Using wing chun principles with a knife or a baton?

[mewtwo]

I am wondering if I can get some input on some ways I can incorporate wing chun and a knife or a baton. I know there are weapons the baat cham dao and the luk dim boon kwan. But I do not carry those with me. Also they would be a hassle and they are both double handed weapons. I am only interested in single handed weapons. 

What I do carry with me is a knife with a 7 inch blade. Perfectly legal where I live. I also have a 2 foot baton. I do not carry the baton with me. But I can carry an expandable baton. So I am wondering if anyone has any advice on incorporating a single knife or a baton into wing chun?

Thanks

[Michael Sternbach]

My advice: Simply take those weapons that you want to practice with into your hand and do the moves of your martial art with them.

 

I was able even to optimize some of my (usually) empty-handed Kenpo moves by performing them with a club on my BOB. It became much more obvious how to get the most amount of power out of them that way.

 

As far as the knife is concerned, you should obviously be using a wood or rubber one for this kind of practice (no good cutting up your BOB).

 

Moreover, consider that for self-defence, the reverse grip is much more practical, because that way, in case of a serious threat, you can hold the knife with the blade down your forearm (cutting edge on the pinkie side) and obscured by it. Thus you would not be seen holding out your knife at the attacker, which is advisable both for legal as well as tactical reasons.

[Starjumper]

This video shows some knife stuff in the first half.  It's not exactly wing chun but it has it's similarities.  This is my fearless clan leader with a type of knife which he created:

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, mewtwo said:

I am wondering if I can get some input on some ways I can incorporate wing chun and a knife or a baton. I know there are weapons the baat cham dao and the luk dim boon kwan. But I do not carry those with me. Also they would be a hassle and they are both double handed weapons. I am only interested in single handed weapons. 

What I do carry with me is a knife with a 7 inch blade. Perfectly legal where I live. I also have a 2 foot baton. I do not carry the baton with me. But I can carry an expandable baton. So I am wondering if anyone has any advice on incorporating a single knife or a baton into wing chun?

Thanks

 

Until recently I was focusing on teaching that  - not with wing chun , but in the system I practice  ( 'Okinawan Crane' ) .  I would take a sequence from a pattern or kata, and  disassemble it, look at basic principles and movement and then try it out ( with whatever adaptions needed)  with the various weapons we practice with . This  also helps develop an understanding of those movements, gives you a range of distance variation and other things.

 

For example ... a typical  move (inside)  ;  

1 - attacks with a  R fist strike

2 -  'slips' (evades ) to inside , right  hand deflects 1's strike ( as it moves across to deflect the left hand comes up as well , to make 'folded {or crossed} bird's wings' . Wings open ,  uncross arms / hands , left  hand moves to control 1's right and 2's right hand strikes.

 

With a knife, the first part -the right hand 'deflection' -  would be done with the knife blade against 2's wrist  , and the 'open wings' part is a slash across the wrist as the knife moves back to strike 1 (or goes down, up, down, as it travels up his arm )  .  With a stick, you just smash their wrist.

 

This is very similar to many kali , arnis,  escrima , ,etc . moves  .

 

A similar move with a boken is to cut down on the back of the others blade as they strike  ( ... oh  yeah  .. and  while you evade     )

, and whip your blade back into their face .  

 

Both versions of the above can be done with a  kama .  It gets a little trickier with sai .  But the advantage of training with these weapons is the grip changing ;  the grip that Michael mentioned above  (  'handy'  - see below )   and others .  This can be used with other grips  and can be swapped and changed as needed  - I have found it adapts well for machete .

