Observations from observing Real Fights

[thelerner]

I couldn't find a good thread for this so I created one.  Our view of fights are heavily influenced by Hollywood and professionals.  The truth is the amateur game is much different. 

 

Here's an article written by a guy who seriously analyzed 150+ fights on youtube.  Analyzing what was done, and what were the results. 

https://www.martialjournal.com/i-watched-over-100-fights-on-youtube-heres-what-i-learned/

bits and pieces

 

 

".. Sometimes long-standing theories everyone just assumed were true, weren’t. To my frustration, when confronted with hard data that refuted their claims, many people just ignored them. Or worse, they would try and find holes in our data. Despite that, the research findings of our small, but vocal, team started to slowly influence policy decisions on campus. Ultimately, we had the truth on our side. The cold, hard numbers. For the people who never wanted anything to change, no amount of evidence would convince them. But for the people who understood that all organizations have to move forward, they listened...

 

..

1) Fights often have no clear winner

Some readers will cringe at my use of the word “winner.” Of course on a deeper level, no one really wins in a fight. But I have to define it somehow. When your standing over your unconscious opponent, you’ve “won.”

The most surprising outcome in fighting seems to be no outcome at all. 48.4% of the fights ended indecisively. In most cases, people simply got tired and stopped of their own accord. Bystanders tend to allow fights to play out, but would often step in when there was a lull in the action.

In fact, it seems that fights that drag past just a handful of seconds are unlikely to end in a clear way. Most people seem to have the energy for one, explosive onslaught of punches. If that fails to end the fight, a second onslaught just won’t have the same power. Turns out, fighting really doesn’t solve much...

 

..

5) Almost all fights will go to the ground and stay there

It’s an old cliche that “all fights go to the ground”. And basically, it’s true. Participants engaged in ground fighting 73% percent of the time. When you take out those ten-second knockouts that make up so many early finishes, the number jumps up to 83%.

What’s more, only 41% of grounded fighters were able to return to a standing position. Of those that did, more than half of them returned to the ground (57%).

In terms of outcomes, ground fighting has a major silver lining: violent knockouts drop dramatically on the ground, nearly by half. Only 29% of grounded fighters were knocked out or incapacitated by strikes. For standing fighters, that number jumped to 56%

The last thing worth mentioning is that 57% of the fights that went to the ground happened intentionally, meaning a participant made some sort of attempt at a takedown that worked. The rest was simply a result of people falling down..."

 

 

I found it interesting. 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by thelerner

[thelerner]

 double post :(, hit quote instead of edit

Edited June 29, 2018 by thelerner

[Michael Sternbach]

It depends on what you mean by fighting. A fight (read: self-defence situation) using Kenpo Karate usually doesn't last longer than two seconds.

[Taoist Texts]

Unless a fight ends in someone get killed, it is not a fight. Its a scuffle.

[zerostao]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:57 PM, thelerner said:

 double post :(, hit quote instead of edit

so much violence, you start a thread about fighting and now you're hitting quote

[Apech]

On 6/30/2018 at 8:13 AM, Taoist Texts said:

Unless a fight ends in someone get killed, it is not a fight. Its a scuffle.

 

 

And the dead guy wins on points.

[thelerner]

7 hours ago, zerostao said:

so much violence, you start a thread about fighting and now you're hitting quote

I'll tell you one thing. That quote won't bother me again!!

 

But that's the awful downside of fighting. We're cued to movies where the hero wins and the next episode comes on. 

 

Life is sticky. You see the guy again and win or lose things continue or escalate. Everyone is a hero in there own mind and too often that gives an excuse for some of our worst behavior. 

 

If you have to fight, fight. But if it's an ego thing, suck it up, walk away. The world has enough violence in it. And once started you don't know when it will end, what dark events it might trigger. 

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, thelerner said:

 

If you have to fight, fight. But if it's an ego thing, suck it up, walk away.

No one has to fight. Fighting is always a choice made by the ego. And ego is another name for stupid. Thats what keeps all these strip mall dojos in business.

