What does Daoism, and any tradition, call the astral and mental bodies?

[EmeraldHead]

The astral body is 'behind' the physical body. 

 

The mental body is well known among serious occultists here in the west. It is used in evocation/invocation of spirits. Actually most 'evocations' have the purpose of meeting the spirit on the mental plane and connecting with them there. The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane - focusing consciousness upon the mental plane so your meeting them there is 'clear' to you. 

 

What do traditions call these? By identifying what they are called we can access various points of view on this and potentially new practices. 

Thanks. 

[Nungali]

'Astral'    'metal body'  ....   even 'etheric body'   are modern terms thrown around by people who usually cant explain in detail what they mean.  Their origins are mostly  Theosophical, and in that light can only really be understood within those frameworks.

 

Its not as if it is something 'real'  it is a concept that developed over time  from Proculous and then followed the usual development of 'western occultism' ;  Mesmer,  Levi, Golden Dawn, Blavatski, Theosophy and latter Theosophical writers and others , including Crowley ( who attributed its existence to the power of imagination ) .

 

Basically astral comes from aster - star and the 'astral concept' originated from the old hermetic world view. The 'astral realm' actually consisted of the 'heavenly realm' which contained the 'spheres of the planets' with the 'mundane world' at its core .

 

This gives the significant number of  '7 spheres' ,  the original Theosophical concept ;

 

http://www.theosophywales.com/seven_bodies_of_man__a_brie.htm

 

read the section on astral; we can see it was originally a type of 'emotive imagination' function of the mind . 

 

The 'mental body' is really no more than the mind and mental process with the added on thing that a mind makes 'mental waves' and this somehow effects the 'astral world', somehow changing it and now making that the 'mental; world' .

 

These 'teachings' came from post Victorian westerners who first encountered 'oriental mysticism' and tried to put into other terms , not very successfully and often confused  eg :

 

"

Astral Body is a term used to refer to one or more of the subtle bodies of human beings. In early Theosophical literature it was usually applied to the Liṅga-śarīra, the ethereal counterpart of the physical body. However, the term was also used for other subtle bodies, such as the Māyāvi-Rūpa.

 

Later, Dr. Besant, within the tradition followed by the Theosophical Society (Adyar), redefined the terms to apply them in an unambiguous way. She used the term "Etheric Double" for the Liṅga-śarīra and "Astral Body" for what she called the Emotional Body. "

 

And here is a great example of how the New Age got so confused trying to follow all of this :" She also talked about the conscious projection of this subtle body, using the phrase "astral form" for it: "   Sometimes this 'astral form'  is called 'body of light' .

 

Then besant did some swapping  (like most post Blavatski Theosophical authors, they re wrote, censored, watered down Blavatski )

" She decided to call H. P. Blavatsky's linga sharira "etheric double" and use the name "astral body" only to refer to the kamic or emotional body: "

 

It wasnt long before some started throwing the whole mess out.  Lets just stick with 4 basic 'bodies' , the Anthroposophists  ( Steiner etc.) decided that ,  based on the 4 elements used physical 'astral' and 'etheric' but added 'ego' (of a specific type )  . This went along with the basic Qabbalistic understanding of the '4 types of soul' . 

https://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA319/English/APC1928/19240724p02.html

 

Thats mostly the system I work with ( a 4 fold division - not a Steiner version ) ;   Fire, water, air, earth ;  the 'individual nature', the emotional 'body' , the mind and intellect and the physical body .  (And each of these has another 4 fold sub division eg. the body has fire as the nervous system, water as the circulatory system, air as respiritory system and skeleton ,muscles, tendons etc as earth.)

 

I have to say though, I dont really understand what this means :

 

" It is used in evocation/invocation of spirits. Actually most 'evocations' have the purpose of meeting the spirit on the mental plane and connecting with them there. The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane - focusing consciousness upon the mental plane so your meeting them there is 'clear' to you."

 

A lot more than the 'mental body' is used in spirit evocation  - I suppose that depends on meaning of 'mental body'.    'Most' evocations seem to have the intent of a breakthrough into the physical plane

 

Can you put this into other words  :   " The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane "  ?

 

[EmeraldHead]

Nungali. I think you have no experiential stand on this at all.

[CityHermit!]

From what I've read, there's a number of Daoist texts that make reference to it often in terms like body beyond the body or some such and sometimes differentiated as going out from the baihui as opposed to out through the yintang.

[EmeraldHead]

3 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

From what I've read, there's a number of Daoist texts that make reference to it often in terms like body beyond the body or some such and sometimes differentiated as going out from the baihui as opposed to out through the yintang.

Any specifics?

 

As a first thought, it's likely they are reffering to mundane things in a fancy way. For example daoists depict the types of shen as actual spirits. As the astral body is not found up the baihui, or in the mingmen, or in the dantiens, or around the niwan, so the other bodies are not found in physical space. 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Arramu said:

Nungali. I think you have no experiential stand on this at all.