 

Also with the reverse grip, as well as a concealment , with a longer blade it can be used as a forearm guard .   Just dont try to swap grips, look fancy, show off, etc  during a clash

 

As Michael said , just keep practising, examine you moves and reapply,. It helps to have a training partner . . .  and one that will take advantage of your mistakes , so you learn quicker   

 

The Dan Inasanto book (old one )  Philippine Martial Arts  has a lot of this in it  - he explains how techniques translate to each weapon and gives some examples. he also notes that the was a large knife section in that book but 'authorities' asked him to take it out , so he did . But he notes that, with a little insight and training one can work out all the knife stuff from the empty hand stuff and other weapons practice .

Edited June 25, 2018 by Nungali

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

My advice: Simply take those weapons that you want to practice with into your hand and do the moves of your martial art with them.

 

I was able even to optimize some of my (usually) empty-handed Kenpo moves by performing them with a club on my BOB. It became much more obvious how to get the most amount of power out of them that way.

 

As far as the knife is concerned, you should obviously be using a wood or rubber one for this kind of practice (no good cutting up your BOB).

 

Moreover, consider that for self-defence, the reverse grip is much more practical, because that way, in case of a serious threat, you can hold the knife with the blade down your forearm (cutting edge on the pinkie side) and obscured by it. Thus you would not be seen holding out your knife at the attacker, which is advisable both for legal as well as tactical reasons.

 

I like using the reverse grip when someone tries to stop the (wooden) knife with some dodgy karate type 'block' .  Especially the 'upper block ' . 

 

Instructor tried to 'teach us' some knife defence ;  a downward overhand strike , is countered by an  'upper block' and the other hand reaches up to grab the attacks knife wrist  .......   

 

With reverse grip, as soon as the block is attempted I just pull my arm back, slashing and / or trapping, ' he 'blocking' arm .  The blade  can also be used to 'grab', hook  or  something with  the blade's  back and hold it against your fore arm , giving applications like a 'short  kama ' . 

 

And a good grip for swift slashing 'figure 8 attack '   - see Dan  at   0:35 ,   0:57,  1:07,     

 

 

[Nungali]

Oooo !  Look what popped up at the end of that vid   ... haven't seen that before !    

 

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Nungali

[Jonesboy]

It is really hard to learn real knife fighting skills from videos. Many systems hide their true teachings.

 

Also, in thing to keep in mind is some styles are stick where others are blade focused.

 

Dan Inosanto’s system Has really picked up more and more of balintawak which is a very close in system. It is also stick focused.

 

I think it may be a system you will like with your background.

 

 

If you are looking for a more blade based system look at a sld multi system that uses a 3 ranges.

 

 

 

looking at the videos you can clearly see the differences in styles.

[Rara]

I'm not into weapons so much but the ones you're talking about should be taught after you obtain your black sash. I didn't get there myself, but I know a few people that did.

 

Otherwise the pole form should apply to weapons which are "extensions of the arm", like batons or knives. Use the principles you apply to both hands and transfer them onto one.

[Michael Sternbach]

Kenpo Karate moves can be done empty-handed, with a club, as well as with a knife.

 

Similarly, the techniques of Okinawan Kobudo (a martial art that employs a number of different weapons) are often just slight variations of empty-handed (i.e. Karate) movements. - As Nungali's post already indicated.

 

Filipino arts are unique in that training generally starts with armed techniques, and only after a certain degree of mastery has been achieved, application of the same moves and maneuvres without weapons is being taught.

 

All these styles are examples of using virtually the same techniques with various weapons as well as without weapons. Slight adjustments according to the particular characteristics of the weapon being employed, distance, etc. are the only adaptations that are required.

 

That way, you have fighting methods readily available based on what you already know, as opposed to having to learn a new system for each weapon.

 

The samurai figured this out too, BTW. If you ever wondered what's the historical background to Aikido techniques being done with a sword or with a staff - here's your answer.

 

What all this boils down to is the universality of motion as applied in a martial context.

 

Have fun. And stay safe.