[thelerner]

I get where you're coming from and respect it, but I've got people and things I want to protect, and I'll fight those who would hurt or take them away.  Which is a reform from my youth where I also had ideas I thought needed protection.. thankfully for the most part I've given up that foolishness.

 

Still, and undoubtedly egoic, there are times it feels good to have blood on my knuckles. Geez there's a line right out of a comic book.

 

p.s for learning to 'fight' I have my doubts about strip mall dojos.  Yet I'm glad my kids had a chance to go to them.  In their traditional karate class were important lessons in honor and discipline, strength and endurance that are hard to get in our society.  And an overall lesson that fighting was a last resort.   Yet its an option, and standing tall and knowing how to throw a decent punch, makes it less likely you have to. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by thelerner

[cosmic4z]

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

No one has to fight. Fighting is always a choice made by the ego. And ego is another name for stupid. Thats what keeps all these strip mall dojos in business.

 

Always? Even if you're attacked and escape isn't an option...

 

As an example, I recall reading about a local lass who was attacked and put on the ground, she managed to fight off her would-be rapist (who ran off) and escape. Was it her stupid ego deciding to fight in that instance?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, cosmic4z said:

Always? Even if you're attacked and escape isn't an option...

If you are attacked, it means that your ego made a choice to become a target. And if it made you a target  with no escape, it probably has a dead wish.

 

2 hours ago, cosmic4z said:

Was it her stupid ego deciding to fight in that instance?

See where , when and how it has happened.

And again, it was not really a fight. Until you guys stop referring to every physical conflict as a 'fight', you gonna be groping in the dark.

[cosmic4z]

Ah, I think I see now.

 

If I undertand you, you're defining 'fight' as 'physical conflict because of ego'; if so, then yes, all fights do happen because of ego.

[Taoist Texts]

"The teenage victim was approached by the unknown man as she walked along a pathway in the early hours of Saturday morning.

Police said the woman was able to grab a sharp object, stabbing her attacker in his side, back or abdomen as he raped her."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/teenager-woman-stabs-rapist-droitwich-worcestershire-police-search-fights-off-self-defence-a8340381.html

this is a fight. she made herself a target, but then used potential letal force.

 

"....was attacked moments after getting off the bus to walk home around on evening at the end of October.  

She noticed a "young lad no older than 18-years-old" walk past her and then heard footsteps behind her which she initially thought was a jogger. 

After following her down a badly lit path, one of the attackers grabbed her arm while the other tried to force her to the ground using her handbag.

But Kerry turned the tables on the unsuspecting pair. Keeping hold of her bag in her elbow crease, she caught one of them with a right hook, before jabbing the other one with a sharp corner of her handbag.  

After hitting one of them for a second time, the pair, who remain at large, fled the scene."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/female-morrison-s-boxer-self-defence-skills-fight-off-thugs-steal-handbag-robbery-a8097516.html

this is not a fight.  a tiny female boxer can not fight off 2 men if they intended to kill her.

 

 

[thelerner]

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

"The teenage victim was approached by the unknown man as she walked along a pathway in the early hours of Saturday morning.

Police said the woman was able to grab a sharp object, stabbing her attacker in his side, back or abdomen as he raped her."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/teenager-woman-stabs-rapist-droitwich-worcestershire-police-search-fights-off-self-defence-a8340381.html

this is a fight. she made herself a target, but then used potential letal force.

I'm sorry it was only potential.  I'd just as soon have a rapist dead. 

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

"....was attacked moments after getting off the bus to walk home around on evening at the end of October.  

She noticed a "young lad no older than 18-years-old" walk past her and then heard footsteps behind her which she initially thought was a jogger. 

After following her down a badly lit path, one of the attackers grabbed her arm while the other tried to force her to the ground using her handbag.

But Kerry turned the tables on the unsuspecting pair. Keeping hold of her bag in her elbow crease, she caught one of them with a right hook, before jabbing the other one with a sharp corner of her handbag.  

