Is there any actual physiological changes in the abdomen when the lower dantian gets filled with qi?

[voidisyinyang]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0ahUKEwjpirag1ebbAhVp0YMKHfwNBfoQFgheMA4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nieuwarchief.nl%2Fserie5%2Fpdf%2Fnaw5-2010-11-4-250.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0cwUfPd8qk06beUiBxWc6r

 

pdf interview with Connes:

 

Quote

A fascinating aspect of music...is that it allows one to develop further one's perception of the passing of time. This needs to be understood much better. Why is time passing? Or better: Why do we have the impression that time is passes? Because we are immersed in the heat bath of the 3K radiation from the Big Bang?...time emerges from noncommutativity.

 

So I have the quote of him clearly stating that music is a universal scaling system that is because of noncommutative phase and it has a geometric dimension of zero, just as a quantum sphere. So it models the quantum sphere and this noncommutative phase music will never be out of tune. So it INCLUDES western tuning - but it is not quite the same as Western tuning. haha.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.tony5m17h.net/musPhys.html

 

Here someone else transcribed Alain Connes "Triangle of Thoughts" book - and it makes the quote I posted.

Quote

 

I think we migh succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which several states coexist ...

the problem of adaptation ... has to be resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally schizoid in nature.

It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer science. ...".

 

Quote

 

And it could be formalized by music.

...I think we might succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal

with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which

several states coexist, whereas our ordinary logical allows room for only

one. Finally, we come back to the problem of adaptation, which has to be

resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and

interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally

schizoid in nature. It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with

the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer

science. That will no doubt enable us to cross new borders and to better

integrate the mathematical formalism of the quantum world into our

metaphysical system.”

 

 

Well I did a MUCH better job at transcribing the book - this person skipped sentences, etc.

[voidisyinyang]

35 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

I don’t want to upset you by being accusational, and you already have provided a lot of help to me for understanding Daoism and music theory, so for that i’m very grateful, as I have said before.

it’s just that you said I seemed to not try to understand what you were saying, or that you said I was practicing ‘willful ignorance’. But I spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand what you were trying to say.

 

However I’m too tired on trying to understand, and besides in the past few weeks I’ve had a lot of spare time but these days I’ll be working and I have no more time or energy to try and understand such advanced theories anymore. It’s too much for me. Maybe someone else will continue the conversation if they’re interested. 

 

Thanks for everything, that’s all from me.

 

Qigong Master Yan Xin says that his healing energy is a "virtual information field." - so even the Chinese qigong masters are turning to quantum physics to explain what they do. haha.

Qigong master Chunyi Lin even said to me - how I would be studying quantum physics to explain the experiences I've had. Qigong master Chunyi Lin read the book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot - and qigong master Chunyi Lin said that book is an "accurate" description of what his reality is like.

So if you want to "Understand' - quantum physics is the foundation of science now. It is not a matter of what "spare time" affords - your ability to use a computer is due to quantum physics - and all of the information technologies.

But there is a deeper mystery to quantum physics - and the Copenhagen Interpretation tries to dismiss it as "woo woo." haha. Actually the nonwestern meditation, trance dance training corroborates the de Broglie model of quantum physics.

So you can say you don't have "time" to understand.

Again I urge you to seek out a qigong master to experience the truth. Then after that - how you experience time will dramatically change. You exist WITHIN time - and so TIME has YOU - not the other way around. haha.

 

And so whether you want to "explain" these nonwestern experiences or not - in terms of Western science - that is up to you. But that is the research I am offering and the questions you asked - APPEARED to be legitimate. But as you admit now - any mention of quantum physics was just something you IGNORED and "turned off." Your brain rejected it. haha.

 

What I am telling you is that nonwestern music theory EXPLAINS quantum physics! I am not the only one! Alain Connes does the same thing. And yet you make excuses - that you need advanced training in physics, etc. No - you just need to UNLEARN all the Western lies.

 

Like the quote i just gave you. The person gives a good explanation of music theory - but then SUDDENLY projects his WESTERN bias onto the empirical evidence! SUDDENLY he insists that the Octave and the Perfect Fifth NEED to "line up" - can time "line up" with geometry? Really? Is time some material physical thing that can be geometrically lined up? Why does time need to be a visual cycle? haha.

 

All human cultures use the 1-4-5 music intervals - and yet you insist this is too complicated a way to understand quantum physics. haha. Alain Connes gives a lecture - and you cite someone claiming I am not even quoting the lecture - and the person only watched HALF the lecture!! Hilarious.

