After “waking”, realize that no one was asleep!

[MIchael80]

On 2.6.2018 at 9:23 AM, Bindi said:

The modern 'awakened' state doesn't seem to affect the deep karmic level, on which change doesn't occur. Samskaras remain. Rebirth is still necessary. 

 

 

That is a truth bindi!

 

Also i would not say that waking up is enlightenement at all. We have to be careful to use words more wisely in that field.

It is waking up...the first change in identity from being a person to the pure awarness underneath it. Usually there comes a "honeymoon" phase and after some time karmic cleansing starts at a higher rate. Which often results falling back into addictions and really dark emotions (i know of 2 people who where awake who commited suicide).

 

Awakening has to mature and to be embodied for that to occur. There are more shifts coming if one matures, one of the matures ones is beyond that infinite awarness into well........and then into something even more beyond, the source of the source.

 

From my expierence, this "there is nothing to be done" talk is often in the beginning or if it is not well embodied, after the awakening gets better embodied the talk usually changes to reflect that maturing. like awake beings that are matured talk, like Almaas, Aisha Salem or Scott Kiloby.

 

A friend of mine who is very awake has created a kind of "map" to show some of the primary shifts one can move through after initial awakening. I will post a summary here and the link to the full article.

 

The post-personal Stages in summary:
1 – Cosmic Consciousness (CC) or Self Realization (that is the stage that dwai talks about)
1a – Refined CC or God Consciousness (GC)
2 – Unity Consciousness (UC), Oneness or non-duality
2a – Refined Unity and God Realization
3 – Brahman or Beyond Consciousness
3a – Refined Brahman
3b – Parabrahman or Wholeness (that is the source of the source; the source of infinite awarness)

 

https://davidya.ca/2014/01/25/stages-of-development-in-consciousness/

 

best!

Edited June 3, 2018 by MIchael80

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

How would you know conclusively whether your realisation is the whole thing or just the beginning steps into the 'Intermediate Zone'? Traditionally a teacher is likely to say neti neti, go deeper, come back in a years time, go back to your cell and pray, or just give you a good whack with a stick. 

 

Sri Aurobindo on the Intermediate Zone

 

...These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted;what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfillment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfillment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true. At this stage the necessary knowledge and experience are usually lacking which would tell him that this is only a very uncertain and mixed beginning; he may not realise at once that he is still in the cosmic Ignorance, not in the cosmic Truth, much less in the Transcendental Truth, and that whatever formative or dynamic idea-truths may have come down into him are partial only and yet further diminished by their presentation to him by a still mixed consciousness. He may fail to realise also that if he rushes to apply what he is realising or receiving as if it were something definitive, he may either fall into confusion and error or else get shut up in some partial formation in which there may be an element of spiritual Truth but it is likely to be outweighed by more dubious mental and vital accretions that deform it altogether.

 

...This is in fact an intermediary state, a zone of transition between the ordinary consciousness in mind and the true Yoga knowledge... One may take up their abode in this intermediate zone, care to go no further and build there some half-truth which one takes for the whole truth or become the instrument of the powers of these transitional planes – this is what happens to many sadhaks and yogis.
 

–Sri Aurobindo

 

This is one of many reasons why following a trusted teacher and a time-tested wisdom lineage are so valuable.

 

 

[dwai]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

How would you know conclusively whether your realisation is the whole thing or just the beginning steps into the 'Intermediate Zone'? Traditionally a teacher is likely to say neti neti, go deeper, come back in a years time, go back to your cell and pray, or just give you a good whack with a stick. 

 

Sri Aurobindo on the Intermediate Zone

 

...These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted;what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfillment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfillment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true. At this stage the necessary knowledge and experience are usually lacking which would tell him that this is only a very uncertain and mixed beginning; he may not realise at once that he is still in the cosmic Ignorance, not in the cosmic Truth, much less in the Transcendental Truth, and that whatever formative or dynamic idea-truths may have come down into him are partial only and yet further diminished by their presentation to him by a still mixed consciousness. He may fail to realise also that if he rushes to apply what he is realising or receiving as if it were something definitive, he may either fall into confusion and error or else get shut up in some partial formation in which there may be an element of spiritual Truth but it is likely to be outweighed by more dubious mental and vital accretions that deform it altogether.