 

Why would you think that ?  Without even knowing me?   All you have  to do is read some of my posts on the subject on this forum - there are heaps of them !   I have been studying  and practising western hermeticism and magic for  over 40 years !

 

As far as 'experiential' goes, I not only have practical experience,  my practices were written up as experiments in diaries and journals, I have about 5 volumes of them .

 

I  excavated, built and operated my own temple, where many an evocation and invocation was made .

 

Here are some pictures ;

 

 

 

we could talk further about this, and you could potentially be enlightened about what you asked for .... if  you can change your assumptive and dismissive attitude

Edited July 8, 2018 by Nungali

[Nungali]

... also you could answer the questions I asked you .... instead of diverting away from them.

[Starjumper]

17 hours ago, Arramu said:

Nungali. I think you have no experiential stand on this at all.

 

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Why would you think that ?  Without even knowing me?

 

The longer and more detailed post you write, with the more links to back it up, the more likely it is that 'someone' will say it's BS.

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

The longer and more detailed post you write, with the more links to back it up, the more likely it is that 'someone' will say it's BS.

 

Why is that ?  Does it seem 'threatening'  or something ? 

[Starjumper]

On 7/7/2018 at 5:01 AM, Arramu said:

What do traditions call these? By identifying what they are called we can access various points of view on this and potentially new practices. 

 

 

[Starjumper]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Why is that ?  Does it seem 'threatening'  or something ? 

 

Your first two paragraphs threatened his little dream world and so he rejected it out of hand rather than look at the evidence.

[Nungali]

31 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Your first two paragraphs threatened his little dream world and so he rejected it out of hand rather than look at the evidence.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Nungali

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Illusory Body
The true Tao is formless, true nature is without body (substance), true law is without comparisons, to not hold onto your physical body is to speak of the Tao, outside of this physical body there is a true body, though normal people take this false body for truth. Greedily covering riches and glory for the sake of this physical body, scheming money and property to support it.

 

Grasping Images
The primordial Way gives form to the formless. It is not all this physical body which does work in the world, so where and when does the formless body begin its work? Leaving the body we can no longer discuss the Way. Grasping onto images we neglect truth. The human body is the combination of five illusions. They are externally expressed as eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and mouth and internally as the heart, liver, stomach, lungs, and kidneys. When death comes, they will be reduced to a pile of bones and rotting flesh. If one is too attached to their body during cultivation how can they achieve unity of nature and life? One must know that the body creates much toil in this life. Therefore, to preserve the Golden Elixir of the Way the Taoists cultivate their nature and life, cultivating the inner spirit as well as taking well care of the physical body. Our true spirit, also called dharma body or the yang spirit has no imperfection. Once the Yang spirit is cultivated, one can enter water without drowning, enter fire without burning, endure as long as heaven and earth, and is as illuminated as the sun and moon.

[Michael Sternbach]

The concept of Man's subtle bodies goes back to the Hermetic Astrology of the 2nd century BC. It was received in Hermetic, Platonic and Gnostic circles, which came up with different versions specific to their general philosophical outlook. E.g., it is being referred to in the Poimandres, a text that is central to the Hermetic tradition, as well as in the neo-Platonic writings of Plotinus and Porphyry. Later it played an important role in European metaphysics from the Middle Ages to the end of the Renaissance. Thus it already had a history of at least two-thousand years before it became a part of 'modern' Theosophy.

 

In brief, the idea was that before birth, the soul descends from the cross section of the Milky Way and the Zodiac in Cancer through the seven concentric planetary spheres all the way down to Earth. Passing through a sphere, it would envelop itself with the subtle 'matter' that belongs to it, which would endow the pre-natal individual with various qualities. There you have the origin of the term "astral body". (It was probably the neo-Platonist Proclus who first talked in terms of the soul's "astral vehicle".)

 

The Daoist tradition also has a concept of subtle bodies - besides the physical body, an "energy body" and a "spiritual body" are mentioned -, however, they are not considered to be innate to the human being, but must be developed by years of Alchemical practice.

 

Perhaps the seeming contradiction can be resolved by the assumption that, even though everybody is born with subtle bodies, they can be activated and strengthened by methods of spiritual cultivation.

 

Nowadays we are dealing with a plethora of different systems of subtle bodies, which often defy all attempts to unify them. Nevertheless, I (for one) welcome this topic and will be pleased to make further contributions to it as the occasion arises.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Perhaps the seeming contradiction can be resolved by the assumption that, even though everybody is born with subtle bodies, they can be activated and strengthened by methods of spiritual cultivation.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah !

 

And such methods can effect how the physical body operates .  For example ,   I learnt a LOT about  how the martial arts forms ( 'sets') I have been studying  ( 21 empty handed and 14 with various weapons and multiples of each moves application within each set)  by practising them each night  before I went to sleep by  'imagining'  I  had projected out of my physical body that lay on the bed and practised against   another projection of myself .

 

It worked really well as a memory aid  and also revealed new and interesting applications which I would then try out on others physically at training.   People would wonder how I learnt and retained so much and also where all this new stuff was coming from. teacher accused me of having another secret teacher ! 

