What is a Daoist?

[Marblehead]

Yeah, it was difficult for me to admit that Religious and Alchemic Taoism (Taoists) are just as valid as Philosophical Taoism.

 

Better to not label.  But then, I like labelling myself.  I even have other people labelling me and in many cases it ain't Taoist (whatever).

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Taoist do all things...in moderation

 

They live between heaven and earth. their success is due to their failures. Doing is applying the principles that bring peace and harmony into their lives. knowing is doing and doing is knowing.

 

They walk the earth but have not left their true home. They are active and still,

 

The only way to know what a Taoist does is by their silly hats if we examine the hat closely and watch how it follows the head. then is the Tao following the hat or is the hat following Tao. 

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, it was difficult for me to admit that Religious and Alchemic Taoism (Taoists) are just as valid as Philosophical Taoism.

 

If there were an absolute criterion for validity it might be that one form of Taoism is more valid than another. But who is to judge about the absolute criterion for validity? (The same problem is discussed somewhere in the Chuang tzu). So I think it is not so much that all different forms of Taoism are equally valid (for how could we know that?),  but that all forms of Taoism are valid on the basis of their own criteria of validity. And that proposition is much easier to accept, because than we don't have to betray our own form of Taoism. Objectively speaking the degrees of validity of for instance esoteric and philosophical Taoism are not equal but incomparable. The only thing that can be said is that all forms of Taoism (apart from complete nonsense) are valid from the perspective of their own criteria of validity. And the last thing is a simple fact. 

 

Quote

Better to not label.  But then, I like labelling myself.  I even have other people labelling me and in many cases it ain't Taoist (whatever).

Labeling is an absolute necessity in daily life. One could not talk about anything without words (= labels).

Edited June 22, 2018 by wandelaar

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But in my opinion one goes against the very basics of Taoism by claiming to be a real Taoist as opposed to Taoists of other persuasions, because in that case you value the claim to a label and corresponding status above the experience itself.

 

Duhh, maybe some Taoists will accept other Taoists of different persuasions.  Maybe some people call themselves real Taoists on Taoist forums in order to trick others into thinking they value the claim to a label and corresponding status above the experience itself.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Starjumper

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, it was difficult for me to admit that Religious and Alchemic Taoism (Taoists) are just as valid as Philosophical Taoism.

 

Better to not label.  But then, I like labelling myself.  I even have other people labelling me and in many cases it ain't Taoist (whatever).

 

 

After much reflection, I did come to accept the division into science, philosophy and spirituality (which term I prefer over 'religion') as useful, and the three types of Daoism you mentioned reflect that scheme.

 

But I agree that we shouldn't label Daoist topics too rigorously. That would not be in keeping with the spirit of this philosophy... Err, religion... Um, whatever...

[Lost in Translation]

55 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

The only thing that can be said is that all forms of Taoism (apart from complete nonsense) are valid from the perspective of their own criteria of validity. And the last thing is a simple fact. 

 

But how does one know what is "complete nonsense?"

[Starjumper]

31 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

After much reflection, I did come to accept the division into science, philosophy and spirituality (which term I prefer over 'religion') as useful, and the three types of Daoism you mentioned reflect that scheme.

 

This type of division is mainly a Western Academic invention, because Western academics need to divide things into widdle pieces in order to better analyze them with their widdle minds.  They have difficulty seeing the big picture.  A good description that I have seen is that Taoism is like a big river which contains different streams that sometimes diverge and then later return and intermingle.

 

"It goes far away, and then returns, because it is powerful"  TTC

Edited June 22, 2018 by Starjumper

[wandelaar]

50 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

But how does one know what is "complete nonsense?"

 

Lets take the silly hats for an example. Suppose somebody claims to be a Master Taoist and founder of his own superior lineage of Taoism on the basis only of wearing a silly hat of his own design, and then subsequently sells more of those hats to his followers for high prices. In that case I see no problem in calling that a farce. This example was willingly extreme, and there may very well be lots of doubtful cases in between complete nonsense and legit form of religious, philosophical or esoteric Taoism. I only wanted to make sure that such complete nonsense as the given example in my opinion should not in any way be called valid.

Edited June 22, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

I accept that example. Just be aware that "philosophical" Taoism might be complete nonsense to a Taoist who is seeking immortality, and vice versa.

[silent thunder]

kind heart

quiet heart

sincere heart

 

cultivate, nurture stillness (in motion and restingness)

cultivate emptiness... natural action arises effortlessly from empty stillness and returns

cultivate silence... thought arises from and returns in silence

 

awareness unfolding in presence

 

harmonize inner and outer

synthesize outer with inner

as above, so below... as within, without

 

unfolding boundless presence

embody non forcingness of intention (thought), action and speech

silence emptiness clarity bouyancy 

simultaneous expansion contraction

choiceless natural response to stimuli

 

kind heart

quiet heart

sincere heart

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

51 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

cultivate emptiness... natural action arises effortlessly from empty stillness and returns

cultivate silence... thought arises from and returns in silence

 

Awesome! Well said.

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I accept that example. Just be aware that "philosophical" Taoism might be complete nonsense to a Taoist who is seeking immortality, and vice versa.