 

...This is in fact an intermediary state, a zone of transition between the ordinary consciousness in mind and the true Yoga knowledge... One may take up their abode in this intermediate zone, care to go no further and build there some half-truth which one takes for the whole truth or become the instrument of the powers of these transitional planes – this is what happens to many sadhaks and yogis.
 

–Sri Aurobindo

 

 

 

Only way to know is to go there by oneself. It’s important to become honest with oneself first. As the saying goes “you can fool the world but can’t fool yourself”...

 

What beings like Ramana Maharshi have suggested is universally considered “enlightenment”, including by those from the Shankaracharya lineage - the official standard bearers of Hindu dharma and Advaita Vedanta in the world.

 

Also one can intuitively know (in their heart) when discussing with someone who knows directly, vs a paper tiger. 

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

That is a truth bindi!

 

Also i would not say that waking up is enlightenement at all. We have to be careful to use words more wisely in that field.

It is waking up...the first change in identity from being a person to the pure awarness underneath it. Usually there comes a "honeymoon" phase and after some time karmic cleansing starts at a higher rate. Which often results falling back into addictions and really dark emotions (i know of 2 people who where awake who commited suicide).

 

Awakening has to mature and to be embodied for that to occur. There are more shifts coming if one matures, one of the matures ones is beyond that infinite awarness into well........and then into something even more beyond, the source of the source.

 

From my expierence, this "there is nothing to be done" talk is often in the beginning or if it is not well embodied, after the awakening gets better embodied the talk usually changes to reflect that maturing. like awake beings that are matured talk, like Almaas, Aisha Salem or Scott Kiloby.

 

A friend of mine who is very awake has created a kind of "map" to show some of the primary shifts one can move through after initial awakening. I will post a summary here and the link to the full article.

 

The post-personal Stages in summary:
1 – Cosmic Consciousness (CC) or Self Realization (that is the stage that dwai talks about)
1a – Refined CC or God Consciousness (GC)
2 – Unity Consciousness (UC), Oneness or non-duality
2a – Refined Unity and God Realization
3 – Brahman or Beyond Consciousness
3a – Refined Brahman
3b – Parabrahman or Wholeness (that is the source of the source; the source of infinite awarness)

 

https://davidya.ca/2014/01/25/stages-of-development-in-consciousness/

 

best!

Too many subcategories  

who is it that is defining and “working” on these? Jiva or Atman? 

[doc benway]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

As the saying goes “you can fool the world but can’t fool yourself”...

 

 

Not sure I buy into that statement...

[silent thunder]

teacher and teaching are as finger

 

finger pointing not to finger, but to mystery, to beingness

 

eventually, all will be transcended.  teacher.  teaching.  conceptual mind.

ultimate truth is wordless, silence, clarity, awareness...

 

we talk with words, which are models of beingness... aproximations. 

words... thoughts as concepts about beingness.  words are fingers.  they point to beingness, but do not encapsulate it.  the word water, the mental model/idea of water, will not slake thirst and cannot be drunk.  yet may be talked about endlessly... debated, agreed, argued... yet never in this realm... experienced.

 

words... mind artefacts... mental attempts to communicate and embody the non spoken truth experienced in beingness

 

this does not mean words are uselss... but a reminder the menu is not the meal

when all else fell away, what remains... awareness.  presence. 

[dwai]

A long video but thought it is germane to this discussion —

 

Spoiler

 

 

[MIchael80]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

Too many subcategories  

who is it that is defining and “working” on these? Jiva or Atman? 

 Hi dwai!

 

this is wordy in a sense but important is the general idea.  :-)

 

I think they apply well, but i would have left the refined phases out of an overall modell.

Have you read the article?

He also has put that into a book ("our natural potential" by david Buckland).

 

He actually talks about two interwind process........one are the shifts in being and the other is a refinement process (clearing out anger, wounds, etc and by that awakening to subtle levles of reality like how the devas work etc.)

 

for ex. the first shift to "pure consciousness/awarness" usually comes with the perception of "the world and all in it is an illsion".

the shift to "god realization" brings that to the experience "the world is a divine play (lila)"

and the shift to the "true unity" makes the world more concrete as as it becomes also the self. (awarness recognizes itself fully in the manifest)

when one goes "beyond awarness" the "expierence" is that nothing was ever created it was just a brief "thought" of of the source. (which is beyond or prior to infinte awareness).