 

One day I said to them ; "Dont you guys train in your imagination for kata and  against others . " and   I got 

 

 

And teacher said  " Thats how I learnt all these katas, I would  go over them in my mind and imagine myself ding them . "

 

And he does know an awful lot of katas and bunkai ..... as that is what he practices, but he only does it by 'himself'  , as a kata.  hence he  never comes up with new  bunkai or variations and was mystified as to how I got mine .  . . . .  but he is only doing a 'solo visualisation' .

 

Also, for want of better terms , he might be 'training'  on the  'mental and physical'  planes but not  .......   wait for it  .....

 

'training on the astral '

 

 

.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Same here  after learning a martial art form my teacher traced a small box on the floor and said now do the form in the box.

 

An amazing thing happens, all movements fire within the body just going through the  moves in our mind without moving.

 

Many are familiar with the immortal fetus in Taoist practice. laying the foundation, nurturing, and maturing the formless body..

 

Keeping the spirit and higher shens inside the physical body is the key. The feeling of completeness arises. all things are done.

 

The spirit normally leaves the body in everyday life this is a problem. the same with attracting lower spirits by not taking care of our physical body causing trouble with our earthly life.

 

 

[EmeraldHead]

12 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The longer and more detailed post you write, with the more links to back it up, the more likely it is that 'someone' will say it's BS.

Bro, sometimes, but it isn't an absolute rule.

[EmeraldHead]

 

 

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The concept of Man's subtle bodies goes back to the Hermetic Astrology of the 2nd century BC

 

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The Daoist tradition also has a concept of subtle bodies

 

How many bodies?

 

[EmeraldHead]

52 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

immortal fetus in Taoist practice. laying the foundation, nurturing, and maturing the formless body..

As I understand of it, those deal with merely the physical and astral bodies. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Arramu

[EmeraldHead]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

I have been studying  and practising western hermeticism and magic for  over 40 years !

Great! I had the impression you're just quoting. And theosophy explains most of this stuff very badly. 

 

On Sunday, July 08, 2018 at 12:22 AM, Nungali said:

I have to say though, I dont really understand what this means :

 

" It is used in evocation/invocation of spirits. Actually most 'evocations' have the purpose of meeting the spirit on the mental plane and connecting with them there. The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane - focusing consciousness upon the mental plane so your meeting them there is 'clear' to you."

 

A lot more than the 'mental body' is used in spirit evocation  - I suppose that depends on meaning of 'mental body'.    'Most' evocations seem to have the intent of a breakthrough into the physical plane

 

Can you put this into other words  :   " The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane "  ?

 

 

It's like this for the lower ones: 

 

Physical - (the highest/subtlest layer of it is the etheric double of the physical world. Not a world or body one can navigate around in.                        It's a static wax like copy that merely holds charge)

     post-natal jing

     post-natal chi (at etheric, hence having an ldt builds etheric matter)

Astral

     post-natal shen

How many bodies are above? What are they made of? What do they do? What energies to they have? Anyone know

 

In the quote above, I meant people only use the 3rd body/sharira during evocations. When else do they use it? 

And yes, evocation starts at the mental plane, then it solidifies further down. And requires more resources. For example it takes chi to manifest a spirit visibly and do more. 

[EmeraldHead]

13 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

Where ? I don't see it

[Starjumper]

26 minutes ago, Arramu said:

Where ? I don't see it

 

It is in Taoist Text's PPD folder.  If you click the title above which has the words Misconceptions of Qigong, Neidan, Alchemy 2.0 it should take you there.  That thread is a sobering and realistic look at the 'current state of affairs' and I/ve been enjoying reading the stuff in there.

 

I myself reject many words in the spirituality world (including the word 'self') as meaningless of unneeded.  However if people do agree on some meaning then it could be of some use to them to discuss it ... but I remain skeptical  .  However this is a forum that must use words and so it is.

[EmeraldHead]

20 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

hat thread is a sobering and realistic look at the 'current state of affairs' and I/ve been enjoying reading the stuff in there.

From the middle duration glance I gave it, it's only basic directions for new people to mystic side of life/true world. It does not mention the various planes that the spirit functions on. 

[Starjumper]

6 minutes ago, Arramu said:

From the middle duration glance I gave it, it's only basic directions for new people to mystic side of life/true world. It does not mention the various planes that the spirit functions on. 

 

That's true. what I was pointing to is the use of words that are incorrect or meaningless, and that post and others there talk clearly about such things.  For example, there is no mental body, no spiritual body, no energy body, no etheric body, there's just a body, and it has energy which radiates and creates an aura that some can see and/or feel in others.  The use of the word 'body' does not refer to any kind of actual body, it's just a word that refers to something else and therefore it is misleading and useless.  That's just my opinion  

Edited July 9, 2018 by Starjumper

[EmeraldHead]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 For example, there is no mental body, no spiritual body, no energy body, no etheric body, there's just a body, and it has energy which creates an aura that some can see and/or feel in others.

 

Bro..

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

That's just my opinion