Video 2: Trigrams

[Harmen]

I hate my accent and my pronunciation is terrible but that does not keep me from making videos 

 

 

[Apech]

Very nice video - and don't worry about your accent

 

I have read in several places (but I would have to look up references if you want them) that the hexagrams came first (presumably from the method of the yarrow stalks) and the trigrams came later as a method of interpretation or perhaps to fit with the metaphysics of the number and symbol (?) interpretation.  But you seem to be saying that the trigrams were the original basis.  Is that right?

[Harmen]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

Very nice video - and don't worry about your accent

 

I have read in several places (but I would have to look up references if you want them) that the hexagrams came first (presumably from the method of the yarrow stalks) and the trigrams came later as a method of interpretation or perhaps to fit with the metaphysics of the number and symbol (?) interpretation.  But you seem to be saying that the trigrams were the original basis.  Is that right?

 

Yes. I know of two authors who postulated that the hexagrams came first and the trigrams later: Steve Moore in The Trigrams of Han and Cyrille Javary in ... I don't know because I don't read French but this is what I remember from a conversation with someone who had read Javary's books. They both suggested that the trigrams were 'invented'  during the Han dynasty. But the archaeological excavations show us that the trigrams were already in use before the Han dynasty. These example also show us that hexagrams were (almost) always divided in trigrams, which shows that they did not really come after the hexagrams. This is the subject of my first video, in case you haven't seen it 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Harmen said:

 

Yes. I know of two authors who postulated that the hexagrams came first and the trigrams later: Steve Moore in The Trigrams of Han and Cyrille Javary in ... I don't know because I don't read French but this is what I remember from a conversation with someone who had read Javary's books. They both suggested that the trigrams were 'invented'  during the Han dynasty. But the archaeological excavations show us that the trigrams were already in use before the Han dynasty. These example also show us that hexagrams were (almost) always divided in trigrams, which shows that they did not really come after the hexagrams. This is the subject of my first video, in case you haven't seen it 

 

 

Sorry I have seen your first video - but it has been a while - I'll try to watch again.

[OldDog]

Very good video. Thank you.

 

I only recently discovered the examples of the Yijing consultations in the Zuo Zhuan. I immediately thought of your approach to interpretation through trigrams. After viewing you video, several things come to mind. 

 

One of the key ideas I gained through the Zuo Zhuan examples is to look at changing lines as working through the trigrams; ie, one trigram transforming into another. I think this is very important. I believe you touched on this in the video when you discussed the forward/backward relationship of trigrams needing to be considered together. I would like to hear you elaborate on this, perhaps in some future video.

 

Also, I would like to hear your views on the significance of internal or nuclear trigrams. What is their proper role in interpretation ... or should they be considered at all?

 

I think there may be a tendency to view your focus on trigrams as an alternative to considering the resultant hexagram as a whole in an interpretation. I don't believe this is what you intended. It seems to me that looking at the composition of an initial hexagram through the lens of the trigrams - upper/lower but also nuclear - should then be brought together (confirmed?) In the resulting hexagram as a whole. If this is the case, perhaps this could be demonstrated in future videos where you walk through the analysis of a particular consultation.

 

Great series. I look forward to future videos. 

[Harmen]

29 minutes ago, OldDog said:

Very good video. Thank you.

 

One of the key ideas I gained through the Zuo Zhuan examples is to look at changing lines as working through the trigrams; ie, one trigram transforming into another. I think this is very important. I believe you touched on this in the video when you discussed the forward/backward relationship of trigrams needing to be considered together. I would like to hear you elaborate on this, perhaps in some future video. 

 

Yes, this is definitely something I will touch upon in a future video, actually I am considering to make it the subject of the next video. I have developed my own way of dealing with moving lines & trigrams though, a way that does not entirely correspond to 'the old way' but is more an expansion of it. To me moving lines make a trigram unbalanced, it will show itself in a more exaggerated  way. Earth that is unbalanced will become passive, submissive, meek; Thunder unbalanced will become aggressive and not consider consequences, etc. To restore the imbalance you need the trigram that it changes into: Thunder with the first line moving needs Earth to regain balance, Mountain with the 2nd and 3rd line moving needs Water etc. Every combination of moving lines in a trigrams results in a different trigram that is needed to regain the balance. I am fully aware that this is not how the early diviners did it but at least it let's the changing and changed trigrams cooperate - just as we see in the Zuozhuan examples.

