Yinja Posted June 17, 2018 My thoughts, emotions and even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me like hiccups. What are we all trying to achive here? to bang our heads against a wall to ultimately realise there is nothing to change and nothing to achive? But is it not that the very moment of this realisation is also fixed somewhere in time and cannot be changed like everything else? Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? I find myself wonder about that often nowadays and most times very confused, but at times also very light as i see that i cannot make any mistakes, like a cloud in the wind. Yinja 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted June 17, 2018 47 minutes ago, Yinja said: Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? Because they desperately need to convince others that they're special because they need disciples. Without followers they are nothing. How can any of them be a teacher if they don't have (needy) pupils? ☮️ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yinja Posted June 17, 2018 You make it sound like its a bad thing.. are they not a creation of nature as marvelous and one of a kind as any? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted June 17, 2018 Excrement is a creation of nature and wonderful in its own right. I still flush it down the toilet rather than leaving it to stink and create disease. ☮️ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yinja Posted June 17, 2018 Fare enough but it dosnt really makes things clearer for me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted June 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Yinja said: Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? The sage teaches without speaking. So if you go to a 'teacher' who majors in speaking then he usually isn't a sage. I wonder where you got the idea that there is nothing you can do about it and nothing you can do to understand you cant do anything about it? There IS something you can do to 'wake up', as you say, and it seems to me that any good teacher will offer that solution, and it should be the main reason that they are speaking, to get people to practice the solution. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Starjumper said: The sage teaches without speaking. Hi Steve, My Teacher does not speak much - almost to being silent. Yet I have to listen. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Yinja said: My thoughts, emotions and even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me like hiccups. Hi Yinja, Thoughts, emotions, will, decisions, actions... - are energy-based, Is it possible that hiccups may arise if there are mismatches in frequencies? - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Daemon said: Because they desperately need to convince others that they're special because they need disciples. Without followers they are nothing. How can any of them be a teacher if they don't have (needy) pupils? Demon shows his true colors. Edited June 17, 2018 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 46 minutes ago, Starjumper said: colors Hi Steve, I like your new colors - cool. - Anand 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 17, 2018 Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right. Henry Ford Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Limahong said: Hi Yinja, Thoughts, emotions, will, decisions, actions... - are energy-based, Is it possible that hiccups may arise if there are mismatches in frequencies? - LimA forgive me, but that seemed a little too new agey for Einstein. Not that he was averse to metaphysics. In any case, according to the quote investigator.. it's not from Albert- https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/05/16/everything-energy/ according to the site above this is as close as he got- Albert Einstein did speak about the relationship between matter and energy. The following quote is from a 1948 film called “Atomic Physics” [AEAP]: It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing — a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Edited June 17, 2018 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yinja Posted June 17, 2018 Folks i appreciate what you have to say but it dosnt answer my question In other words what is not 100% automatic in us? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Yinja said: My thoughts, emotions and even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me like hiccups. This means you are not aware of the process, thats all . This awareness needs training. It can be achieved, it just means you have not been able to do it or have not attempted to do it and perhaps do not realise it can be done. There are lots of different meditations to work with; one is seizing one of these 'spontaneously' arising thoughts and trace it back observing its formation and development. The same with 'will' ... actually, this ;tracing back' and identifying origins and examining weather they are 'yours' or have been instilled is a very important art of finding your true will ... for example, if one has a desire to enter a certain career, what spurned that desire; expectations of society / family, or your own ? Sometimes, when examining this you might have to 'peel the layers off,' . 4 hours ago, Yinja said: What are we all trying to achive here? to bang our heads against a wall to ultimately realise there is nothing to change and nothing to achive? Thats a strangely negative statement. There is a lot to achieve ; the development of the self to its fullest potential for example. You can not go beyond the boundary of your fullest development , some things might NOT be able to change but how do you know, at this stage, what your fullest potential is ? It might be a lot more than you realise at this stage . 4 hours ago, Yinja said: But is it not that the very moment of this realisation is also fixed somewhere in time and cannot be changed like everything else? Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? Maybe your 'if ' is wrong ? Maybe there is something that can be done . 4 hours ago, Yinja said: I find myself wonder about that often nowadays and most times very confused, but at times also very light as i see that i cannot make any mistakes, like a cloud in the wind. Yinja Oh well ... if you never make or cannot make a mistake, I take all that stuff I wrote up there back ......... carrry on then . 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Yinja said: Folks i appreciate what you have to say but it dosnt answer my question In other words what is not 100% automatic in us? You could be 'in a rut' in your life , thats why you developed this attitude . get out and do something totally different for a while ! Find some new stimulus . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, thelerner said: forgive me, but that seemed a little too new agey for Einstein. Hi thelerner, Is it... Or... Bro - no 'forgive'. We learn together. - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, Nungali said: ... get out and do something totally different for a while ! Hi Nungali, Now I am going to do something totally different from what I had been doing the whole day - I am going to sleep. Good night. - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right. Hi Michael Sternbach, Sure - but our thinking must be black. - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nungali said: Oh well ... if you never make or cannot make a mistake, I take all that stuff I wrote up there back ......... carrry on then . He already made his mistake. Edited June 18, 2018 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yinja Posted June 18, 2018 Im sorry if it sounds negetive I still have a very strong feeling that there is beauty to it and that the way of life is the ultimate way of living. Still i cant see any of you point to something which is in your control. I suggest give it a bit of thought because it sure is tricky. you speak of alot of decision making like they are main to make. also the observation you mention is no different. you will see you are moved by enviroment (i just want to make sense in this not to make my own statement) Here is a quote from a book the way i remember it. If you can make a decision well than there must be a point when you decide to decide... and decide to decide to decide and so on in an endless regression. so you see if you were free to decide you couldnt and if youare not free to decide you can decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) I see your perspective as the natural outcome of popular but ungrounded spiritual philosophies. To me they bear the burden of blame. 16 hours ago, Yinja said: My thoughts, emotions and even my will and decisions supposedly the most free of my actions arise from within me like hiccups. What are we all trying to achive here? to bang our heads against a wall to ultimately realise there is nothing to change and nothing to achive? But is it not that the very moment of this realisation is also fixed somewhere in time and cannot be changed like everything else? Why do spiritual teachers plead us to wake up if there is nothing we can do about it and nothing we can do to understand we cant do anything about it? I find myself wonder about that often nowadays and most times very confused, but at times also very light as i see that i cannot make any mistakes, like a cloud in the wind. Yinja As far as I can see you've fallen for the popular neo-advaitan trap. Nothing to do, everything is perfect right now. As far as I'm concerned it's a terrible Western scam that has been embraced by popular opinion, and can lead to nowhere good. 'Most times confused and sometimes like a cloud in the wind.' The cloud in the wind good feeling is the ungrounded reward that keeps people hanging on to the fantasy of sudden non-dual awakening. Edited June 18, 2018 by Bindi 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yinja Posted June 18, 2018 I dont think its Neo at all This type of reflections came to me after reading the Way of Zen by Alan Watts years ago ive read it but nothing sank and now i find it hard to ignore. I still dont think its an excuse for anything as you discover that a cloud in the wind can dance and sing and be spontanious as nature itself So to me it seems exactly what Zen talks about and there is nothing grim about it. Bindi, there is no reward of this kind of thinking for us who are identified with our ego. it rips the ground under our feet. (atlist at first) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Yinja said: I'm sorry if it sounds negative... Hi Yinja, You do not appear as negative to me but just someone trying to get out of a grave buried with words. Your quote - If you can make a decision well than there must be a point when you decide to decide... and decide to decide to decide and so on in an endless regression. so you see if you were free to decide you couldn't and if you are not free to decide you can decide - has ONE decision linked to EIGHT decide's. Perhaps you can say this to decision so that you do not have to decide - Then take a walk in the sun with the rain - - LimA Edited June 18, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted June 18, 2018 27 minutes ago, Yinja said: I dont think its Neo at all This type of reflections came to me after reading the Way of Zen by Alan Watts years ago ive read it but nothing sank and now i find it hard to ignore. I still dont think its an excuse for anything as you discover that a cloud in the wind can dance and sing and be spontanious as nature itself So to me it seems exactly what Zen talks about and there is nothing grim about it. Bindi, there is no reward of this kind of thinking for us who are identified with our ego. it rips the ground under our feet. (atlist at first) This Alan Watts? http://www.philosophyforlife.org/the-lazy-mysticism-of-alan-watts/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