 

A Taoist seeking immortality might indeed wish to ignore or belittle other forms of Taoism as unwanted for distractions from the supreme purpose of reaching immortality. A philosophical Taoist on the other hand might wish to remove all supernatural aspects of Taoism so as to arrive at a common sense view of life that doesn't need any form of belief.

 

My own opinion on this is that philosophical Taoists who take the Chuang tzu seriously must try to be able to understand all legit forms of Taoism by viewing things from the particular perspectives of those forms of Taoism. One must be able to actually play with ones perspective on things to reach the freedom of mind that the Chuang tzu recommends. The practical use of this is a greatly expanded  spectrum of possible forms of engaging with the world as compared to getting stuck in one sectarian perspective only.

Edited June 22, 2018 by wandelaar

[Mig]

Why someone should be obsessed to know what a Daoist is? Most everybody gave their definition, some gave arguments on how to label or show what a Daoist is. Is there someone here who has been immersed in both cultures, speak and read both languages Chinese and their own mother tongue to understand Daoism? I guess if in the academia world you could argue about the definition, the hermeneutics of each text in Daoism so we could have a definition. My take on those who cultivate the Dao are those who live the being experience and learn about non being to conduct themselves in every day life. Of course there is more to elaborate on that.

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Mig said:

Why someone should be obsessed to know what a Daoist is?

 

Being obsessed about it would go against Taoism (at least for someone beyond the early stages of exploration). But simply asking the question as Lost in Translation did and discussing possible answers might be a way to learn more about what it means to be a Taoist.

[Rara]

On 22/06/2018 at 12:27 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Taoist do all things...in moderation

 

They live between heaven and earth. their success is due to their failures. Doing is applying the principles that bring peace and harmony into their lives. knowing is doing and doing is knowing.

 

They walk the earth but have not left their true home. They are active and still,

 

The only way to know what a Taoist does is by their silly hats if we examine the hat closely and watch how it follows the head. then is the Tao following the hat or is the hat following Tao. 

 

Hi Wu Ming Jen.

 

Other than the hats that define the taoist monk, people from other religions may still posess the qualities that you have described. May someone still be a Taoist if they still consciously follow another major world religion?

 

I would say no, but only because of one core principle: the god concept / having a creator (I believe Buddhism is one exception to this, but they still have a "prophet", of sorts)

 

Whether or not religious taoists have gods/immortals, the Tao Te Ching mentions nothing of creation nor rules to follow in order to go to heaven (or reach nirvana)

[Wu Ming Jen]

Hi Rara,

We never left the nameless heaven we just happen to have a body.  Are ancestors are alive in our hearts even if we can not see them with our eyes open, we are all a big family.

 

Lao tzu is the religious philosophical basis and these two parts are not divided from the whole, that is just humans looking at a sliver of their reality, no worries.

[silent thunder]

daoist, christian, buddhist, atheist, anarchist, republican, democrat...  which of these are separate from source?

which are furthest from the center of things?

which are not the bell ringing?

 

form unfolds in presence

silence rolls with thunder

clarity and occlusion cannot convey it, nor hide it

 

source, unnamable, ephemeral and inexaustible

ever unfolding in forms from formless

 

such treasure!

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

May someone still be a Taoist if they still consciously follow another major world religion?

 

Ah! This is the crux of the matter! Is Daoism a way of being or is it a way of believing?

 

Being vs believing: which is it? This is a very important question.

[wandelaar]

That will again depend on the type of Taoism. I don't think a philosophical Taoist needs believing in any religious sense.

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

Ah! This is the crux of the matter! Is Daoism a way of being or is it a way of believing?

 

Being vs believing: which is it? This is a very important question.

 

Here's what Chad Hansen has to say about it:

 

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[Mig]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Being obsessed about it would go against Taoism (at least for someone beyond the early stages of exploration). But simply asking the question as Lost in Translation did and discussing possible answers might be a way to learn more about what it means to be a Taoist.

 

Maybe obsessed is not the right word, maybe persistent in defining what cannot be defined. I guess if we have our western magnifying lenses the necessity to know what a Daoist is becomes important but I doubt that is the case in the Chinese who either believes in Daoism religion/philosophy or practice what they know about the DDJ/ZZ. I guess Chinese scholars have a different take or definition what a Daoist is.

 

[Limahong]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:22 PM, Starjumper said:

Maybe some people call themselves real Taoists on Taoist forums in order to trick others into thinking they value the claim to a label and corresponding status above the experience itself.

 

Hi Steve,

 

When the "real" trick others - they are fake?

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

When the "real" trick others - they are fake?

 

No they're still real, just tricky.  Real tricky?  Like Lao hisself says:  "The sage wears his jewel behind rough clothing."  "Pretty words are for weenies."  and "The villagers are confused as hell as to what he's really all about.", and I aim to keep it that way.

[Marblehead]

I think you might have misquoted Lao Tzu but yeah, the message is there.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 22.6.2018 at 4:23 PM, Starjumper said:

 

This type of division is mainly a Western Academic invention, because Western academics need to divide things into widdle pieces in order to better analyze them with their widdle minds.  They have difficulty seeing the big picture.  A good description that I have seen is that Taoism is like a big river which contains different streams that sometimes diverge and then later return and intermingle.

 

"It goes far away, and then returns, because it is powerful"  TTC

 

I like that metaphor.

 

I agree, and strongly implied in my post, that this categorisation draws dividing lines where, in truth, there are none.