Mair 17:6

[Marblehead]

When Master Hui was serving as the prime minister of Liang, Master Chuang set off to visit him.  Somebody said to Master Hui, "Master Chuang is coming and he wants to replace you as prime minister."  Whereupon Master Hui became afraid and had the kingdom searched for three days and three nights.

After Master Chuang arrived, he went to see Master Hui and said, "In the south there is a bird.  Its name is Yellow Phoenix.  Have you ever heard of it?  It takes off from the Southern Sea and flies to the Northern Sea.  It won't stop on any other tree but the kolanut; won't eat anything but bamboo seeds; {{Since bamboo flowers (and hence produces seeds) only rarely, some species as seldom as once a century, the fact that the Yellow Phoenix (which itself only appears at great intervals) will eat only its seeds means that it is very particular about its food.}} won't drink anything but sweet spring water.  There was once an owl that, having got hold of a putrid rat, looked up at the Yellow Phoenix as it was passing by and shouted 'shoo!'  Now, sir, do you wish to shoo me away from your kingdom of Liang?"

[OldDog]

This passage is kind of a continuation of 17:5 in that it shows Chuangtse's contempt of government. 

 

The general criticism that daoism (through Laotse) holds for government is that it is a suppression/corruption of the natural inclination of the people, who left to thier own natural instincts would self govern without need for contrived rules and regulations. Is Chuangtse's contempt based on that ... or because he views himself as superior (the yellow phoenix) to the government official (the owl managing its rat)? Seems like that would be a petty position to take ... but why else open contempt through such an analogy?

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, it is basically a supplemental for section 17:5.

 

Although Lao Tzu was more pro government than was Chuang Tzu, Lao still was able to see the flaws of government.  And I think this will always happen with governments.  The desire to control others is just too strong to resist and this eventually leads to corruption.

 

Sad that government of some form is still needed though.  And yes, I think that this is why Chuang Tzu was so anti-Confucius; Confucius wanted government to control all aspects of the peoples' life.  Chuang Tzu was happy dragging his tail in the mud without anyone telling him how to do it.

 

 

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Confucius wanted government to control all aspects of the peoples' life. 

 

I cut Confucius a little bit of slack ... but just a little. There was, as I understand it, a long Legalist tradition leading up to Confucius that directly advocated strict regulation backed by rewards and punishment. I have always kinda felt that Confucius was to societal interaction (decorum, manners, filial piety) as the Legalists were to government. 

 

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Sad that government of some form is still needed though

 

Yeah, I can't side with anarchists but Libertarianism is almost appealing. 

[LAOLONG]

On 11.6.2018 at 10:40 PM, Marblehead said:

When Master Hui was serving as the prime minister of Liang, Master Chuang set off to visit him.  Somebody said to Master Hui, "Master Chuang is coming and he wants to replace you as prime minister."  Whereupon Master Hui became afraid and had the kingdom searched for three days and three nights.

After Master Chuang arrived, he went to see Master Hui and said, "In the south there is a bird.  Its name is Yellow Phoenix.  Have you ever heard of it?  It takes off from the Southern Sea and flies to the Northern Sea.  It won't stop on any other tree but the kolanut; won't eat anything but bamboo seeds; {{Since bamboo flowers (and hence produces seeds) only rarely, some species as seldom as once a century, the fact that the Yellow Phoenix (which itself only appears at great intervals) will eat only its seeds means that it is very particular about its food.}} won't drink anything but sweet spring water.  There was once an owl that, having got hold of a putrid rat, looked up at the Yellow Phoenix as it was passing by and shouted 'shoo!'  Now, sir, do you wish to shoo me away from your kingdom of Liang?"

 Way of the seven chapters,

There is alchemy instracture

Corespodent with 1:1

Were the bird is going up

From north to south

And here its going dowen

South to north sea

Edited June 15, 2018 by ONE

[LAOLONG]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, it is basically a supplemental for section 17:5.

 

Although Lao Tzu was more pro government than was Chuang Tzu, Lao still was able to see the flaws of government.  And I think this will always happen with governments.  The desire to control others is just too strong to resist and this eventually leads to corruption.

 

 

 

 

Old master (Lao tzu)  in the 81
Chapters idea was a shadow government that the citizen
Are not aware to its existence .
It is the dark rulers .
Kung fu tzu was in favor of
So to say rulers exposed
To the light.
Old master idea is the dark shadow
Way is ruling the light way .

[wandelaar]

If I remember well Taoists didn't like to take part in government because of the loss of personal freedom that goes with it, but they were prepared to do so when the times were such that they could have a positive effect on society as a whole.

 

Confucius as I understand it didn't promote a totalitarian state, but he thought societal interaction could be regulated by decorum, manners, filial piety, etc. (as OldDog wrote). If I remember well there is a story about Confucius regarding filial piety as being more important than criminal law.

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by wandelaar

[LAOLONG]

It is complicated concept for people in the west to understand.
Taoist have an influence on weather ,
Nature , all around the globe and
On the Galaxy . Thy are one with
The nameless Tao that control the
Universe . In Japanese it is shin
Level . Shin is all so spirit and all so
God . 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, ONE said:

Old master idea is the dark shadow
Way is ruling the light way .

Yeah, the best ruler is the one who the people don't know exists.  (The people did it by themselves.)

 

[Taoist Texts]

18 hours ago, OldDog said:

a long Legalist tradition leading up to Confucius

historically legalism is linked to daoism; not confucianism

[OldDog]

Hmmm. Was not trying to equate Legalism to Confucianism ... nor say that Confucianism was directly derived from Legalism. Just the opposite, that whereas Legalism prescribed conduct of government, Confuscianism prescribed social conduct. 

 

In a sense, however, Daoism, Legalism and Confucianism must have had some influence on each other to the extent that they represent ways of thought that coexisted historically. 

 

Admittedly, I am not a historian but generally my sense has always been that of the three ways of thought Daoism has the older evolving tradition, followed by Legalism, then by Confucianism.

 

Perhaps someone more historically oriented than I can help clarify.

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, OldDog said:

Perhaps someone more historically oriented than I can help clarify.

Well, don't expect any input from me.  My knowledge of both Legalism and Confucianism is too weak for me to make any statements.

 

[LAOLONG]

All Chinese philosophy was born
In the war state period BC .
the Taoist, Confucian, legalist,
Philosophers all were trying to give
Political solution to china in mid
Of war between the states .

[LAOLONG]

The Chinese historically are practical
People in contrast to the people of India who had complicated metaphysics. Philosophy emerged
In china when there was a practical
Need for political thought in the Waring states period BC.

[LAOLONG]

7 minutes ago, ONE said:

The Chinese historically are practical
People in contrast to the people of India who had complicated metaphysics. Philosophy emerged
In china when there was a practical
Need for political thought in the Waring states period BC.

The cambers plant was known to the ancient Chinese but thy used it for ropes. In India thy smoked it (weed)and want on with metaphysics .

[Marblehead]

The Chinese used it to climb high and the Indians used it to get high.