 

Seriously - if you just WATCH the lecture - you will find my quotes to be precise.

 

The only quote that is not from the lecture - is from that 2004 source that I just cited. So it is Alain Connes giving the same information of music theory - corroborating his lecture.

 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

 

Another said he was doing his masters in mathematics, and even he didn’t understand the quotes. So if he doesn’t understand, and I don’t understand, then what’s the point?

 

http://noncommutativegeometry.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-music-of-spheres.html

Quote

What about the relation with music? One finds quickly that music is best based on the scale (spectrum) which consists of all positive integer powers qn for the real number q=2112∼3119. Due to the exponential growth of this spectrum, it cannot correspond to a familiar shape but to an object of dimension less than any strictly positive number. As explained in the talk, there is a beautiful space which has the correct spectrum: the quantum sphere of Poddles, Dabrowski, Sitarz, Brain, Landi et all. Its spectrum consists of a slight variant of the qj where each appears with multiplicity O(j). (See the original  paper of  Dabrowski and Sitarz arXiv:math/0209048 (Banach Center Publications, 61, 49-58, 2003) for the precise formula, and the paper of Brain and Landi arXiv:math/1003.2150 for a variant and the many references to the mathematicians involved, my apologies to each of them for not puting the list here.)
 We experiment in the talk with this spectrum and show how well suited it is for playing music.
The new geometry  which encodes such new spaces, is then introduced in its spectral form, it is noncommutative geometry, which is then confronted with physics.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Perhaps you would like to provide some evidence to back up your claim that....

This is a quite vague over-generalization but does sound very convenient on your part. haha.

If you make an accusation you need to provide evidence.

Otherwise it's called a False Accusation.

I remember one directly. 

 

You claimed that a study with about 20 participants gave good enough statistics, while the authors of that study wrote that the study population was too small. 

 

So at least that one is not a false accusation. 

 

Since I don't save these for later use, I do not have a collection for you, but in one of the quantum references you quotes where you put up the model as a fact, the author used (I do not remember if it was "might" or "maybe"), hinting at that this is NOT YET proven with tests. 

It might be, so I am not saying it is wrong. 

 

And, your reactions to the Coons clips recently was, in my opinion, way of. 

 

I could go back and do more of these, but that would not change anything. You will continue to write, and now and then I will check up the reference and be disappointed. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Step 1 : define if it works or not

 

Is there any actual scientific evidence that when the lower dantian gets filled with qi, the individual get access to a series of benefits described in Taoist classic texts ?

 

Step 2: understand how it works... 

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Is there any actual scientific evidence that when the lower dantian gets filled with qi, the individual get access to a series of benefits described in Taoist classic texts ?

 

In my experience, most of the benefits that I'm interested in come when someone has a lot of energy in their head, like this:

 

 

Only the head energy is considerably bigger than is depicted in the painting, and with big aura around the whole body.

 

... and the white dragon has yellow eyes, not green.

 

First requirement is having a big aura in the whole body, like this:

 

 

Which comes from energy work that makes you look something like this"

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Starjumper

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I remember one directly. 

 

You claimed that a study with about 20 participants gave good enough statistics, while the authors of that study wrote that the study population was too small. 

Occupational sitting behaviour and its relationship with back pain – A ...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687016300515

by R Zemp - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 10 - ‎Related articles

Occupational sitting behaviour was quantified in 20 subjects

 

I stated this study "did not seem to be a problem."

So now let's read the study to see what it says....

 

Quote

However, as a pilot study, this investigation now provides clear indications as to the required direction of future studies for improved understanding of the relationship between sitting behaviour and back pain. ...we were able to illustrate the influence of back pain on sitting behaviour, even with low levels of back pain as well as a low number of subjects.

 

So like I said - "doesn't seem to be a problem."

 

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

So at least that one is not a false accusation. 

 

Yeah it was a false accusation - I just debunked it.

 

 

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Since I don't save these for later use, I do not have a collection for you, but in one of the quantum references you quotes where you put up the model as a fact, the author used (I do not remember if it was "might" or "maybe"), hinting at that this is NOT YET proven with tests. 

 

I have repeatedly written that science is our current mythology - so a model is not a fact. Evidence can be considered facts but quantum physics is inherently interactive due the "measurement problem." So you would have to provide details.

 

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

 

And, your reactions to the Coons clips recently was, in my opinion, way of. 