After hitting one of them for a second time, the pair, who remain at large, fled the scene."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/female-morrison-s-boxer-self-defence-skills-fight-off-thugs-steal-handbag-robbery-a8097516.html

this is not a fight.  a tiny female boxer can not fight off 2 men if they intended to kill her.

 

Good for her.  A trained boxer, female or not, is a fair match against 2 untrained young thugs.  I hope they're found and do time in prison,  have a chance to feel what its like to be preyed on. 

 

Maybe there are times you can place some criticism on a victim, that there was behavior that increased the risk of attack, but that doesn't mean they deserve it, just that they and others can learn from it.  The blame is still on the attacker and the coward, thief or would be rapist should feel the fullest punishment of the law against them. 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 2.7.2018 at 9:49 PM, thelerner said:

I'm sorry it was only potential.  I'd just as soon have a rapist dead. 

 

Does this mean you support capital punishment? Even for attempted rape?

 

Quote

Good for her.  A trained boxer, female or not, is a fair match against 2 untrained young thugs. 

 

That depends. I assume that those cowardly assailants were expecting her to be an easy victim - when they met with resistance, they quickly gave up. Note, she didn't knock them out, she just chased them away. Still, she did a good job, of course.

 

Quote

 

I hope they're found and do time in prison,  have a chance to feel what its like to be preyed on. 

 

So you think prisons should be places of victimization?

 

And you seem to expect that that would make better humans out of those guys. But isn't it more likely that it would actually reinforce their "eat/be eaten" type of belief system? Making them just wait for their chance to turn the tables?

 

Personally, I suspect that to be a mechanism that contributes to the considerable recidivism rates for prisoners in the US and elsewhere.

 

Quote

Maybe there are times you can place some criticism on a victim, that there was behavior that increased the risk of attack, but that doesn't mean they deserve it, just that they and others can learn from it.  

 

The philosophy of personal responsibility for what happens to you (and I believe that's what TT referred to) is a sensitive and (apparently) rather complex topic. We had an interesting thread on it a little while ago.

 

At any rate, it does not involve 'placing criticism on a victim', nor does it suggest they may have 'deserved' what experienced. Such concepts are based on a dualistic perspective, which that philosophy transcends altogether.

 

Quote

The blame is still on the attacker and the coward, thief or would be rapist should feel the fullest punishment of the law against them. 

 

By the same token, aforesaid philosophy also doesn't excuse anybody's behaviour - you could even say that whatever consequences that behaviour entails were attracted by them as well.

 

On another note, severity of punishments can vary greatly from one place to another, according to whatever a majority of people in a given society (or in some cases, an elite) regards as 'just'. Jurisdictions are very much man-made and reflect the values of a particular society, for better or worse. But how effective is threatening people with punishment really as far as preventing destructive behaviour is concerned?

 

While on the current level of human development, some form of punishment seems indispensable, I favour the approach taken e.g. by some penal institutions in Holland, which offer encounter groups and behavioural therapies to their inmates. If memory serves, I have heard of similar undertakings in the US as well.

 

And in regards to your previous post:

 

On 1.7.2018 at 11:35 PM, thelerner said:

I get where you're coming from and respect it, but I've got people and things I want to protect, and I'll fight those who would hurt or take them away.  Which is a reform from my youth where I also had ideas I thought needed protection.. thankfully for the most part I've given up that foolishness.

 

Still, and undoubtedly egoic, there are times it feels good to have blood on my knuckles. Geez there's a line right out of a comic book.

 

I am glad you noticed that yourself.

 

Quote

p.s for learning to 'fight' I have my doubts about strip mall dojos.  Yet I'm glad my kids had a chance to go to them.  In their traditional karate class were important lessons in honor and discipline, strength and endurance that are hard to get in our society.  And an overall lesson that fighting was a last resort.   Yet its an option, and standing tall and knowing how to throw a decent punch, makes it less likely you have to. 

 

I certainly agree to that, and I would add awareness as one of the most valuable qualities that martial arts teach.

