Breathing comes from his heels?

[wandelaar]

In the Chuang tzu we read:

Quote

The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow.

 

What does that mean?

Edited June 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[LAOLONG]

What is the cinese character

For it ,and what it mean in

Anciant chinese .

I THINK THE MEANING IS

DEEP BREATHING 

[Marblehead]

53 minutes ago, ONE said:

I THINK THE MEANING IS

DEEP BREATHING 

That is how I have always taken the meaning of "breathing from the heels".

 

 

[cheya]

It is not just breathing air... which of course does not make any sense. It is drawing a palpable energy flow up from the heels as you breathe, energizing the whole body. This is easiest to learn, or feel, when you breathe in at the same time, but eventually you can just start and maintain that flow with intention. 

[joeblast]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

In the Chuang tzu we read:

 

What does that mean?

it means go investigate the extraordinary vessels  

[EmeraldHead]

Thank you for this beautiful topic. It is fascinating that this comes from around 4th century BC !

 

This means, at least to me,     deep breathing -

 

You can start once or twice a day. Sit down on the edge of a chair or bed, erect (straight back) and start training for belly breathing, until it becomes natural.

 

Then once you're a belly breather, train for 'vase breathing'. That is on INHALE - belly expands then chest and upper chest fills -> EXHALE - belly draws in then chest and upper chest getting warmed up/and exercised from it. The breathing is like the motor of a furnance. This view of it links into some deep physical disciplines (to our calendars, 'of old') that can even have roots to goetic traditions. None on that later. 

 

As you breath deep, on the inhale direct the breath deep, all the way to the heels. Not just belly. You may familiar with Eliot Hulse's breathe into your balls! Well breathe all the way down to your heels rather

 

Don't stress it. Just passively do a little every day or so. In time you will find yourself breathin properly.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Arramu

[wandelaar]

Crucial question here: did Chuang tzu promote an esoteric breathing practice, or was it just a manner of speaking?

[EmeraldHead]

I think like the rest of the quote, it is simply "a manner of speaking". Nowadays, most people may think throat or even mouth breathing (:/) is normal and healthy and probably the only way. So wrooong. But back then it would have been well known. I think nowadays things like do your bed, wake up early, be productive, exercise, get your life sorted, etc. are just as intuitively known as that quote was back then.

 

To further feed this, if I'm not wrong, any special practice that results from/involves the breath revolves around holding the breath or specific breathing patterns (timing). 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Arramu

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, cheya said:

It is not just breathing air... which of course does not make any sense. It is drawing a palpable energy flow up from the heels as you breathe, energizing the whole body. This is easiest to learn, or feel, when you breathe in at the same time, but eventually you can just start and maintain that flow with intention. 

 

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Crucial question here: did Chuang tzu promote an esoteric breathing practice, or was it just a manner of speaking?

 

The breath in more ancient times also referred to energy movement, sometimes called the subtle breath.  This is speaking of drawing in energy from the ground through the feet.  As Cheya says it can be facilitated by actual breathing at the same time but this is a more fundamentalist approach and creates some bad habits.  It is more of a pure way to use the hands, and once you get it started, to simply focus on your feet, which is also calming.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Starjumper

[voidisyinyang]

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

In the Chuang tzu we read:

 

What does that mean?

Quote

When this state is reached it is necessary to practise immortal breathing through the heel channel starting from the heels and the trunk channel from the lower abdomen to the brain (see figure 7 page 91), in order to achieve the self-turning of the wheel of the law, called the macro- cosmic orbit or the free circulation of vital breathing through the former and down through the latter channel to restore the profound foetal breathing which wipes out all postnatal conditions so that prenatal vitality can be transmuted into a bright pearl that illuminates the brain. This means that after the sublimation of the generative force, vitality and spirit, they gather in the brain where, under constant pressure from prenatal vitality and spirit, they will in time produce an ambrosia. This ambrosia (which is not to be confused with the golden elixir) then produces and nurtures the immortal seed in the lower tan t’ien cavity under the navel, where it radiates, lighting up the heart.

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

Quote

Figure 7 The heel and trunk channels. 1 the heel channel (lung chung) from the heels to the brain. 2 the trunk channel (tung ti) from the lower abdomen to the brain.

Quote

(The shutting ( ho) and opening ( p’i) process of immortal breathing causes postnatal vital breath to rise from the heels up to the channel of control through which it soars to the brain, thence going down in the channel of function to the trunk (i.e. the mortal gate).

