What else is there to do, after being able to meditate on emptiness?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Lerner jokes but hitting the head is good, but be sure not to leave the power there. Bounce off the strike and be sure the magpie bridge is supported by your teeth, for obvious reasons. Gentle and assertive strikes about three cun above your eyebrow line is a good place, you’ll feel it when you find it. Use a drummers roll technique for inspiration. Do ten to thirty reps on the exhale, rest a cycle or three, start again.

It really clears the head.

 

What else is there to do? Idk, when the work is done Lao Tzu says to retire and leave it be.

 

Breathwork like Lerner said is good stuff too, quiet everything down, listen to the faintest. When the outer is still the inner moves about a lot. So for that balance you want to be almost perfectly still, without overdoing it. So you’ll experience inner motion but not cranked up to 11.

 

Other general tips: have a cold nice beverage, relax and never worry. Loss of control is only a problem if you cling to the loss.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

mind, i don't mean anything literal, i'm just talking in the context of consciousness. i don't mean the physical universe, i don't know anything about that stuff, i don't even know if such things exist, i just know that my perception of it exists

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

Remember...?

 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:11 AM, dawei said:

Remember the DDJ1: The Dao that is spoken is not the Eternal Dao

 

So no words - remember.

 

- LimA

[Bud Jetsun]

Emptiness is the nature of the whole of reality including unlimited unfathomable realms as well as the whole of your spirits experiential journey. 

 

The emptiness is the void from which the One becomes the illusion of 2 and gives rise to the appearance of '10,000 things.'

 

If you're achieving it, you don't have to ask another question. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited July 1, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[Wayfarer]

To the OP:

 

A couple of points.  Emptiness is not really a Taoist concept it is a Buddhist one.  It may just be translated in that way, but for Taoism it is no-thingness, which lacks nothing and is as full as it is empty, it neither one nor the other while being both - there are subtle differences between what Buddhists & Taoists mean here.  Whatever alchemical practice you do, you won't gain anything because what you are attempting to gain is what you already are.

 

If we stick with emptiness for now... whatever you are looking at is what you are calling empty.  Why do you not know that, I mean KNOW it, is simply out of a lack of experience, or a belief of what you are is different than what you consider to not be you.

 

All the fancy alchemical terminology referred to in centuries of text is a little back-to-front.  It is a little like writing down how to drive a car, or how to balance on a bike; you are attempting to break up something that is experienced systemically.  Not always, but often, people who sit quietly in stillness i.e. when there is no thought, it can be that there is a sense of something settling down into the base of your belly.  If we look at the opposite and say when you stressed or angry there is a sense of something rising up your chest and into your throat - well this is the opposite.

 

You can talk about dragons copulating with tigers, and red chambers, and magpie bridges, but they are mostly a distraction; a distraction from the wandering mind, so that the settling occurs.  If you think, I will imagine my energy traveling up the spine, to the heavenly pillow, towards my celestial eye blah blah - it is really baloney - yet in the same way that it is right to describe the balancing of a bike... you sit on it and pedal... it is not totally true to say that all this stuff about dragons and tigers is false.

 

It depends whether you want the difficult or the simple.

 

To me, Taoism is about undoing.  At its heart is simplicity, aimlessness and stillness.  If you sit in meditation and your mind wanders around thinking about shopping, then you have a busy mind.  If you focus it on your breath, or creating alchemy - you have a busy mind.

 

Where there is no thought, there is no emptiness nor lack of emptiness.  There is not a thought about it.  There is not a thought about what to do, or what to do next - there is simply vacancy and consequently spontaneity.

 

In a classical sense, the more still you become, the more like the Source you become.  It appears a complicated matter that the Source is also all the things you are trying hard not to become.  So, whatever you do, you are the Source, and whatever you don't do, you are still the Source.

 

So the answer to your original question is - nothing.  Nothing you do matters.  So do nothing.  Then you may find it.

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

So the answer to your original question is - nothing.  Nothing you do matters.  So do nothing.  Then you may find it.

 

Hi Wayfarer,

 

So do nothing - wu-wei?

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

On 6/23/2018 at 9:20 PM, Marblehead said:

After attaining empty-mindedness the only thing left to do is get up and live to the fullest extent of your capabilities and capacities.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Wei wu wei?

 

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

Wei wu wei?

Sure, we can call it this.  Chop wood, carry water, and all the other things we are inspired to do.

 

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Chop wood, carry water, and all the other things we are inspired to do.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Hard life - chopping wood and carrying water...?

 

 

Magnified...

 

 

Cheers!