"pure divinity" brings everything into existence....at first this infinite awareness out of which then everyhting comes.

 

so in evey major shift "reality" is experienced totally different.

there is no one doing it in the usual sense.....it happens by not clining to "being done" or "now i understand it all".

Most people in an awakened state usually think that they have it and there is nothing more.

 

Also how these "states" manifest seem to vary more than we usually think. There seem to be some who talk about the forming of a new "identiy" (not attached to)....a divine ego or an embodiment of the soul body....and this is the way like it is experienced here (and by david also). Aisha Salem talks aobut that and Almaas also.

To it seems like a natural forming of what neidan calls yangshen or in highest yoga tantra the "pure illusiory body"....but i will have to see myself.

 

I am not good with hindu terms dwai. As that is not my modell just one that seems to fit well (i found david because in meditation i "fell" out of infinite awarness and could not find any source that talks about that....but then found davids blog) we have to see how david uses those terms. As far as i know he uses "jiva" as the soul which has multiple lives and he uses "Atman" as the pure infinite consciousness. He uses "brahman" for the stage of "beyond/prior consciousness".

 

here is another link to some very awake who frame the process with more traditional terms but have a similiar "map"

https://www.lucialorn.net/states-of-consciousness

 

best!

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by MIchael80

[dwai]

4 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

 Hi dwai!

 

this is wordy in a sense but important is the general idea.  :-)

 

I think they apply well, but i would have left the refined phases out of an overall modell.

Have you read the article?

He also has put that into a book ("our natural potential" by david Buckland).

 

He actually talks about two interwind process........one are the shifts in being and the other is a refinement process (clearing out anger, wounds, etc and by that awakening to subtle levles of reality like how the devas work etc.)

 

for ex. the first shift to "pure consciousness/awarness" usually comes with the perception of "the world and all in it is an illsion".

the shift to "god realization" brings that to the experience "the world is a divine play (lila)"

and the shift to the "true unity" makes the world more concrete as as it becomes also the self. (awarness recognizes itself fully in the manifest)

when one goes "beyond awarness" the "expierence" is that nothing was ever created it was just a brief "thought" of of the source. (which is beyond or prior to infinte awareness).

"pure divinity" brings everything into existence....at first this infinite awareness out of which then everyhting comes.

 

so in evey major shift "reality" is experienced totally different.

there is no one doing it in the usual sense.....it happens by not clining to "being done" or "now i understand it all".

Most people in an awakened state usually think that they have it and there is nothing more.

 

Also how these "states" manifest seem to vary more than we usually think. There seem to be some who talk about the forming of a new "identiy" (not attached to)....a divine ego or an embodiment of the soul body....and this is the way like it is experienced here (and by david also). Aisha Salem talks aobut that and Almaas also.

To it seems like a natural forming of what neidan calls yangshen or in highest yoga tantra the "pure illusiory body"....but i will have to see myself.

 

I am not good with hindu terms dwai. As that is not my modell just one that seems to fit well (i found david because in meditation i "fell" out of infinite awarness and could not find any source that talks about that....but then found davids blog) we have to see how david uses those terms. As far as i know he uses "jiva" as the soul which has multiple lives and he uses "Atman" as the pure infinite consciousness. He uses "brahman" for the stage of "beyond/prior consciousness".

 

here is another link to some very awake who frame the process with more traditional terms but have a similiar "map"

https://www.lucialorn.net/states-of-consciousness

 

best!

 

Hi Michael,

 

i have only one question wrt to these levels. Who categorizes and attains them? Jiva or Atman? 

 

Jiva is the personality who thinks he/she is the body-mind and transmigrates. Atman is the nondual Self. 

 

Atman and Brahman are not separate. They are one and the same. So from Atman’s point of view there are no levels, nothing to attain, no states to be in. For the jiva there are only states that can be attained. But see, awakening is not about jiva attaining states, but the delusion of a separate jiva disappearing. So after that happens, old habits start to disappear (can be sudden or progressive), but jiva in no longer identified with. There is deepening of being but they are not states.

