What does Daoism, and any tradition, call the astral and mental bodies?

[CityHermit!]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 6:10 AM, Arramu said:

Any specifics?

 

As a first thought, it's likely they are reffering to mundane things in a fancy way. For example daoists depict the types of shen as actual spirits. As the astral body is not found up the baihui, or in the mingmen, or in the dantiens, or around the niwan, so the other bodies are not found in physical space. 

I can have a look through my library again, as I sort of have to lately anyway for something on another topic I am writing about. What I meant to say about the points was not that they were said to reside there but were the considered exit points for Shen or whatever to leave from. Again, I could venture to say off the top of my head which texts said this but I don't want to mistaken and would rather check my sources again.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Arramu said:

Great! I had the impression you're just quoting. And theosophy explains most of this stuff very badly. 

 

I neglected to tag the quoting - wiki article on 'astral ' .  The reason I let Wiki explain that particular part is because if I state things peeps often go "what would you know ! "

 

Theosophy does explain it badly, for an in depth study I recommend Vedanta . I am not familiar with the Daoist concepts of it . But then, new terms and understandings need to be found .

 

Part of the problem is English language - we just  dont have the terms for  in depth spirituality,  or even psychology ,  thats why English borrows so many esoteric terms from other languages.  ( English is however, a good language for commerce      )

 

 

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And yes, evocation starts at the mental plane, then it solidifies further down. And requires more resources. For example it takes chi to manifest a spirit visibly and do more. 

 

Is this the Daoist process of evocation ?      I am still unclear what you mean about 'starting on the mental plane ' .  Would not that be an internal process ?

 

If so, that makes it very different from the western system which is most definitely supposed to be done externally ; ie, you are in the circle, the evoked spirit is outside the circle and in the triangle .

 

Unless you are talking about some type of 'collective  mental plane '  and not one's own personal one   ? 

 

Do you mean  ' visualise the ceremony or ritual'  ?

 

 

Also , considering  'other traditions'  there are concepts like  Akh,  Ba,  Ka , etc of the ancient Egyptians

 

And  mainyu, urvan, fraveshi, khvarana, etc of Zoroastrianism  ( my preferred system as it seems the origin of much of the  deeper more modern western magical concepts ) .

 

But they all seem slightly different due to different cultural understandings. When one studies  that   ( the cultural differences via cultural anthropology, for example) one can distil certain essences  that are similar and construct a system which seems most common .

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Nungali

[EmeraldHead]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Unless you are talking about some type of 'collective  mental plane '  and not one's own personal one   ? 

Mental plane is mental plane, no fanciness. As far as I know.

 

What can you do on the mental plane? Can you heart someone else there? Can you give shaktipat like? Can you travel? What does it look like?

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Also , considering  'other traditions'  there are concepts like  Akh,  Ba,  Ka , etc of the ancient Egyptians

 

And  mainyu, urvan, fraveshi, khvarana, etc of Zoroastrianism 

I don't know these. Which ones are qi? Do you know?

[dwai]

On 7/7/2018 at 5:01 AM, Arramu said:

The astral body is 'behind' the physical body. 

 

The mental body is well known among serious occultists here in the west. It is used in evocation/invocation of spirits. Actually most 'evocations' have the purpose of meeting the spirit on the mental plane and connecting with them there. The physical dances contain and support the astral forms which make the bridge for connection at the mental plane - focusing consciousness upon the mental plane so your meeting them there is 'clear' to you. 

 

What do traditions call these? By identifying what they are called we can access various points of view on this and potentially new practices. 

Thanks. 

In Hindu dharma/Vedanta, the three bodies are called Sthula Sharira (Gross Body), Linga or Sukshma Sharira (symbolic or subtle body) and Karana Sharira (Causal Body). 

 

The Sthula Sharira comprised of all five sheaths (koshas) - Physical body

The Linga Sharira  excludes the annamaya kosha (food-based sheath) but contains all the other four sheaths. -- Dream body

The kārana sharīra contains only the anandamaya kosha (blissful sheath) -- Deep sleep body.

 

[EmeraldHead]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

excludes the annamaya kosha (food-based sheath) but contains all the other four sheaths

 

This kind of deep understanding/anatomy I seek! xd dwai

[dwai]

 

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Could Turya refer to a higher body...or the soul? What could it be? The tao/dharmma?

 

What must one do to experience Turya? If you can go into X samadhi type or jhana, are you automatically able to enter Turya or is Turya an ultimatum?

 

Turiya literally means the "fourth". In that, when considering it from the perspective of Waking, Dreaming and Deep sleep, it is the "fourth" apparently separate from the three. But Turiya is our True Nature, ie Pure Awareness or Objectless Consciousness. It is in Turiya that everything arises into manifestation and then sinks back (waking, dreaming and deep sleep). 

 

What can one do to experience Turiya? Nothing! Turiya is you. You cannot experience your own Self. It is the Eternal Subject to all objects. 

Edited July 10, 2018 by dwai

[dwai]

Just now, Arramu said:

So based on what you say, I infer Turya-states equivalent to the base of awareness. The fundamental of our experience/consciousness. "pure awareness". The ground of it. 

 

So that would be the soul? It uses a body/kaya/sharira?