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

With reverse grip, as soon as the block is attempted I just pull my arm back, slashing and / or trapping,

 

This video shows why you want to control the elbow of a knife attacker rather than the forearm or wrist, a little more than half way through.  This is one of my teachers that I mentioned around here before, who was high up in the CIA.  In this video he's wearing his Aikijutsu costume, but he was also a Shaolin grandmaster and wore faded blue jeans when I was his student.  He was a member of my extended 'family' and Bruce Lee was also his student for a little while.  Sid had some of the stronger Jedi abilities of the teachers I had, he could move people who were uncooperative and insensitive to energy at a distance just by using his mind, no hands.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Here's a nice technique that you can use with or without a knife.  Like the title says, end it fast!  That's our way, if a fight lasts more than one second you're doing it wrong.

 

This one also has a potential neck break, if you notice where that is, and several other juicy options.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

"Absorb what is useful,

Reject what is useless"

 

Applies to all aspects of our life, doesn't it?

 

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

"Absorb what is useful,

Reject what is useless"

 

Applies to all aspects of our life, doesn't it?

 

 

"And add what is uniquely your own."

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

"And add what is uniquely your own."

Yeah, I intentionally overlooked that.  But it is so true.

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Kenpo Karate moves can be done empty-handed, with a club, as well as with a knife.

 

Similarly, the techniques of Okinawan Kobudo (a martial art that employs a number of different weapons) are often just slight variations of empty-handed (i.e. Karate) movements. - As Nungali's post already indicated.

 

Except I didnt point out that a lot of the 'empty hand' techniques of Karate and Aikido were developed with the consideration that you were wearing a sword anyway (and may chose to use it or not ) , or were against a sword , or were designed to stop a sword draw, or to counter a stop from a sword draw.

 

A few years back I did a very enlightening seminar on all this, with  (the  now passed over )  Dave Browne  ... very interesting ( and fun ! )

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Filipino arts are unique in that training generally starts with armed techniques, and only after a certain degree of mastery has been achieved, application of the same moves and maneuvres without weapons is being taught.

 

All these styles are examples of using virtually the same techniques with various weapons as well as without weapons. Slight adjustments according to the particular characteristics of the weapon being employed, distance, etc. are the only adaptations that are required.

 

That way, you have fighting methods readily available based on what you already know, as opposed to having to learn a new system for each weapon.

 

The samurai figured this out too, BTW. If you ever wondered what's the historical background to Aikido techniques being done with a sword or with a staff - here's your answer.

 

Did Samurai use the staff much ?   or did they just 'knock the end off' for 'peace time training'   ?

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

What all this boils down to is the universality of motion as applied in a martial context.

 

Have fun. And stay safe.

 

 

... and check your training weapons ... I seen a few rather nasty accidents from  damaged, worn ,  weapons or  badly made ones, or ones made from wrong material  .... like a shard of split bamboo  piercing someone's eyeball !

 

That was horrible ... really horrible ...  they managed to recover okay ... phew !  do not do bamboo 'staff fighting'  ... if you do, chuck them after a few hits and get a new one .

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

This video shows why you want to control the elbow of a knife attacker rather than the forearm or wrist, a little more than half way through.  This is one of my teachers that I mentioned around here before, who was high up in the CIA.  In this video he's wearing his Aikijutsu costume, but he was also a Shaolin grandmaster and wore faded blue jeans when I was his student.  He was a member of my extended 'family' and Bruce Lee was also his student for a little while.  Sid had some of the stronger Jedi abilities of the teachers I had, he could move people who were uncooperative and insensitive to energy at a distance just by using his mind, no hands.

 

 

 

a little more than halfway through  ?  .... looks like a gun   ???

 

... I am sure you know my take on that  ? 

 

" could move people who were uncooperative and insensitive to energy at a distance just by using his mind, no hands. "

 

I can do that ... they usually get 'moved '  to a state of engagement   ...

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

"And add what is uniquely your own."

 

... you just had to add that. didnt you .

[Starjumper]

47 minutes ago, Nungali said:

a little more than halfway through  ?  .... looks like a gun   ???