 

In classical Advaita there are three stages. First is of of realizing the emptiness of jiva, second of knowing directly that you are Atman/Brahman and finally the integration of the world back into atman/Brahman. 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by dwai

[dwai]

Updated video very relevant to this topic at hand (as to why and how there is nothing to be done) --

 

 

[MIchael80]

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

Hi Michael,

 

i have only one question wrt to these levels. Who categorizes and attains them? Jiva or Atman? 

 

Jiva is the personality who thinks he/she is the body-mind and transmigrates. Atman is the nondual Self. 

 

Atman and Brahman are not separate. They are one and the same. So from Atman’s point of view there are no levels, nothing to attain, no states to be in. For the jiva there are only states that can be attained. But see, awakening is not about jiva attaining states, but the delusion of a separate jiva disappearing. So after that happens, old habits start to disappear (can be sudden or progressive), but jiva in no longer identified with. There is deepening of being but they are not states.

 

In classical Advaita there are three stages. First is of of realizing the emptiness of jiva, second of knowing directly that you are Atman/Brahman and finally the integration of the world back into atman/Brahman. 

 

 

 

first, why not read the links? They are much more awake then i am :-) .....and it is clear in the writing that this is not about "someone" attaining something.

 

Again, the first point is what is called self-realization/cosmic consicousness etc.   the shift from being a person to the underlying awarness of everything. No one awakes in that sense....one wakes up from being a person....atman wakes up to itself one could say. and then discoves more subtle values of itself. (though in later stages the person itself starts to wake up too)

 

it is not about states, but stages.......the word stage could be misleading, when the reality is more a continual deepening/unfolding of Self to itself.....but some of this unfolding/deepening is experienced as major and so it is described as a stage. And at a certain point something wakes up from being the non-dual self, brahman, and then something wakes up from brahman.

 

I will leave it at that. It has all been said and the links speak for themselves. I just wanted to point out posibilities, because i do not like it when things are said as ultimate, when they aren't.

 

best

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

first, why not read the links? They are much more awake then i am :-) .....and it is clear in the writing that this is not about "someone" attaining something.

I'll take a look at the link for sure

7 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

 

Again, the first point is what is called self-realization/cosmic consicousness etc.   the shift from being a person to the underlying awarness of everything. No one awakes in that sense....one wakes up from being a person....atman wakes up to itself one could say. and then discoves more subtle values of itself. (though in later stages the person itself starts to wake up too)

 

it is not about states, but stages.......the word stage could be misleading, when the reality is more a continual deepening/unfolding of Self to itself.....but some of this unfolding/deepening is experienced as major and so it is described as a stage. And at a certain point something wakes up from being the non-dual self, brahman, and then something wakes up from brahman.

Nothing wakes up from being Brahman. Parabrahman is another way to articulate Brahman beyond experience -- in as much as Brahman is "experienced by Jiva" as Sat-Chit-Ananda. If something "wakes up from Brahman" then Brahman is not non dual  

 

Of course one could argue about "Nonduality implies duality" and so on....but they are just intellectual gymnastics and nothing more, imho...concepts created by the mind. Parabrahman (Beyond Brahman) means just giving up the concepts of Brahman and Jagat, that's all. 

 

Best

[MIchael80]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

I'll take a look at the link for sure

Nothing wakes up from being Brahman. Parabrahman is another way to articulate Brahman beyond experience -- in as much as Brahman is "experienced by Jiva" as Sat-Chit-Ananda. If something "wakes up from Brahman" then Brahman is not non dual  

 

Of course one could argue about "Nonduality implies duality" and so on....but they are just intellectual gymnastics and nothing more, imho...concepts created by the mind. Parabrahman (Beyond Brahman) means just giving up the concepts of Brahman and Jagat, that's all. 

 

Best

That is just untrue about brahman. there is something "beyond" brahman and it is not just giving up the concepts of it.

 

One could say that brahman discovers its own source. As this is beyond consciousness it is beyond duality and non-duality alike.

 

Sat-chit- ananda means absolute bliss consciousness. With regards to Davids modell brahman is not used to describe infinite awareness/consciounsess.......brahman is used for being prrior to or beyond infinite awarness/consioucness.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

That is just untrue about brahman. there is something "beyond" brahman and it is not just giving up the concepts of it.