 

In conclusion:

 

Trust me, I do understand where you come from and I am actually able to empathize with you regarding much of what you expressed in this thread so far (at least at certain moments). However, the matter didn't leave me in peace...

 

This is a forum for spiritual discussion, and you have touched on some questions that I feel every individual on a 'consciousness journey' needs to reflect upon at some stage. Hence my thoughts and conclusions as the result of my own reflections...

 

Peace

Michael

Edited July 4, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

On 03/07/2018 at 2:14 AM, Taoist Texts said:

If you are attacked, it means that your ego made a choice to become a target. And if it made you a target  with no escape, it probably has a dead wish.

 

 

Wow !

 

Some big egos in this lot then .....

 

Spoiler

insert whatever horrible picture of people suffering oppression, genocide,  etc .

 

[thelerner]

 

 

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Does this mean you support capital punishment? Even for attempted rape?

 

Let's see.  Capital Punishment.. in some very strict, very well documented cases involving particular sadism, yes.  Thus, not for rape, yet if a rape perpetrator gets killed inwardly I think.. good. 

 

For justice to work well, it needs to be separated from personal feelings of vengeance.  Otherwise it risks devolving into gang prejudices.  Still.. if the rapist was lying dead of his wounds..  I'd be fine with it.  Personally, if say I had a gun and stopped a rapist, I hope I'd discharge at least one bullet, even after he stopped and surrendered.  I don't feel that way about robbery, stuff is just stuff.  Not even saying I'd kill him, but I hope I'd put a bullet somewhere, then lie about it and say whoopsie.  I doubt that'll ever happen, but its the way I feel. 

Quote

 

 

That depends. I assume that those cowardly assailants were expecting her to be an easy victim - when they met with resistance, they quickly gave up. Note, she didn't knock them out, she just chased them away. Still, she did a good job, of course.

 

 

So you think prisons should be places of victimization?

 

I don't think they should be places of victimization, but what I think doesn't change reality.  The fact is, many if not most are.  With luck, they'll be caught, do jail time and be scared straight.  Though probably, they won't be caught and might do it again, until they're caught and have there own epiphany.  

 

Quote

 

And you seem to expect that that would make better humans out of those guys. But isn't it more likely that it would actually reinforce their "eat/be eaten" type of belief system? Making them just wait for their chance to turn the tables?

I don't think the penal system should be eat or be eaten, nor do I think it should be particularly pleasant, though inmates should be protected from each other, murder, rapes and intimidation should not be tolerated.  More man power, supervision, technology and changing the layouts should help.

  You should acknowledge that a slap on the wrist, turn around courts/bleeding hearts can also make crime more prevalent.  I took a class in American Prisons, the swings between rehabilitation and punishment.  I think you need both, and particularly more money should be spent, after prison, in both monitoring and support so they don't fall back into crime. 

 

Quote

 

Personally, I suspect that to be a mechanism that contributes to the considerable recidivism rates for prisoners in the US and elsewhere.

 

The philosophy of personal responsibility for what happens to you (and I believe that's what TT referred to) is a sensible and (apparently) rather complex topic. We had an interesting thread on it a little while ago.

 

At any rate, it does not involve 'placing criticism on a victim', nor does it suggest they may have 'deserved' what experienced. Such concepts are based on a dualistic perspective, which that philosophy transcends altogether.

 

By the same token, aforesaid philosophy also doesn't excuse anybody's behaviour - you could even say that whatever consequences that behaviour entails were attracted by them as well.

 

On another note, severity of punishments can vary greatly from one place to another, according to whatever a majority of people in a given society (or in some cases, an elite) regards as 'just'. Jurisdictions are very much man-made and reflect the values of a particular society, for better or worse. But how effective is threatening people with punishment really as far as preventing destructive behaviour is concerned?

I think in civilization its a necessity.  If you break a law, hurt, rob, steal, rape or kill, that its appropriate to have an unpleasant penalty.   With my children, in my household, there are rules and responsibilities, break them and there are consequences.  I've seen households without consequences and the kids do not benefit.  Similarly, there should be rehabilitation and much more support after prison. 