Soul is the personality that acquires habits and patterns of mentation. Turiya is the Self. Not Soul. In Advaita Vedanta, we call Turiya Atman. "Soul" is jiva (the limited identity that thinks it is the body-mind, and governed by the laws of time and space). 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, Arramu said:

I see, so one who has achieved Turya, is enlightened ? (or at least touched on it, as some like William Bodri make the distinction between just enlightened and fully enlightened).

Its very tricky because it is very simple. Like the Buddha said "Everyone has Buddha-nature". That is Turiya. It is not something to be achieved. It is our very reality. What needs to happen is dropping of misidentification with all the things that pull our attention outward. There are millions of pages of material written about this stuff.

 

"Enlightenment" is not something that is "achieved". Rather, we have to uncover the inherent Light of our Being by clearing away all the crap we have accumulated since birth. It is a switch in perspective. The great bhakti saint of India Kabir wrote about this in one of his couplets.

 

"The scent of Kasturi is the base of the Kasturi Deer, but it wanders the forest seeking it here and there. Similarly, God lives in the heart of man, but he wanders here and there looking for him".

 

[Nungali]

On 10/07/2018 at 12:41 AM, Starjumper said:

 

That's true. what I was pointing to is the use of words that are incorrect or meaningless, and that post and others there talk clearly about such things.  For example, there is no mental body, no spiritual body, no energy body, no etheric body, there's just a body, and it has energy which radiates and creates an aura that some can see and/or feel in others.  The use of the word 'body' does not refer to any kind of actual body, it's just a word that refers to something else and therefore it is misleading and useless.  That's just my opinion  

 

 

Or it becomes a general term that no one really understands but uses it anyway, and everyone nods in agreement like they know what is being talked about . I hit this big time when I worked in bio-dynamic agriculture  . How does it work ?  It 'balances the 'astral energies' , my boss said . yet he could not explain what astral was and got defensive !   Steiner writes stuff ( and I read his whole book on agriculture, no one else at work, including boss did !  he says things like ;' the farm is an entity with its head in the ground and its stomach in the air ' . I could eventually make sense of that, yes, its a great and helpful description, 'in the field' and when you understand the system in depth.  But he also says birds are good to have as they create streams of astral energy when they fly , from one place to another .   ......  and bats trail bad energy  ......       < ahem ! > . I never found one BDer that could explain what their own terms meant .

 

I often use the term 'psychic anatomy'  , which is also misleading due to the psychic word . What it is referring  to is the psyche and different aspects of it , but not any 'anatomy of a body'  .  

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Arramu said:

Mental plane is mental plane, no fanciness. As far as I know.

 

 

13 hours ago, Arramu said:

 

What can you do on the mental plane? Can you heart someone else there? Can you give shaktipat like? Can you travel? What does it look like?

 

Hmmm ... I think we got a crossed wire .    I asked you a question and got a lot of questions back , I guess the point got lost -  I WAS commenting on the uselessness of such terms without clear definitions ......  whatever.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Arramu said:

I don't know these. Which ones are qi? Do you know?

 

 

'Qi' is something different and not always part of a cultures 'psychic anatomy' scheme.

 

But , generally,  Qi -  the 'life force and relating to 'air'   and breath , in Greek that would be  'pneuma ' ('spirit'  or 'soul' ), in Kabbalah 'Ruach' in Egyptian it is  trickier and spans a few concepts , one is magical power that imbues anything , some see the 'shm' as the living force or life-force of the soul , in Zoroastrianism  I am not familiar with a term that equates to 'animating life force', that probably comes through 'Urvan' ( 'soul') , yet practices to develop 'chi'  (aligning breath, movement and exercise for awareness ) could be found in their health practices.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Arramu said:

 

This kind of deep understanding/anatomy I seek! xd dwai

 

Like I said .... English is a bad language for this .   Most of the in depth  'research' on  'psychic anatomy', the terminology and understandings,  comes from Vedanta, Buddhism, Daoism.   

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.7.2018 at 2:12 PM, Arramu said:

 

 

 

 

How many bodies?

 

 

From what I have read, besides the physical body, there is the 'energy body' or 'soul body', and the 'spiritual body'. So just three in this system (including the physical).

[dwai]

 

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For example hinduism tells you general notions like the astral and physical shariras are changed in each life as one incarnates, but the causal sharira remains. But still there isn't much understanding of what can be done with the causal body, what is it's nature. Physical body holds ojas and prana. Astral body holds tejas. Does the causal sharira hold something? Pre-natal energy?  I don't even know.

The Hindu/Vedantic model is, that the Causal body is the root of this "existence". It contains ignorance (or nescience). The universe exists in seed form in the causal body. When we fall into deep sleep, there are no more objects for the subject consciousness to experience. So in a sense, the universe disappears. But when we wake up, it comes back into existence. The causal body contains the seeds of our waking and dreaming realities. 

 

It is also incorrect (imho) to refer to energy as such (pre-natal, post-natal, etc). That is an incomplete view. There is only awareness, whose creative aspect manifests as energy. If you go by the Hindu system, it is "Purusha - Awareness, Prakriti - Energy" or "Shiva - Awareness and his Shakti - Energy".  In the Vedantic tradition, it is called "Brahman - Awareness and Maya - The creative power of Brahman". 

In other words, there really is no separate "thing" called energy. 

 

Found this link that might help elucidate the topic -- http://explorevedanta.com/vbc-the-3-bodies/

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by dwai
added a link