Quote

 

Quote

Postnatal vital breath is ‘inhaled* through the heels and ‘exhaled’ through the trunk for the purpose of vibrating prenatal true vitality in the lower tan t’ien (under the navel). So an in-breath from the heels to lift postnatal breath in the channel of control is followed by an out-breath from the trunk to lower it in the channel of function, and, as time passes, these continued ascents and descents will set in motion prenatal true vitality in the lower tan t’ien centre, which will then automatically rise in the channel of control to the brain causing postnatal vital breath there to sink in the channel of function to the mortal gate. When prenatal true vitality drops in the channel of function to the mortal gate, it forces postnatal vital breath there to go up in the channel of control to the brain. These are four movements of postnatal vital breath and prenatal true vitality without the breathing of outer air through the nostrils or mouth coming into play.

Quote

these alternating ascents and descents which make four movements up and down are not caused by breathing through the nostrils and mouth, but by post¬ natal inner breath which starts from the heels and the mortal gate (at the root of the penis); this is postnatal (vital) breath which while descending and ascending drives pre¬ natal vitality up the channel of control (tu mo in the spine) to the brain and thence down through the channel of function (jen mo) to the cavity of mortality, that is ascent and descent of prenatal vitality in these two main channels.

 

[wandelaar]

Because of the quote I tried the following:

 

During breathing in I imagined the breath to come in via my feet and legs to my belly. I noticed that my attention was thereby displaced from my head to my lower body, and that in that way my head with all its raving thoughts calmed down. So apart from possible esoteric meanings the extra technique from the quote is actually of help in my daily meditation. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Crucial question here: did Chuang tzu promote an esoteric breathing practice, or was it just a manner of speaking?

I think it was mostly just an observation.  But he did prefer breathing from the heels (deep breathing) over short gasps from the upper lungs.

 

I can't recall any other place in the Chuang Tzu where this is mentioned.

 

[Lost in Translation]

I've always felt this to be metaphor for deep, slow breathing (from the diaphragm - just like professional singers are taught) combined with a meditative state that includes visualizing the breath as it flows up from the ground and through the heels. That's what I practice. I find the visualization helps, at least initially. After a while slow, deep breathing becomes more natural.

 

Thank you for this topic. I am reminded that I need to practice more.

[voidisyinyang]

Just so people know - this is not a metaphor. I referenced Taoist Yoga - with the link - to encourage people to read the book. It is not until chapter 9 that the immortal breathing kicks in. I assure you that at this stage you feel your hands and feet strongly pulsating with qi - and even the top of the skull gets soft from the qi pulsating. That is how strong the qi is. So that is why "normal breathing" is not necessary - or next to not necessary.

 

 

[Phoenix3]

14 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

Just so people know - this is not a metaphor. I referenced Taoist Yoga - with the link - to encourage people to read the book. It is not until chapter 9 that the immortal breathing kicks in. I assure you that at this stage you feel your hands and feet strongly pulsating with qi - and even the top of the skull gets soft from the qi pulsating. That is how strong the qi is. So that is why "normal breathing" is not necessary - or next to not necessary.

 

 

 

I have read Taoist Yoga a long time ago. Have you spoken to the author of this website: http://daoistmeditation.com/ ? He is active on this forum too, but I forgot his username. He read the original Chinese manuscripts that book was based on, and he didn’t seem that impressed with it. 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Phoenix3

[voidisyinyang]

4 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I have read Taoist Yoga a long time ago. Have you spoken to the author of this website: http://daoistmeditation.com/ ? He is active on this forum too, but I forgot his username. He read the original Chinese manuscripts that book was based on, and he didn’t seem that impressed with it. 

 

 

The book is actually based on a 1615 book.

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-supreme-polarity-of-time-how.html

I blogged on it.

 

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/how-the-xingming-gui-zhi-influenced-zhao-bichenrsquos-manual.html

 

This is the actual Chinese lineage of the author of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality.

 

So the Taoist Yoga book is excellent - it just needs supplementation by the book it is based on - the 1615 book.

And then the general principles of the book remain consistent across the different styles of training in martial arts or in meditation.

 

The main problem with "Westernization" of these teachings is people just want to "Market" them and so don't necessarily go into the in-depth training required for real results. Celibacy is the foundation of the training - and so the "post-natal qi" is the yin qi - that is created from food but also created from the Earth energy - and hence the heel breathing as the post-natal vitality.

 

 

 

 

[Phoenix3]

31 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

The book is actually based on a 1615 book.

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-supreme-polarity-of-time-how.html

I blogged on it.

 

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/how-the-xingming-gui-zhi-influenced-zhao-bichenrsquos-manual.html

 

This is the actual Chinese lineage of the author of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality.