 

One could say that brahman discovers its own source. As this is beyond consciousness it is beyond duality and non-duality alike.

 

Sat-chit- ananda means absolute bliss consciousness. With regards to Davids modell brahman is not used to describe infinite awareness/consciounsess.......brahman is used for being prrior to or beyond infinite awarness/consioucness.

Only thing to remember is that if it can be experienced, it is NOT IT.

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Only thing to remember is that if it can be experienced, it is NOT IT.

 

Also to remember: we are never NOT it.

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Only thing to remember is that if it can be experienced, it is NOT IT.

 

Is Sat-chit-ananda experienced by the awakened?

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Is Sat-chit-ananda experienced by the awakened?

By the jiva  

[MIchael80]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Only thing to remember is that if it can be experienced, it is NOT IT.

sigh........

Oh dwai......why are you playing semantics here?

 

These are words......how to communicate on a forum without words?

So you have not read the links........because they clearly talk about that these things are not experienced by a jiva,. person or whatever but are shifts in awerness itself and beyond it.

 

quote: (from lucialorn.net)

States of Consciousness
'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness.  It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness.  There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state.  These states cannot be missed.  Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. 

 

Cosmic Consciousness
or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself.  It is the first stage of Enlightenment.  It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are.  The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all.  The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind.  Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.  


It is not an altered state of Consciousness.  It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been.  It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being.  The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere.  Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.  

 

Beyond Consciousness
or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself.  It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness.  It is the clearest experience of Reality.  Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it.  It is beyond description.  It is pure Nothingness.  From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence.  The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something.  The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is.  It is truly indescribable.  It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.

Edited June 5, 2018 by MIchael80

[dwai]

5 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

sigh........

Oh dwai......why are you playing semantics here?

 

These are words......how to communicate on a forum without words?

So you have not read the links........because they clearly talk about that these things are not experienced by a jiva,. person or whatever but are shifts in awerness itself and beyond it.

 

quote: (from lucialorn.net)

States of Consciousness
'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness.  It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness.  There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state.  These states cannot be missed.  Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. 

 

Cosmic Consciousness
or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself.  It is the first stage of Enlightenment.  It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are.  The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all.  The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind.  Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.  


It is not an altered state of Consciousness.  It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been.  It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being.  The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere.  Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.  

 

Beyond Consciousness
or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself.  It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness.  It is the clearest experience of Reality.  Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it.  It is beyond description.  It is pure Nothingness.  From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence.  The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something.  The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is.  It is truly indescribable.  It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.

These definitions of levels reek of conceptualization to me. So the concepts of parabrahman or turiyatita are nothing but Brahman and turiya, just conceptualized as “beyond”. I too, believed that there was a “beyond Brahman”, but that is just a way of speaking. How can there be a beyond the beyond? 

 

As far as consciousness goes - what most people mistake for the Self, the “I am” is reflected awareness, which is the first principle available to sentient beings. It is not Brahman. It is still jiva but it is the purest essence of the jiva, which is reflected awareness of pure awareness (Atman). By abiding in this “I am” one is led to direct knowing of Brahman/Atman. 

 

See what Ramana Maharshi has to say on this topic — 

 