 

- LimA

[Wayfarer]

6 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Wayfarer,

 

So do nothing - wu-wei?

 

- LimA

 

No, I didn't mean Wu Wei.  I mean not to make your meditation a "doing".  Think of it more like, if you do nothing but sit there and drink a tea you're not thinking about whether you are doing it properly, you're just taking a drink when you want it.  There's no mind that has a concept of how you should or should not drink tea.  There's is nothing benchmarking how successful you are/were at drinking tea.

 

So, be the same; sit quietly without the tea (or with it!).  If you meditate with a special cushion, in a special room, before a special altar then how is this sitting and forgetting; zuowang?  

 

The part about alchemy and the stillness is that the presence of THAT WHICH IS STILL is there whether you are calm or not and to meditate is to feel that presence, to drink from it whether sitting or standing.  It is like a cup within the body that fills up the more tranquil we are - this is the alchemy - this is turning the body into an immortal.  It is the cauldron.  It is the Holy Grail Jesus drank from - it is drinking of the presence of God or Dao i.e. endless stillness.  It is to realise that you are also THAT, and therefore unable to die.  It is a realisation - nothing has changed other than the fact you noticed.

 

But if you sit there seeking stillness, it becomes a doing. It becomes a searching.

 

You have to sit without a "need" to.  In the same way you just sit and drink your tea.  In the same way you drive your car and let the body just do what it needs to without a conscious thought of it.

 

It is a little like the process of hypnosis where the conscious cognitive part of the mind is put to sleep to access the deeper subconscious.  Putting your thinking mind to sleep - what remains?  

 

Wu Wei is something else,  but is about the same thing

 

 

[Wayfarer]

4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Hard life - chopping wood and carrying water...?

 

 

Magnified...

 

 

Cheers!

 

- LimA

 

Apart from there is no "I" actually doing it

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

Wu Wei is something else,  but is about the same thing

 

Hi Wayfarer,

 

Who knows what exactly is Wu Wei? I will be the last to tell you in words. But I like to borrow these words from Wuschel -

 

16 hours ago, Wuschel said:

mind, i don't mean anything literal, i'm just talking in the context of consciousness. i don't mean the physical universe, i don't know anything about that stuff, i don't even know if such things exist, i just know that my perception of it exists 

 

I don't want/need to know what exactly is Wu Wei. But when it comes to the state of being in Wu Wei - "i just know that my perception of it exists" with feelings. It may change from 'time to time' but 'time and again' it is "about the same thing".

 

My perception of Wu Wei may change subtly in relation to impermanent time and space. I associate Wu Wei with the 'moment'. My every moment is never the same with past/future moments.

 

I like your post - you have come across as experientially 'real' to me ~ human(e).

 

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

Apart from there is no "I" actually doing it

 

As for "I" - I have it overcome to a good extent when I consider myself a 'nobody'.

 

I am still learning...

 

- LimA

Edited July 2, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Marblehead]

16 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

wu wei, to me, means emptiness in action

Emptiness in contrived action.

 

Oh, the universe exists.  Trust me.

 

And you inspired a thought:  wu wei needs no words, contrived actions require words.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

What else is there to do, after being able to meditate on emptiness?

 

Living in fullness. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Practitioner: Buddhist meditation seeks to intentionally ‘empty' (空) the body of sublunary desires to end their suffering.

 

Daoist meditation should be 'void’ (无) where you are not purposefully ridding your mind of thoughts and where you are not purposefully filling your mind of thoughts. Only that when during meditation, let the thoughts come and go as they please. You do not interfere with the natural order of how things are. For example, a tree grows naturally on the side of the road. An action of Void (无), or WuWei, would be to allow the tree to grow. 

 

The Master: Emptiness (空) is Nothing. Void (无) is Everything  and Nothing. One can only speak of the Void, when one knows that there is something- a sort of reference. Thus, Void (无) is Everything. “Not Nothing has Everything (无无生有)” literally means that. From Nothing, there is something. 

 

Emptiness that is empty is not true emptiness

[Limahong]

33 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Emptiness in contrived action. Oh, the universe exists.  Trust me. And you inspired a thought:  wu wei needs no words, contrived actions require words.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Thank you for the elaboration/explanation.

 

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

i like words because they help to remember

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

With words you are limiting yourself - "wu wei needs no words".

 

Why am i orange? My color allocation was random.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

37 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Emptiness that is empty is not true emptiness

 

Hi Wu Ming Jen,

 

Emptiness in an English word for communication - not 空 per se in the TTJ?

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

14 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

that which they are pointing at

 

Hi Wuschel,

 

What are you yourself pointing at?