 

Way off? Do you have an specifics? Or are you just an "unsatisfied customer?"

 

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I could go back and do more of these, but that would not change anything. You will continue to write, and now and then I will check up the reference and be disappointed. 

 

Oh Disappointed? Wow - like a crying boy in the Mall? haha. Again this is vague and a blatant over-generalization. The ONE specific you gave turned out to be false.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

On 6/22/2018 at 12:55 AM, Phoenix3 said:

 

I agree completely that quantum physics language is totally unnecessary to explain ancient concepts of pythagorean music theory or anatomy or philosophy. But that’s just my opinion.

 

 

 

Quote

"On the other hand, the ancient Pythagorean musical scales naturally lead to a simple quantum circle....There is something profoundly quantum in all music. A discrete space–the skeleton hosting any musical score, morphs into a true musical form, only after being symbiotically enveloped by a geometry of sound. And this geometry is inherently quantum, as it connects the points of the discrete underlying structure, invalidating the difference between now, then, here and there; thus creating an irreducible continuum for a piece of music: continuous discreteness and discrete continuity."

 

Durdevich, Micho
Institute of Mathematics, UNAM (Mexico City)
“Music of Quantum Circles” 10/2015

[gj551]

penile detumescence

[windwalker]

This clip explains a little of whats going on although its in Chinese

 

He talks and shows some of the physiological changes to the dantain,  and some  dietary recommendations.   

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by windwalker

[Limahong]

On 6/22/2018 at 1:15 PM, Mudfoot said:

On the other hand, the masters of old managed quite well without that theory, so it is very likely that a modern practitioner can manage without it as well. 

 

Hi Mudfoot,

 

When it is 'theory' versus 'practice', I prefer to opt for the latter as it affords me first-hand experiential knowledge on a road less traveled.

 

- LimA

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

Maybe, in another 10-20 years, the field of biological quantum whatever will be mature enough to be useful to understand some of the experiences in meditation. 

 

On the other hand, the masters of old managed quite well without that theory, so it is very likely that a modern practitioner can manage without it as well. 

The gastrointestinal-brain axis in humans as an evolutionary advance of the root-leaf axis in plants: A hypothesis linking quantum effects of light on serotonin and auxin

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319853175_The_gastrointestinal-brain_axis_in_humans_as_an_evolutionary_advance_of_the_root-leaf_axis_in_plants_A_hypothesis_linking_quantum_effects_of_light_on_serotonin_and_auxin

 

Here we have quantum biology confirming the "ancients of old"  - that the practice of visualizing light in the gut - resonates the biophotons there - as alchemy.

 

Quote

Plants interact with light and use it for biological energy, whereas, neurons in the central nervous system seem to interact with bio-photons and use them for proper brain function. Further, as auxin drives roots "arborescence" within the soil, similarly serotonin seems to facilitate enteric nervous system connectivity within the human gastro-intestinal tract. This auxin/serotonin parallel suggests the root-branches axis in plants may be an evolutionary precursor to the gastro-intestinal-brain axis in humans. Finally, we hypothesize that light might be an important factor, both in gastro-intestinal dynamics and brain function. Such a comparison may indicate a key role for the interaction of light and serotonin in neuronal physiology (possibly in both the central nervous system and the enteric nervous system), and according to recent work, mind and consciousness.

 

Nice to know the latest science backs up the ancients.

 

For the details of how to practice then read Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - it's like a cook book. Not exactly theory as much as detailed instructions - which, ironically, are corroborated by the most cutting edge science: quantum biology.

 

Quote

the element of fire in spirit goes down to scorch the element of water in the lower abdomen which will be transformed into steam that will soar up linking the heart and lower abdomen.

 

[Limahong]

On 6/18/2018 at 6:16 AM, Phoenix3 said:

I don’t mean the usual changes in sensation (like changes in temperature), but is there any physical change?

 

Hi Phoenix3,

 

Your thread reads - "Is there any actual physiological changes in the abdomen when the lower dantian gets filled with qi?" 

 

I did a quick scan of all the posts in this thread from the perspective of the chakras and I found this chakral picture from Starjumper:

 

 

 

His focus was not on the seven chakras per se.

 

But I am borrowing his picture to link lower three chakras with the lower dantian thus:

 

 

I had used the above heart chakra picture before in another thread. From it I am inclined to associate the lower dantian with the 'lower energetic forces'.

 

Any comments from anyone from a chakral perspective - re what your thread has begged?