 

So the Taoist Yoga book is excellent - it just needs supplementation by the book it is based on - the 1615 book.

And then the general principles of the book remain consistent across the different styles of training in martial arts or in meditation.

 

The main problem with "Westernization" of these teachings is people just want to "Market" them and so don't necessarily go into the in-depth training required for real results. Celibacy is the foundation of the training - and so the "post-natal qi" is the yin qi - that is created from food but also created from the Earth energy - and hence the heel breathing as the post-natal vitality.

 

I found where he talks about it: 

 

Perhaps he didn’t really criticise it as I thought he did, but he did say that it is not part of Neidan and it is not authentic Daoist meditation which agrees with other forms of Daoist meditation.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Phoenix3

[Michael Sternbach]

22 hours ago, cheya said:

It is not just breathing air... which of course does not make any sense. It is drawing a palpable energy flow up from the heels as you breathe, energizing the whole body. This is easiest to learn, or feel, when you breathe in at the same time, but eventually you can just start and maintain that flow with intention. 

 

This is essentially what is taught also in Taiji: Chi enters through the feet, moves up through the body and is finally manifested as power in a martial technique. And the same applies to Taiji as a healing art as well.

 

This is not to say that 'Earth chi' is the only kind there is, but it is, well, a fundamental one.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Michael Sternbach
Typo

[voidisyinyang]

11 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I found where he talks about it: 

 

Perhaps he didn’t really criticise it as I thought he did, but he did say that it is not part of Neidan and it is not authentic Daoist meditation which agrees with other forms of Daoist meditation.

 

 

Quote

Neidan breathing is always slender and silent,

If this is his "evidence" that the Taoist Yoga book is not neidan then it is wrong:

Quote

four movements up and down are not caused by breathing through the nostrils and mouth,

The book is translated by Charles Luk, not "authored" by Charles Luk as he implies.

And the lineage of the book is the Dragon Gate school which is an "authentic" Daoist school.

Also the book is offered as free download on their site - they are against the "marketing" of Neidan.

Quote

These are four movements of postnatal vital breath and prenatal true vitality without the breathing of outer air through the nostrils or mouth coming into play.

So let's stick to the content of the thread instead of accusations of whether something is "authentic" or not. haha. The evidence he presents is wrong so that doesn't bode well for his claim.

Quote

external practices which are not neidan

Debunked.

Edited June 20, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[Aletheia]

 Jamesteaking is a well known charlatan. He's the guy who turns up at the golf club in a brand new BMW, wears the funny trousers, silly hat, has the latest golf clubs, -- really looks and sounds the part when he walks in to the club house etc.

 

And yet when it really comes down to it he can't even hit the ball off the tee. All talk and no action -

 

 

Like the "Einstein of consciousness" Ken Wilber, neither understands the effects western literacy has in disassociating the "mind" from the body. Freudian neuroses bubbling up from the unconscious body, along with the realisation that there's more to the world than can be objectively measured and quantified are effects of a new media environment bringing the old ways into view. Present environments are always invisible -

 

 

Electronic technology is an outering of the central nervous system -- walls and partitions come down, egos become permeable, nation states fall, particles are no longer discrete and atomistic etc.

 

What if funny is with the outdated western ego comes objective certainty, like with the sciences, so sure as can be Wilber and that jamestreak character are certain they know what they're talking about.

[Marblehead]

But still standing is the suggestion that proper breathing is very important during meditation and normal everyday activities as well.

 

There are some people who talk out of their ass - they probably breath through it too.

 

[Aletheia]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But still standing is the suggestion that proper breathing is very important during meditation and normal everyday activities as well.

 

There are some people who talk out of their ass - they probably breath through it too.

 

 

A good way to weed out the fakes is to ask them what they are willing to bet that they really know what they're talking about. Take it to an authentic qigong master and the winnings go to charity.

[Marblehead]

You do understand that I will not speak against or in favor of any particular practice, right?

 

I have said before, if it works for you then do it; if it doesn't then stop.

 

[Aletheia]

Wilber doesn't understand Gebser, although frankly Gebser has some holes in his game tbh. The mind/body split occurs first in Plato's Phaedo dialogue, I think. Which concerns the soul and timesless forms.

[Aletheia]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

You do understand that I will not speak against or in favor of any particular practice, right?

 

I have said before, if it works for you then do it; if it doesn't then stop.

 

 

That's not how it works. There are a lot of fakes about with no real energy, not a drop of wisdom in their words. There are so many that they drown out people who really know what they're talking about. As such, everyone loses out.