What do you do when the hexagram doesn't seem to apply?

[wandelaar]

Consider the following case:

 

You consult the I Ching about an upcoming event and the hexagram you get seems to give a clear warning about what could go wrong. But the way the event actually turns out is quite different. Do you then leave it at that? Or do you look for another meaning of the hexagram? Or do you perhaps consider the hexagram to apply to another situation or question than originally asked? 

 

[Lost in Translation]

Did the hexagram give any advice and did you follow it? 

[wandelaar]

I don't want to tell the details, but today something important was to be decided and some days ago (as an experiment) I consulted the I Ching online for advise. This was the result:

 

https://www.eclecticenergies.com/nederlands/itjing/consultatie?lns=986878

 

But today I did my best and all went well, and no unexpected special opportunity presented itself.

 

Actually my main interest in this topic is how experienced I Ching users deal with such cases.

[Lost in Translation]

Thank you for sharing.

 

Your reading (#3 transforming to #39) shows that right now is not a good time to start something by yourself. Rather it is a time to seek out the aid of others. The end result of this action remains difficult, but it's not impossible - it simply requires perseverance. #39 mentions seeking the "superior man". Typically this is the sage. It can be the sage within us all. Of course it can also mean someone in authority.

 

Absent any context I would say that as long as you are not "going it alone" but instead are seeking the help of others in this manner, and as long as you are seeking the help of the boss, or someone else in authority, then you are likely to achieve success. I wonder if this is actually what you have done and are doing?

 

[Michael Sternbach]

30 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I don't want to tell the details, but today something important was to be decided and some days ago (as an experiment) I consulted the I Ching online for advise. This was the result:

 

https://www.eclecticenergies.com/nederlands/itjing/consultatie?lns=986878

 

But today I did my best and all went well, and no unexpected special opportunity presented itself.

 

Actually my main interest in this topic is how experienced I Ching users deal with such cases.

 

Sorry, my Dutch is a little rusty... 

 

As far as online versions, my favourite one is:

 

http://divination.com/iching/lookup/

 

And here I don't read anything about a special opportunity presenting itself. The gist of the texts is a warning of obstacles and how to deal with them. Sounds like it might have to do with potential long-term consequences of the decision in question.

[wandelaar]

Everything was going well, but the decision that was taken today could have caused me a lot of trouble. Happily I was allowed to proceed as I was already doing. So I didn't even want to start anything new, the danger of the situation consisted in the opposite possibility that I would be forced to take another road with doubtful prospects. That's all I can say about it.

[Harmen]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Consider the following case:

 

You consult the I Ching about an upcoming event and the hexagram you get seems to give a clear warning about what could go wrong. But the way the event actually turns out is quite different. Do you then leave it at that? Or do you look for another meaning of the hexagram? Or do you perhaps consider the hexagram to apply to another situation or question than originally asked? 

 

 

This is one of the reasons why I don't try to predict the future or aspects of it. Too tricky. I once was able to pinpoint the location of a lost book. That is how far I am willing to take it.

 

Having said that, if you accept that the answer of the Yi always applies and that it can't be wrong than you might have to think about your interpretation. This reminds me of one of my students who called me yesterday because she did a consultation for a client and this client did not recognize anything that my student said. It turned out that the interpretation of the students was simply wrong - the question was 'what to do' but the student interpreted the answer of the Yi as a description of the current situation. That was not what was asked, hence the complete misunderstanding.

 

This is different from your situation of course, but it goes to show that the devil can be in the details: what did you ask and are you able to see the hexagram or its parts in the actual situation? In most cases it is a matter of perspective. Which is what makes predicting the future difficult with the Yi and why additional systems like Wenwang Gua were attached to it to facilitate that kind of use of the book.

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, Harmen said:

It turned out that the interpretation of the students was simply wrong - the question was 'what to do' but the student interpreted the answer of the Yi as a description of the current situation.

 

If you read the forward by Carl Jung in Wilhelm's book you'll see he mentions essentially the same thing, that one must interpret the response within the exact context as the question.Specific questions warrant a specific response. Vague questions yield vague responses. It is for this reason that I have begun thinking of the I Ching as a person to whom I am speaking and of whom I am asking advice. By framing the question in that manner I have found much better success. A secondary benefit is that I have begun forming a relationship with the I Ching, similar to the relationship that Christians speak of with Jesus. Ok, not exactly the same but... I'm rambling now.

[Harmen]

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Vague questions yield vague responses.

 

This is where I disagree. It is not the response that becomes vague but the interpretation of the user. A hexagram is more than just the answer to the question, as can be seen with yes/no questions which hardly ever receive yes or no as an answer. If it were like that you could just flip a coin. The hexagram is always right, but if you don't know what you want to know you will be like a 羝羊觸藩 - a ram that got stuck in the fence.

[wandelaar]

As I understood that in ancient times the I Ching was simply asked for advise on an upcoming event without asking any exactly formulated question, I didn't do so either. I just presented the upcoming event to the I Ching by holding it in my thoughts with the idea that the I Ching would then give me some advise about how to deal with it... 