Quote

turIya and turyatita Peter The traditional view is that turIya is the non-dual, unconditioned consciousness (e.g. see Guadapada's Mandukya Karika). Sri Ramana refers to it as Pure Consciousness. It is the Atman. As it is "unconditioned consciousness", it is nirguNa brahman, which is also referred to as the parabrahman. Gaudapada explains that the three states of consciousness namely waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep (deep sleep) are characterized by two things: - "non-apprehension of reality"  - "mis-apprehension of reality".  "Reality" standing for turIya-Atman-Brahman. turIya is not a fourth state but rather the unconditioned consciousness which is the substratum for all three states. It is the one without a second, with no thing to know it and no other for it to know. Non-apprehension of Atman is the cause of ignorance. Mis-apprehension is the resultant effect which leads us to see ourselves and the world as other than we are - pure consciousness. For example, in the rope and snake analogy often used in Vedanta, non-apprehension of the rope is the cause of ignorance as to its true nature. Because of this non-apprehension we mistake it for a snake (mis-apprehension). As soon as we realize it is a really a rope, the snake disappears for it had no real existence apart from the rope, its substratum. In the same way, because we are ignorant of our true nature, we mistakenly identify ourselves with the body mind and see a separate world of objects. The sages tell us that when we recognize our true nature, turIya, then the duality of 'me' and 'other' (ego and world) disappears and non dual brahman is directly 'experienced' as alone existing. In his Mandukya Karika, Sri Gaudapada gives us a handy way of looking at turIya and the three states and which summarizes what is said above. Each may be characterized as follows: turIya (Atman): non-apprehension of duality;  praj~nA (deep sleep): non-apprehension of Reality and of duality;  taijasa (dream state): non-apprehension of and misapprehension of Reality;  vishva (waking state): non-apprehension of and misapprehension of Reality.  As far as I know, turyatita is not referred to in the major Upanishads. However, some of the minor Upanishads refer to five states: vishva, taijasa, praj~nA, turIya and turyatita. For example:  II.4. There are five AvasthA-s (states): jAgrat (waking), svapna (dreaming), suShupti (dreamless sleeping), the turIya (fourth) and turyatita (that beyond the fourth)...  II.5. The Yogin is one that has realised Brahman that is all-full beyond turIya.  (from "Mandala Brahmana Upanishad", Translated by K. Narayanasvami Aiyar)  and  5. There is nothing other than Brahman of the five padas (i.e. the turyatita)…  (from "Para-Brahma Upanishad", Translated by Prof. A. A. Ramanathan)  Sri Ramana Maharshi also refers to turyatita in a few places, though he normally explains the traditional view. The way I understand this is that the reference to turyatita has more to do with meditation practice than with the traditional view of metaphysics. Certain types of samAdhi (e.g. kevala nirvikalpa) don't really fit easily into the 3 states. It seems kevala nirvikalpa samAdhi certainly isn't the 'waking' or 'dream' state, and it also doesn't quite equate with 'deep sleep' for the latter is characterized by 'non-apprehension' of Reality. Nor does it quite equate with direct realization of Atman and therefore liberation, as it is a temporary state.  Another reason for five states, rather than four, is due to the stage of establishing oneself in the Witness State and recognizing that 'I am' is not any of the other three states. Perhaps here, the term 'turIya' is used to stand for the fourth state as the Witness State. However, the spiritual aspirant has yet to realize herself as the non-dual Brahman - a fifth 'state' (so called). Hence this latter stage is referred to as turyatita, beyond the fourth (turIya). Sri Ramana says as much when asked, "Why is the Self described both as the fourth state (turIya) and beyond the fourth state (turyatita)?" He replies:  "turIya means that which is the fourth. The experiencers (jIva-s) of the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep, known as vishva, taijasa and praj~nA, who wander successively in these three states, are not the Self. It is with the object of making this clear, namely that the Self is that which is different from them and which is the witness of these states, that it is called the fourth (turIya). When this is known, the three experiencers disappear and the idea that the Self is a witness, that it is the fourth, also disappears. That is why the Self is described as beyond the fourth (turyatita)."  (from, "Spiritual Instruction" no. 8.)  Apart from one or two passages like the above, Sri Ramana generally refers to turIya in the traditional way, as follows:  D.: What is turiya?  M.: There are three states only, the waking, dream and sleep. turIya is not a fourth one; it is what underlies these three. But people do not readily understand it. Therefore it is said that this is the fourth state and the only Reality. In fact it is not apart from anything, for it forms the substratum of all happenings; it is the only Truth; it is your very Being. The three states appear as fleeting phenomena on it and then sink into it alone. Therefore they are unreal.  (Talk 353.) Quotations of Sri Ramana are published with the kind permission of Sri Ramanasramam, where complete electronic copies of the relevant publications may be downloaded.

 

[Bindi]

Papaji’s “great experiment”???

 

Neo Advaita has evolved into the very dangerous idea that none of the traditional practices are necessary for liberation. At this point in time, it is the virulent dogmatic belief of many Neo Advaita teachers that anyone can become instantly liberated without any effort. This idea is based in complete and total ignorance of the science and practices essential for self-realization to take root in your consciousness. This idea of instant enlightenment often leaves the ego very much in charge—the enlightened ego—that keeps patterns of suffering recurring even after the most profound moments of realization or high states of consciousness. It also opens the door for megalomania...

