they likely would have done the same. As George Carlin pointed out in his humorous commentary on the Ten Commandments, most religions have never really cared much about their various "Thou shalt not murder" doctrines when it came to people disagreeing with their concept of god or the afterlife. The main difference is that Islam is much younger than the others. The "peaceful" religions have had time to evolve out of their bronze age "morality" despite the fact that it remains in their (at least as far as the bible goes) Holy Books. Add to that a whole lot of oil and....well you have an explosive reinforcement of a persecution complex.

None of this justifies the atrocities that have been done in the name of Allah. They are that, atrocities. But the way to fight that is not to scream "To hell with Muslims". Rather it is to treat Islamic countries with respect and firmly hold to the Freedoms that one holds dear. Over time, cultures of more "lenience" dilute the more strict ones as long as the latter does not become the enemy it fights. Sun Tzu had it all those years ago when he said the greatest victories are those attained without fighting.

That said, Loose Change and the vast majority of Zeitgeist are Conspiracy nut propaganda. Real scientists, demolition experts and physicists have analyzed the evidence completely separate from the "911 Commission" and found that lacking as the Commission's report may be, the attacks happened as described. Was our gov. caught with its pants down or perhaps even pulling a Pearl Harbor? Maybe, but they weren't the ones that flew the planes.

Oswald shot Kennedy, the story of Genesis does not explain the fossil record, nor does "(un)Intelligent Design" and Osama Bin Ladin sent 20 hijackers, of which 19 made it, who flew planes into American targets.

[Buddy]

It's not a matter of saying "to hell with Muslims." And we can speculate till the cows come about what might have been. Many Muslims have spoken out loudly about the way these Wahabists have ruined their religion. In the long run, it will have to be up to them to take their religion back.

[Taoist81]

It's not a matter of saying "to hell with Muslims." And we can speculate till the cows come about what might have been. Many Muslims have spoken out loudly about the way these Wahabists have ruined their religion. In the long run, it will have to be up to them to take their religion back.

 

Very true. It is quite sad though, that the "moderate""majority" don't speak up as loudly as the "radicals". With all the riots over cartoons and murders over naked canvases for the Koran, but no riots or even peaceful protests over terrorist bombings. Admittedly, hate and anger have always tended to be more uniting than peace and love. Hence the hate filled speech that has always been spewed right along with "love thy neighbor".

[Cameron]

Half my family is Muslim. I was never into it, nor the Catholic half. But there was never any disrespect towards other traditions. Actually, from my understanding, Muslims consider Jesus a prophet/Holy man just not the "Son of God".

 

My feeling is if all organized religion disappeared tomorrow the world would probably be better off. It seems to be a tool to divide more than unite. At the very least we can say we can gage peoples level of awareness by there actions.

 

Such a confused topic. I work with an Israeli guy and there is just this sort of acceptance that there will always be animosity or even hate in the Middle East over religion, politics, some supposed ancient right to land etc etc etc.

 

I think the Taoist thing to do would be completely stay out of it and let the karma or whatever play itself out. Then you have the whole nuclear weapon issue which makes that seem complicated and of course when you have a "War President" can become a nice excuse to wage war.

 

Sometimes I really relate to Taoists who didn't get involved in politics

[Wayfarer64]

My understanding is that many -I think 15 of the 19 or 20 hi-jackers were Saudi Wahabbi-ists, a very powerful part of the Saud rise to power, and the House of Saud's obvious closeness to the Bush Family through the Carlyle Group etc... has me wondering who is fighting who for what oil...

 

Most of the warring factions in Lebanon /Israel are supplied with arms and money by other larger richer Oil States-

The whole scene is so corrupt that even the ancients would blush at the excesses of power these new men of power enjoy-

 

...

[Taoist81]

My understanding is that many -I think 15 of the 19 or 20 hi-jackers were Saudi Wahabbi-ists, a very powerful part of the Saud rise to power, and the House of Saud's obvious closeness to the Bush Family through the Carlyle Group etc... has me wondering who is fighting who for what oil...

 

Most of the warring factions in Lebanon /Israel are supplied with arms and money by other larger richer Oil States-

The whole scene is so corrupt that even the ancients would blush at the excesses of power these new men of power enjoy-

 

...

Do you think they would blush or turn green with envy? It really seems that somewhere in the collective unconscious Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Jesus, Zoroaster, the first few Dalai Lamas (come on, the current one stopped taking war-money from the CIA a couple years ago) and the rest are sitting there thinking, "damn, I wish we had internal combustion engines and machine guns when I was alive!"

[Gerard]

This is the real Islam:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

 

 

1. That is how speech does,

overflowing from silence (Rumi)

 

2. A Star Without a Name

 

When a baby is taken from the wet nurse,

 

it easily forgets her

 

and starts eating solid food.

 

 

Seeds feed awhile on ground,

 

then lift up into the sun.

 

 

So you should taste the filtered light

 

and work your way toward wisdom

 

with no personal covering.

 

 

That's how you came here, like a star

 

without a name. Move across the night sky

 

with those anonymous lights.

(Rumi)

 

3. Who is man?

The reflection of the Eternal Light.

 

What is the world?

A wave on the Everlasting Sea.

 

How could the reflection be cut off from the Light?

 

How could the wave be separate from the Sea?

 

Know that this reflection and this wave are that very Light and Sea. (Jami)

 

****************************

 

I don't see in any of those words anything related to violence or second-class citizens.

 

Radical Muslims use religion as a vehicle to feed their egos.

[Taoist81]

This is the real Islam:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

1. That is how speech does,

overflowing from silence (Rumi)

 

2. A Star Without a Name

 

When a baby is taken from the wet nurse,

 

it easily forgets her

 

and starts eating solid food.

 

 

Seeds feed awhile on ground,

 

then lift up into the sun.

So you should taste the filtered light

 

and work your way toward wisdom

 

with no personal covering.

That's how you came here, like a star

 

without a name. Move across the night sky

 

with those anonymous lights.

(Rumi)

 

3. Who is man?

The reflection of the Eternal Light.

 

What is the world?

A wave on the Everlasting Sea.

 

How could the reflection be cut off from the Light?

 

How could the wave be separate from the Sea?

 

Know that this reflection and this wave are that very Light and Sea. (Jami)

 

****************************

 

I don't see in any of those words anything related to violence or second-class citizens.

 

Radical Muslims use religion as a vehicle to feed their egos.

 

Sufism is definitely a beautiful form of Islam. However, Muhammad did his share of blood spilling, so "real" Islam may be a bit harder to difine. It would certainly be nice if Sufism was more prevelant. A friend from Saudi Arabia (a great guy, by the way) described Sufis as "crazy". He seems to be in the majority as far as many of the more powerful muslim nations feel right now. Sufis were only recently allowed to practice openly in Saudi Arabia.