different kabala trees

[gj551]

hi folks

 

so there are different kabala trees - maybe they are in some sequential order. the one most of you may be familiar with is probably the so called "cordovero"-tree (by moses cordovero).. this one:

 

 

then theres the "luria"-tree... isaac luria lived around 1600   it looks like this:

 

as you can see, the 'branches' of the tree have different letters assigned to them. so then, the third tree i wish to present is the "abulafia"-tree from abraham abulafia - this one:

 

 

so we have three different trees:

 

(the second one is the "sufi" tree but will not take it into consideration). whats the difference between each one one of them?  i got the vibe that luria's tree is somehow more 'sophisticated' when used in kabalistic magic

 

please do discuss

Edited July 8, 2018 by gj551

[Nungali]

" somehow more 'sophisticated' when used in kabalistic magic  "

 

How so ? 

 

....  then again there is the   'Nungali Tree'  .   'Sophisticated '          .... when used in personal astro-psychological  magick

 

[Aetherous]

I haven't read them yet, but I think these two books explore this topic:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Gates-Light-Occult-Reconstructed-ebook/dp/B00JTKGLZK/

https://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Paths-Light-Occult-Reclaimed-ebook/dp/B07C9TPRCF/

[Zhongyongdaoist]

It's been a long time since I bothered with untangling Qabalah in its purely Jewish sense, not since the early 80s, but first of all, your dating of anything relating to Abulafia is wrong, since he was a medieval Qabalist, and anything that is his should be dated to the Thirteenth Century.  Beyond that I don't have more to say now, since I would need to really rummage through my prodigious memory to say anything more than speculation based on some things that immediately come to mind.

 

ZYD

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.7.2018 at 1:07 AM, Aetherous said:

I haven't read them yet, but I think these two books explore this topic:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Gates-Light-Occult-Reconstructed-ebook/dp/B00JTKGLZK/

https://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Paths-Light-Occult-Reclaimed-ebook/dp/B07C9TPRCF/

 

What I gather from reading the author's summaries on Amazon is that he deeply abhors the 'Christian' interpretation of the Kabbalah, which (according to him) served as the basis of the 'occult Kabbalah'. Huh? 

 

I have been reading about the Kabbalah (including its history) for decades, but I have never come across a distinct Christian interpretation as such! Also, it should be remembered that the Kabbalah has always been an occult science, right from its beginnings!

 

It's correct that the Kabbalah was re-interpreted by Christian neo-Platonists/Hermeticists like Pico della Mirandola and Johannes Reuchlin during the Renaissance. The result is most accurately referred to as the Hermetic (not Christian or occult) Kabbalah. And later attempts to superimpose the Tarot on top of the Tree of Life by French and English occultists of the 19th century should be seen as a further development of that.

 

Lest anybody thinks that the aforementioned author's aim was to explore the authentic original Jewish Kabbalah (in the way of Gershom Scholem), it's telling that - having refuted the abomination of the 'Christian' Kabbalah - he comes up with his own version of an 'occult' Kabbalah, including yet another attempt at syncretizing Kabbalah and Tarot (in his second book)! Which makes me wonder, is he even aware of how much Christian symbolism there is in Tarot itself?! Also, he explores the relationship of his 'corrected' Kabbalah to Magick - hey hey, Aleister Crowley says hello!

 

To me, all of this sounds a lot like somebody trying to sell his personal pet theory, trying hard to make it look different and profound and original. This is not to say that those books may not have some interesting ideas in them (how could I know, I haven't read them). But based on what the author shares in his summary, this is nothing more than another version of what has come before and been reiterated a number of times. Possibly, uncle Al would have applauded the author for cleansing the Kabbalah from anything Christian, though...

[Aetherous]

29 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

What I gather from reading the author's summaries on Amazon is that he deeply abhors the 'Christian' interpretation of the Kabbalah, which (according to him) served as the basis of the 'occult Kabbalah'. Huh? 

 

Yep. From what little I know, he's right. I also have to read his books, though, to discern more.
 

Quote

Kabbalah has always been an occult science

 

My understanding is that "occult" here refers to Western schools of thought (Golden Dawn etc)...as opposed to the source of Kabbalah, in Jewish culture.

 

Quote

It's correct that the Kabbalah was re-interpreted by Christian neo-Platonists/Hermeticists like Pico della Mirandola and Johannes Reuchlin during the Renaissance. The result is most accurately referred to as the Hermetic (not Christian or occult) Kabbalah.

 

You may just be saying the same thing he is here. Is there a kind of academic standard to use "Hermetic Kabbalah" as opposed to using other terminology?
 

Quote

is he even aware of how much Christian symbolism there is in Tarot itself?!

 

You think he's just anti-Christian? My impression was that he was trying to ascertain the truth of the Kabbalah by going to the sources of it, and then bringing greater accuracy to the modern practice of it.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Aetherous

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

Yep. From what little I know, he's right. I also have to read his books, though, to discern more.

 

Yes, it's hard to be definite about anything without even having looked into the books.

 

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

My understanding is that "occult" here refers to Western schools of thought (Golden Dawn etc)...as opposed to the source of Kabbalah, in Jewish culture.

 

That may indeed be what the author means, however, as the occult sciences of the Western tradition all go back to more ancient cultures especially of the Middle East, as does Kabbalah, I find aforesaid distinction rather confusing. Just bear in mind that one of the oldest and most influential Kabbalistic books, the Sepher Yetzirah, already refers to Astrology (i.e., its star signs and planets).

 

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

You may just be saying the same thing he is here. Is there a kind of academic standard to use "Hermetic Kabbalah" as opposed to using other terminology?

 

There is indeed something like an academic standard to distinguish 'Hermetic Kabbalah' from 'Jewish Kabbalah'. I am not sure what exactly 'Christian Kabbalah' is supposed to mean, although it goes without saying that most Renaissance Hermeticists were operating in and referring to a Christian context.

 

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

You think he's just anti-Christian? My impression was that he was trying to ascertain the truth of the Kabbalah by going to the sources of it, and then bringing greater accuracy to the modern practice of it.

 

I suppose it's hard for anybody to draw clear lines between Kabbalah and Christianity, even just considering how much Kabbalah is interconnected with the Bible (Old and New Testament). Mutual influences between Kabbalah and Christianity are not  a relatively modern European development. So I think the author may be trying to draw artificial lines, and his obvious closeness to Crowley may indeed hint at an anti-Christian agenda.