 

Naturally, you can love the idea of instant enlightenment, but it is the pure fantasy of the western mind to think it is possible to bypass the rigors of spiritual practice essential for full self-realization.The harsh reality is you must work on yourself in the relative sense to realize the truth of you in the absolute sense—there is no bypass or short cut...

 

 

 https://kosi.co/read/2017/5/7/neo-advaita

Edited June 6, 2018 by Bindi

[johndoe2012]

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Edited June 10, 2018 by johndoe2012

[doc benway]

"No matter what circumstances or what worlds we find ourselves in, we are without any expectations or changes. We are just what we are, the Natural State which is like a mirror. It is clear and empty, and yet it reflects everything, all possible existences and all possible lifetimes. But it never changes and it does not depend on anything else. It is just itself, and nothing special. Even if the mind finds itself dull or drowsy or agitated, the Natural State is in no way disturbed or modified by this. So there is nothing to be removed and nothing to be purified in any particular way. For example, this is like the sun shining in the sky. It occurs naturally; no special work or effort is required. It is like a lamp illuminating a dark room it does this effortlessly. It is just the nature of the sun or the lamp to illuminate. There is nothing special to be done to remove the darkness. This is the pure view of Dzogchen."

 

~ Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche ~

 

 

[Bindi]

From Sam Harris' book Waking up, ch. 4:

 

”Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonjaji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional.

On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience.

When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters. Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of Dzogchen most closely resemble the teachings of Advaita. The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of consciousness, but, generally speaking, only Dzogchen makes it absolutely clear that one must practice this insight to the point of stability and that one can do so without succumbing to the dualistic striving that haunts most other paths.

At a certain point in our discussions with Tulku Urgyen, our Swiss prodigy declared her boundless freedom in terms similar to those she had used to such great effect with Poonja-ji. After a few highly amusing exchanges, during which we watched Tulku Urgyen struggle to understand what our translator was telling him, he gave a short laugh and looked the woman over with renewed interest.

“How long has it been since you were last lost in thought?” he asked.
“I haven’t had any thoughts for over a week,” the woman replied.
Tulku Urgyen smiled.
“A week?”
“Yes.”
“No thoughts?”
“No, my mind is completely still. It’s just pure consciousness.”
“That’s very interesting. Okay, so this is what is going to happen now: We are all
going to wait for you to have your next thought. There’s no hurry. We are all very patient
people. We are just going to sit here and wait. Please tell us when you notice a thought
arise in your mind.”

It is difficult to convey what a brilliant and subtle intervention this was. It may have been the most inspired moment of teaching I have ever witnessed. After a few moments, a look of doubt appeared on our friend’s face.

“Okay... Wait a minute... Oh... That could have been a thought there... Okay...”

Over the next thirty seconds, we watched this woman’s enlightenment completely unravel. It became clear that she had been merely thinking about how expansive her experience of consciousness had become—how it was perfectly free of thought, immaculate, just like space—without noticing that she was thinking incessantly. She had been telling herself the story of her enlightenment—and she had been getting away with it because she happened to be an extraordinarily happy person for whom everything was going very well for the time being.

This was the danger of nondual teachings of the sort that Poonja-ji was handing out to all comers. It was easy to delude oneself into thinking that one had achieved a permanent breakthrough, especially because he insisted that all breakthroughs must be permanent. What the Dzogchen teachings make clear, however, is that thinking about what is beyond thought is still thinking, and a glimpse of selflessness is generally only the beginning of a process that must reach fruition. Being able to stand perfectly free of the feeling of self is the start of one’s spiritual journey, not its end.”

[doc benway]

Great story!

 Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Fa Xin]

I think the idea of "Neo Advaita instant awakening" - as some put it -  is good for realizing this awareness - which goes beyond "just this body".  It is merely a shift of perception.  It's an important movement for the "real work" to begin, but in my experience, it wasn't a magic cure all, no matter how much I tried to tell myself otherwise... Fa Xin was still there with all of his hangups... but there was also a "quiet, stable base" that was not there before... (or maybe it was there all along? ) 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Fa Xin