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

54 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

how do you know?

i know my perceptions of what i label universe exist, but that's not the universe. it's my own mind creating perceptions

Well, I look up into the sky during the daytime and see the sun (if not clouded over) an sometimes the moon.  At nighttime I look up into the sky and oftentimes see the moon.  This is consistent with all scientific observations.  7.5 billion people can't all be wrong.

 

And when I sit down on my chair it always supports me and keeps my ass off the floor.  And even the floor is real.  Try sitting on a chair that isn't there and see how much your ass hurts after hitting the floor. 

 

 

Actually, I can't even determine why I said "emptiness is contrived action."   Right now it doesn't seem logical in my mind.

 

Wu wei is more properly defined as action without intent or maybe action that assists what would over time naturally happen anyway. 

54 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

do you mean

a) emptiness using the human mind

b ) emptiness can't act

?

 

Speaking to this I must state "emptiness of intent" not just emptiness.  True, emptiness does not act.  The way I understand emptiness is the state when I am in a meditative state and no thoughts are arising - empty-minded.

 

But it doesn't mean that emptiness is equal to nothingness.  Everything still exists in emptiness.  Nothingness is undefined.  It cannot be defined.

 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

only if i believe them. i use them as spells. to connect me to that which they are pointing at

Words are mental symbols of reality.  We can think the word "elephant" and we imagine an animal we call an elephant.  But we cannot put an elephant in our mind.  The elephant is far too big and our brain is far too small.

 

[joeblast]

On 6/30/2018 at 10:45 PM, Phoenix3 said:

 After all, the vagus nerve doesn’t enter the tongue or palate area.

It may not quite "enter," but keep in mind that the cranial nerves are a network (and part of a larger network,) so of course some things affect others - indirectly.

 

On 7/1/2018 at 3:19 AM, Wuschel said:

 

maybe i got your definitions wrong, but i want to stress again that the buddhist term emptiness doesn't refer to non-thinking. non-thinking, just like thinking, is just another part of creation. like the space between objects, it's not beyond objects

 

There's the concept of this (the finger)

there's doing it (pointing)

there's "achieving" it (moon)

 

But some people misinterpret and think its as easy as turning one's hands over - it is, once the work's been done....but in this case, "emptiness/stillness" manifests as a mind free of randomly popping off thoughts, and the ability to prevent random thoughts from happening in meditation, because of....

-"one's focus of awareness"

+

-the conditioning of the nerves

 

 

22 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

OK, I'll take your word for it.  I have no idea what emptiness refers to and as far as I'm concerned it's only religious word games and doesn't exist  ... unless someone can explain it in plain English, saying what it is rather than what it is not.

I define it at the stillest of still phenomena/events that have happened in my practices, and I only got there because I just focused on learning how to do breathwork and dantien breathing for the first few years of my practice....before realizing the candy-shoppe universe of spiritual practices out there 

 

It goes like this:

 

Normal sensate experience can be considered as "yang" conditions for the Cranial Nerves.

 

By depriving the Olfactory nerve of its 40 cycles/sec Yang it is used to...

...one must necessarily do a measure of calming the other sense nerves down also.

 

To deprive the olfactory nerve of its yang state, one must use the gut mechanisms to facilitate the movement of air through the body's airways, and NOT use the airways or the sinuses to move air.

 

Once the Cranial Nerve system's dynamic is brought to a sufficiently calm level as a matter of daily process - whereby one exists in this superlatively efficient state for a couple hours every day, only then can one really consider the still mind of meditation really being brought forth into daily life.  One does not "remove the energy" from the nerve-systems, as "turning the volume down" would perhaps indicate, what actually happens is the nerves shift from their normal sensate-rich Yang state to a passive, highly efficient energy conserving Yin state.  Interestingly, there is high correlation between periods of extreme neural firing intensity and periods of extremely low firing intensity - that of time dilation.  That's why once a meditator is able to transform the resonant mode of his sense nerves into their Yin state, "all" is the "present" and the session feels like one long moment.  At those deep yin states, my breaths were very very long and I couldnt tell the difference between having sat for 20 minutes vs two hours, they'd both feel like I just sat for a little while.

 

The breath mechanics, executed in an attentive fashion, sees the habit energy burn itself into the medulla's default instruction-set program for the breath, ergo it carries forth very solidly when one isnt paying attention to it, or one is sleeping.  Especially important for when seated in meditation when all that's left to work on is maintaining the focus of awareness.