 

Knife stuff starts a little more than a little bit more than halfway through, at 1:40

 

Quote

... I am sure you know my take on that  ? 

 

No. I'm not aware of your thoughts on guns or disarms, do tell.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Starjumper

[Nungali]

Again ?

 

Okay . I was at big professional martial arts club in nearby city ,  teaching the owner instructor some rare kobudo forms . I was asked to come when no one there, and 'park around the back ' .

 

There are a lot of clubs in this area, big competition ( both types, I mean , also big business competition ) .  They all have their system of 'recognition'  ( and charging and fees ) to get up through the (their ) grades .  I am outside of that so 'unrecognised'  ( means 'unqualified'  to them ) .  But still , I am secreted in to  'show' the 'top qualified'  .  

 

Anywayz , we did it, then shared some techniques  and on his large weapons rack I noticed he had wooden hand guns . 

 

Me;  " Dont tell me you are teaching unarmed defence against a hand gun ! "

 

" Sure, why not ?  Wanna try it out on me ? "

 

" .......   Wot ! ?  "  

 

" Take up a gun and I will show you some of our moves ."

 

" Seriously ? "

 

" Yeah, go on . "

 

"Okay then . "  I took a gun off the rack, looked at it, held it my hand,  (and from my spot at the gun rack ) simply raised it and pointed it at him from about  15 metres away . " Put your hands up or I will shoot you . "

 

He did .

 

" Now take out your wallet  and toss it over here on the ground . "

 

- he threw it in front of himself .

 

"Not there, wise guy , over here I said . Now you back off , way over there and go home . "

 

and he goes .... I dont care , that wallet has no ID , cards and only $30 cash in it . "

 

Me;  " Yeah ? "  I aimed the 'gun'  at his knee  and said  " BANG !   - Thats for being a smart arse . .....

 

.... I hope to hell you aren't teaching the kids this stuff ? !  " 

 

 

( If anyone doesnt know what I mean ... check out the 'range' the 'projectile weapon' is being used at in the above vid ... and all of them actually ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   ^    

 

 

 

 

This  range is only necessary if your weapon is 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

Of course if a gun holder is too far away or holding the gun at their hip then you can't take it away.  A lot of muggers and amateurs will hold a gun on you when they are nearby.

 

We've practiced a method of disarming that can work for up to seven feet away.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

No. I'm not aware of your thoughts on guns or disarms, do tell.

And you likely never will as I never tell the truth about things like that.  I never tell anyone the truth about how I am able to defend myself.  That way they always have to wonder if they are willing to die by take the chance of attacking me.

 

As the Master once said to his student, "I taught you everything you know.  I have not taught you everything I know."

 

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

This  range is only necessary if your weapon is 

If you are that close to an opponent you might as well not have that weapon, any weapon.

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

We've practiced a method of disarming that can work for up to seven feet away, and this video shows that you can take out a gun person that is further away than that.

I was going to say at least double arms length but seven is about the same.

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And you likely never will as I never tell the truth about things like that.  I never tell anyone the truth about how I am able to defend myself.  That way they always have to wonder if they are willing to die by take the chance of attacking me.

 

Well then you can make something up.  I won't be attacking you with a gun any time soon, and I doubt anyone else here will either.  Basically it boils down to do you think learning gun disarms are useful or thtupid.  Personally I think learning any kind of defense is simply part of being a more complete person.

 

It's true that some bozos are teaching methods that are wrong (unsafe to the defender), like to some of the police forces in Washington state, so one of my teachers taught some of them safer methods.

[Marblehead]

Oh, I'm with you.  I believe that a good defense eliminates nearly all needs of any kind of offense.  So, no, learning how to disarm someone who is armed with any kind of weapon is very important.

 

I just don't talk about individual methods.  I really don't want to be negating or promoting any specific method.  If it works, practice it and use it if necessary.