 

Quote

Also, I would like to hear your views on the significance of internal or nuclear trigrams. What is their proper role in interpretation ... or should they be considered at all?

 

I see nuclear trigrams as a secondary layer that can be used when more information is required. But I always consider them in relation to the baoti 包體, the trigram that 'envelops' the nuclear trigram (of 2, 3 and 4 are the lower nt then 1, 5 and 6 make the baoti). This gives you information what aspect in your situation is blocked. For instance, nt Lake might be blocked by baoti Heaven - this might indicate something like "you have trouble enjoying life because thoughts, ratio and yang in general are blocking your feelings of happiness." I think nuclear trigrams are a much later development but that does not mean I discard them. I find them quite useful in certain contexts. If I have trouble starting something new and I consult the Yi which gives me a hexagram with trigram Thunder ('a new beginning') as a nt then it becomes especially useful to see how it is blocked.

 

Quote

I think there may be a tendency to view your focus on trigrams as an alternative to considering the resultant hexagram as a whole in an interpretation. I don't believe this is what you intended. It seems to me that looking at the composition of an initial hexagram through the lens of the trigrams - upper/lower but also nuclear - should then be brought together (confirmed?) In the resulting hexagram as a whole. If this is the case, perhaps this could be demonstrated in future videos where you walk through the analysis of a particular consultation.

 

 

When I look at the oldest examples I don't see much references to the resulting hexagram as a whole, I mainly see references to its trigrams. That doesn't mean that the second hexagram was not given meaning, but I don't think this meaning was considered equal important as the initial hexagram. In my own readings I hardly look at the second hexagram. This makes the reading easier because often the two hexagrams give mixed messages and by focusing on the initial hexagram I don't need to be bothered by that.  

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Harmen said:

....

 

When I look at the oldest examples I don't see much references to the resulting hexagram as a whole, I mainly see references to its trigrams. That doesn't mean that the second hexagram was not given meaning, but I don't think this meaning was considered equal important as the initial hexagram. In my own readings I hardly look at the second hexagram. This makes the reading easier because often the two hexagrams give mixed messages and by focusing on the initial hexagram I don't need to be bothered by that.  

 

 

Wang Bi in his Zhouyi lueli seems to see the hexagram as a whole which sums the Yijing's response to the question.  So the sources which you call 'the oldest examples' pre-date him presumably - is that right?

 

 

[Harmen]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Wang Bi in his Zhouyi lueli seems to see the hexagram as a whole which sums the Yijing's response to the question.  So the sources which you call 'the oldest examples' pre-date him presumably - is that right?

 

 

 

Yes  Another interesting aspect of Wang Bi's book is that in his introduction (or appendix, depending on which format you have), in the 明爻通變 chapter, he does not talk about 'changing lines that change to make a new hexagram'. He only talks about change within a hexagram. It seems as if the concept of H1 --> H2 originated quite late in Yi history.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Harmen said:

 

Yes  Another interesting aspect of Wang Bi's book is that in his introduction (or appendix, depending on which format you have), in the 明爻通變 chapter, he does not talk about 'changing lines that change to make a new hexagram'. He only talks about change within a hexagram. It seems as if the concept of H1 --> H2 originated quite late in Yi history.

 

I have Richard John Lynn's The Classic of Changes which I have 'studied' a little - I don't read Chinese so I rely on English translations completely.  As to H1 - H2 interpretation I have been influenced by Stephen Karcher who regards the H2 as speaking about the subject and H1 as the situation/environment.  But when I consult the Yijing I use the Judgement to give an image as to what is being said and the yaoci to indicate the specific phase of that process.  Once I have an idea of what is indicated I just relate it back to the question in quite a 'free' or perhaps 'intuitive' way get my answer.

 

Wang Bi seems to focus on the way in which the lines relate and resonate, support or weaken each other within the context of the Hex as a whole.