 

In meditation, having brought the breath below the threshold or turbulence whereby the nerves can detect the air's movement - one gets disconnected from the act of "breathing," and the quiescence that accompanies a short duration breath hold can now be experienced in a sustainable, ongoing fashion, for as long as the practitioner can sustain the awareness.  It is an interesting point to note that focus of awareness, because once established, its easy to disturb, but the more it is stabilized, the more one is able to notice what happens when that dynamic of attentive stillness is perturbed.  It literally feels like an energetic bubble forms on the side of the pineal, like a balloon having been squeezed - and once that energetic resonance interacts with the hypothalamus, off it goes and there's a neurological chain that cascades as the thoughtform-energy-bubble detaches and rises off like a bubble of carbonation in a beverage.  With a little more training, those bubbles dont pop out very far before they can be reabsorbed.  With excellent training, the energey resonance at the niwan is firm and stable enough that the focus of awareness is easily maintained, and those little stirrings dont even perturb the "outside walls" of that energy-structure.

 

That's stillness/emptiness from the neurological level on up, as I learned it....or discovered it, or whatever

[Michael Sternbach]

14 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Sure, we can call it this.  Chop wood, carry water, and all the other things we are inspired to do.

 

 

It's Zen's fault that our forests are getting destroyed.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

everything you mention are perceptions

ass hurting(physical), sun & moon(visual), reading scientific papers(visual/mental) speaking to people to confirm observations(accoustic/mental) "7.5billion people can't all be wrong"/logical thoughts (mental)...

but those perceptions are not the universe outside consciousness, they are the creation of consciousness

a dream

Wrong.  I know the difference between dreaming and conscious awareness.  Just because you are not aware of them does not mean they don't exist.  It only means that you are not aware of them.  Also, how can you have a perception if you don't have a functional brain?

 

3 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

we can think the word elephant and then look at the actual elephant

that's what i meant by words help me remember

Okay.  I have no problem with this.  We agree.

 

3 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

ok. my definition of emptiness is more extended. you write "nothingness is undefined". but since "thingness" is defined, or shaped, out of not-thingness, they are essentially the same. two states of the same substance. emptiness is that substance, whether undefined or defined

Hehehe.  But we don't agree here.  Describe nothingness for me please.  The absence of thingness?  But we already know that empty space is not really empty.  In order to have nothingness one must observe beyond the boundaries of the universe and that is impossible.  Empty of permanent existence?  Sure, I would agree with that.

 

3 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

i believe that substance to be alive. but that is just a belief, i don't know for sure yet. it just feels that way sometimes

This is a concept that many hold to be true.  I'm not one of them but my best response is that if it isn't alive and moving on its own then it is dead.  Rocks don't play jump rope.  But to say the Earth is alive - I can't even begin to argue against that.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The Practitioner: Buddhist meditation seeks to intentionally ‘empty' (空) the body of sublunary desires to end their suffering.

 

Does Buddhism, or do Asians, talk in terms of 'sublunary desires' too? I thought it's a purely Occidental concept.

 

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Daoist meditation should be 'void’ (无) where you are not purposefully ridding your mind of thoughts and where you are not purposefully filling your mind of thoughts. Only that when during meditation, let the thoughts come and go as they please.

 

That's how I was taught to sit in Zazen. And that's the practice of a Buddhist school (although influenced by Daoism).

 

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

You do not interfere with the natural order of how things are. For example, a tree grows naturally on the side of the road. An action of Void (无), or WuWei, would be to allow the tree to grow. 

 

The Master: Emptiness (空) is Nothing. Void (无) is Everything  and Nothing. One can only speak of the Void, when one knows that there is something- a sort of reference. Thus, Void (无) is Everything. “Not Nothing has Everything (无无生有)” literally means that. From Nothing, there is something. 

 

Emptiness that is empty is not true emptiness

 

[Starjumper]

I'm getting a better idea of what emptiness means, and there's some good comments here, but really, is it right to have a thread about Buddhist terminology in a Taoist forum?  Buddhism has it's own forum, over there -->

 

I'll consider that emptiness means something like stillness, since i'm a Taoist that likes to use plain English, and now I'll happily forget what emptiness means.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

5 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

you can't KNOW that what you perceive actually exists beyond the existence of the perception itself

 

Incorrect

 

5 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

you can just trust your senses, and hold the belief that something like senses exist in the first place.

 

No beliefs, we know we have senses.

 

5 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

.. not that i think they don't, but that's not the point...

 

Yes it is the point, this is the point where the zen master reaches out and pinches the heck out of your nose.

 

5 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

i'm not sure if i can get my point through, i'll give up for now 

 

Your point is incorrect.