 

- LimA

[Phoenix3]

21 hours ago, windwalker said:

This clip explains a little of whats going on although its in Chinese

 

He talks and shows some of the physiological changes to the dantain,  and some  dietary recommendations.   

 

That sounds interesting, but I don’t speak cantonese. Can anyone translate?

[Phoenix3]

I don’t think the chakras have anything to do with the dantian. I think it’s more to do with the spine. But  i could be wrong.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Phoenix3

[Limahong]

51 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

I don’t think the chakras have anything to do with the dantian. I think it’s more to do with the spine.

 

Hi Phoenix3,

 

Please advise - which is more to do with the spine ~ chakras or dantian?

 

- LimA

[Phoenix3]

I think chakras are more to do with the spine. Could be wrong though.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

I think chakras are more to do with the spine. Could be wrong though.

 

Hi Phoenix3,

 

My perceptions of the chakras are still evolving - lifelong learning without a teacher.

 

Guess as long as I remain open minded - my capacity to learn will not diminish.

 

At the moment my understanding of the chakras is  holistically associated with this picture:

 

*Left - nadis   *Centre - spine   *Right - coloured/sequential energy centres

 

At the earlier stages of my inward path, I had all the above mental models in my mind - inclusion is better exclusion.

 

But as I above along - I become more discerning with the manifestations in my body.

 

These pictures started to make sense to me:

 

 

 

 

As I started to join the dots coherently/experientially - I can follow quite well other fellow seekers' perspectives/perceptions. 

 

For instance  I can accept where Starjumper is coming from - with respect to this:

 

On 6/22/2018 at 10:09 PM, Starjumper said:

First requirement is having a big aura in the whole body, like this:

 

 

Which comes from energy work that makes you look something like this:

 

 

 

I can identify with the above 'electrified' tree. Why?

 

I had experienced once - golden light flushing/gushing (a) into my body through my feet (b) travelled throughout my body and (c) out of my head,

 

- LimA

Edited June 30, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

I don’t think the chakras have anything to do with the dantian. I think it’s more to do with the spine. But  i could be wrong.

 

I think the lower tan tien is the second chakra, the middle is the fourth, and the upper tan tien is the sixth.

 

11 minutes ago, Limahong said:

I can identify with the above 'electrified' tree. Why?

 

I had experienced once - golden light flushing/gushing (a) into my body through my feet (b) travelled throughout my body and (c) out of my head,

 

Muy bueno!

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

I think the lower tan tien is the second chakra, the middle is the fourth, and the upper tan tien is the sixth.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Muy bueno!

 

 

 

- Anand

Edited June 30, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[freeform]

I’m afraid I didn’t read through all the endless sciencey sounding stuff. These days I prefer to stay within the framework of the system I’m working with (alchemical taoism).

 

To answer the original question - yes there is a very physical structure that is created. It’s the size of maybe a grapefruit and it can move and sort of rotate. It’s not a ‘qi belly’ as the chubbier qigong ‘masters’ claim sometimes - but the vertical line in the stomach muscles does disappear. 

 

I dont have this this sort of dan tien yet, but I can feel the tissues building there and they tug and stretch when I practice.

 

Incidentally the chakras are from a different system and shouldn’t be mixed up with Taoism. All these centres and things are mapped out as an aid to actual practice - not as a sort of a stand-alone anatomical study.

 

In Taoist internal practices there are centres that correlate with the chakras (the 7 spinal fires) but these exist on a different ‘plane’ than do the Dan Tien which are closer to the physical plane. There’s really no need to study them unless your practices are directly related to them. 

[voidisyinyang]

On 6/27/2018 at 3:48 PM, gj551 said:

penile detumescence

Quote

it will crystallize into the immortal seed and only then can the genital organ shrink as in babyhood.

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

[gj551]

they use to say "pics or didnt happen" ;>   well there must be at least one single person having a physiologically changed/altered body structure because of practicing these daoist methods... i'm in search of a photograph of these results, like, a pic of a youthful body despite the person being 80 years old or something like this

 

[voidisyinyang]

12 hours ago, gj551 said:

they use to say "pics or didnt happen" ;>   well there must be at least one single person having a physiologically changed/altered body structure because of practicing these daoist methods... i'm in search of a photograph of these results, like, a pic of a youthful body despite the person being 80 years old or something like this

 

 

I already linked the vid above - so you just need to "thumbnail" a "pic" from that vid.