 

I mostly use the Yijing for myself (occasionally friends and family) and have had good results - I use it periodically and sometimes do a kind of diagnostic exercise which comprises a series of follow-on questions and so generates a sequence of hexagrams.  I've found this most helpful especially for questions about life or spiritual direction as it seems to hold up a mirror to my mind and takes me to places I would not get to by just contemplation alone.

 

 

[OldDog]

14 hours ago, Harmen said:

To me moving lines make a trigram unbalanced, it will show itself in a more exaggerated  way. Earth that is unbalanced will become passive, submissive, meek; Thunder unbalanced will become aggressive and not consider consequences, etc. To restore the imbalance you need the trigram that it changes into:

 

Interesting idea. But in the example of Thunder you indicate aggression seemingly regardless of what it changes into.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to say instability in anticipation of impending change? And, if so, in the case of thunder, would agression always be the reaction?  Wouldn't the influence of the transformed trigram begin to express itself? Or, is there a tendency to resist the change and in Thunder's case it expresses as aggression?

 

Please excuse me. It is your method. You have no doubt given this more consideration than I have in my off hand remarks. Just curious. Sometimes, a new idea triggers a cascade of questions.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by OldDog
Typo

[Lost in Translation]

Another excellent video! I am enjoying your series greatly. You explain much clearer than Wilhelm. Thank you!

[Harmen]

2 hours ago, OldDog said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to say instability in anticipation of impending change? And, if so, in the case of thunder, would agression always be the reaction?  Wouldn't the influence of the transformed trigram begin to express itself? Or, is there a tendency to resist the change and in Thunder's case it expresses as aggression?

 

These are good suggestions that can work very well in personal readings, so I'd say if you find the idea of changing trigrams interesting you can try to find out what this change means to you - you don't have to assign one principle to it. It can be very valuable to explore your own view of the trigrams and their changes, and I think this is more important than how I use it. 

 

The old commentaries  speak of 'movement' (dong 動) and that movement leads to 'change' (bian 變). Before the change there is movement. If we apply this to changing trigrams it means that something is affecting the trigram which leads its change. But as said, in the application of this the two trigrams were seen as a unity and not simply as 'one trigram changing into another'. 

 

No doubt there are several ways to apply all this, and investigating these can be very rewarding.

[OldDog]

4 hours ago, Harmen said:

The old commentaries  speak of 'movement' (dong 動) and that movement leads to 'change' (bian 變). Before the change there is movement. If we apply this to changing trigrams it means that something is affecting the trigram which leads its change. But as said, in the application of this the two trigrams were seen as a unity and not simply as 'one trigram changing into another'. 

 

I see. This is very helpful in understanding the significance of moving lines. Can you point to older commentaries where the relationship of dong and bian are discussed? I would like to explore this idea further.

[Harmen]

On 23-6-2018 at 2:41 PM, OldDog said:

 

I see. This is very helpful in understanding the significance of moving lines. Can you point to older commentaries where the relationship of dong and bian are discussed? I would like to explore this idea further.

 

The Dazhuan might be a good start I think. For know I can't think of another title. Let me get back on that.

[OldDog]

On 6/23/2018 at 2:56 AM, Harmen said:

The old commentaries  speak of 'movement' (dong 動) and that movement leads to 'change' (bian 變). Before the change there is movement. If we apply this to changing trigrams it means that something is affecting the trigram which leads its change

 

I am going back to read the Dazhuan. It has been awhile since I have visited that text. Your comment on dong and bian has struck a chord with me.

 

As far as something affecting the trigram that leads to change, thats a questions worth exploring. Other than the notion that moving lines change, I am not sure I have heard any deeper discussion on that. Its usually stated as a matter of fact. But the question of what's affecting seems to go to another level.

 

My natural inclination would be to think that there is something going on within the line. The only thing I can think of is that it might have to do with the nature of yang and yin coupled with the notion of reversion. Something along the lines of yang tending to expend itself and giving way to yin. For yin's part, in its tendency to recieve and nurture it draws in yang. But then you would have to answer the question of movement. Such thinking may be a trap caused by human (western, anyway) predilection for cause and effect. It is often said that constant movement is the nature of dao. If that be the case then we need not look for a cause of movement as it is self-so.

 

I am sort of freewheeling here. These are the questions I have in mind as I continue to explore the Dazhuan and other sources.