 

Quote

 

While on the current level of human development, some form of punishment seems indispensable, I favour the approach taken e.g. by some penal institutions in Holland, which offer encounter groups and behavioural therapies to their inmates. If memory serves, I have heard of similar undertakings in the US as well.

 

In conclusion:

 

 

Trust me, I do understand where you come from and I am actually able to empathize with you regarding much of what you expressed in this thread so far (at least at certain moments). However, the matter didn't leave me in peace...

 

This is a forum for spiritual discussion, and you have touched on some questions that I feel every individual on a 'consciousness journey' needs to reflect upon at some stage. Hence my thoughts and conclusions as the result of my own reflections...

 

Peace

Michael

 

I appreciate your thoughts.  The Holland system of kindness overkill is interesting and worthy of setting up test cases here in the U.S, but we are a different society.  Localities should have input into the rules and punishments.   The government should do research and make recommendations based on pragmatism into how to best balance rehabilitation and punishment.  And in my mind do a much better job of aftercare, both watching and helping those stay straight.  Technology can help.  Having communal work and housing available for those who choose it. 

 

I'd like to see conditioned surrender in the war on drugs.  Having unbiased studies look at the whole picture of how legalization and decriminalization has affected the various levels of social structure.  Studying how it's helped and hurt because I'm sure its done both.  Weighing both and allowing the States to decide based on the best evidence.  Some drugs should be controlled and regulated, but perhaps there's a way of doing that which side steps the whole crime/prison circle, ie specific supervised places for hard or psychedelic drugs.

 

Similarly it'd be smart to see prison population reduced for non-violent drug crimes.  Also to end crazy forfeiture without trial laws that some districts have and abuse. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by thelerner

[windwalker]

On 6/30/2018 at 6:56 AM, thelerner said:

Our view of fights are heavily influenced by Hollywood and professionals.  The truth is the amateur game is much different. 

 

 

Shouldn't that be "your" view and maybe some others...who share it.

Its not mine.

 

You didn't mention as others whether you've had any real experience beyond being voyeurs having to watch

video clips and reading articles,  talking about conscious choices. 

 

Maybe feeling they'll have the time to make one should the need arise.    .

 

I bet these people still dont understand feeling they made a conscious choice but didn't seem to understand

that not all people make the same choices.  It left them unaware   

 

kinda funny,,,,excuse me, did you just throw that rock or did it slip out of your hand...yep that must be it,,it slipped right?

 

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by windwalker

[thelerner]

17 hours ago, windwalker said:

Shouldn't that be "your" view and maybe some others...who share it.

Its not mine.

 

Uh, sure.  Me and the others, Us.  Everyone who doesn't opt out. 

 

 

[zerostao]

I think anyone's influences on how they view "fighting" would depend on what neighborhood they were raised up in. Much of the middle class is likely influenced by Hollywood and professionals. I like the point thelerner made about once something has started it may never end and who knows what darkness will come of it. I imagine there are other places besides Hillbillyville where if something goes down, it is not the police that is called but family or trusted friends, or gang, etc. The potential for escalation should not be discounted.
Rarely would there ever be anyone considered a "winner" after such an unfortunate event.

If you live close to the tracks or on the other side of them you likely have influences that are not Hollywood that shape your view on "fighting."

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, zerostao said:

I think anyone's influences on how they view "fighting" would depend on what neighborhood they were raised up in. Much of the middle class is likely influenced by Hollywood and professionals. I like the point thelerner made about once something has started it may never end and who knows what darkness will come of it. I imagine there are other places besides Hillbillyville where if something goes down, it is not the police that is called but family or trusted friends, or gang, etc. The potential for escalation should not be discounted.
Rarely would there ever be anyone considered a "winner" after such an unfortunate event.

If you live close to the tracks or on the other side of them you likely have influences that are not Hollywood that shape your view on "fighting."