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, Harmen said:

 

This is where I disagree. It is not the response that becomes vague but the interpretation of the user. A hexagram is more than just the answer to the question, as can be seen with yes/no questions which hardly ever receive yes or no as an answer. If it were like that you could just flip a coin. The hexagram is always right, but if you don't know what you want to know you will be like a 羝羊觸藩 - a ram that got stuck in the fence.

 

You are correct. I should have said "Vague questions yield vague interpretations." Thank you for clarifying this.

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

As I understood that in ancient times the I Ching was simply asked for advise on an upcoming event without asking any exactly formulated question, I didn't do so either.

 

Yes, that is true, or they phrased a wish: "would it that I become king". In my opinion the question is not really important. You always get what you need.

 

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

give me some advise about how to deal with it...

 

You asked 'how to deal with it'. Which is a different from 'what will happen' which you seem to imply in your initial post. What did you want to know? 'What will happen' or 'how should I deal with it'?

[Michael Sternbach]

I am aware of the advice found in some Yijing versions (e.g., Blofeld's) to consider every word of the answer in regards to the exact phrasing of the question. But that strikes me as an awful mental strain, blocking the intuitive approach that is required. IME, the Yijing often enough paints a picture of the overall situation, regardless of the exact question. So I prefer to avoid asking my question in an overly specific way in the first place.

 

Wandelaar, if you are sure that the issue you were inquiring about has been settled for good, even though what the Yijing seemingly addressed was a definite possibility, then maybe the (probable) future has been changed? Perhaps even as a consequence of your changing awareness regarding it, due to the reading?

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

The point is that the decision as it actually was taken today implies that essentially everything stays the same, which is precisely what I hoped for. I didn't ask the I Ching what would happen, I asked the I Ching for advise about what to do as regards the decision. I have to add that the decision partly depended on how I presented my case today.

 

Well - I guess this whole description has by now become quite oracular in itself.

 

But basically this topic is meant to be on what to do with hexagrams that don't seem to answer the questions asked.So maybe we could now focus on that?

Edited July 12, 2018 by wandelaar

[Harmen]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But basically this topic is meant to be on what to do with hexagrams that don't seem to answer the questions asked.So maybe we could now focus on that?

 

In my opinion the Yi always answers the question asked so when it seems as if it didn't it is best to ask your self "what am I missing or not seeing?" You can blame the Yi for not answering your question but that will not help you in any way. I'd say, look for aspects in the answer that might further your comprehension, and return to what you asked. If you want to know 'what to do'  then every element of the answer should point in that direction. Trigrams, lines etc. The Yi is more than text. 

[wandelaar]

https://translate.google.nl/#nl/en/Lijn 3%3A Dichtbij herten%2C maar zonder voorbereid te zijn. Overwegend om midden het bos in te gaan. De edele schijnt bijna niet te stoppen. Verder gaan is inadequaat. Een bijzondere gelegenheid doet zich voor%2C waar men echter niet op voorbereid is. Om hiervan gebruik te maken is het noodzakelijk zich diep in een onbekende situatie te begeven. Dit is niet zo'n goed idee%2C men dient de verleiding te weerstaan.

 

This is part prediction, part warning. But at least today nothing of the kind happened. Do you thinks all aspects of the hexagram's meaning always somehow apply?

Edited July 12, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

Here is the same line from Wilhelm:

 

Wilhelm/Baynes: Whoever hunts deer without the forester only loses his way in the forest. The superior man understands the signs of the time and prefers to desist. To go on brings humiliation.

 

As you can see, the meaning is different. Emphasis is on the forester, especially on needing his aid. That is important. If you add this element to the first changing line you get a clearer picture.

 

Wilhelm/Baynes: Hesitation and hindrance. It furthers one to remain persevering. It furthers one to appoint helpers.

 

http://www.jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/hex3.htm

[Harmen]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

https://translate.google.nl/#nl/en/Lijn 3%3A Dichtbij herten%2C maar zonder voorbereid te zijn. Overwegend om midden het bos in te gaan. De edele schijnt bijna niet te stoppen. Verder gaan is inadequaat. Een bijzondere gelegenheid doet zich voor%2C waar men echter niet op voorbereid is. Om hiervan gebruik te maken is het noodzakelijk zich diep in een onbekende situatie te begeven. Dit is niet zo'n goed idee%2C men dient de verleiding te weerstaan.

 

This is part prediction, part warning. But at least today nothing of the kind happened. Do you thinks all aspects of the hexagram's meaning always somehow apply?

 

In theory: yes, but in practice it is not always realistic to give relevant meaning to literally every aspect. You mainly work with that to which your attention is drawn.

 

About the text you quoted: several things are going on here. First, the second paragraph is the commentary/interpretation of the translator. That is NOT the text nor they answer of the Yi so you can skip that. Second, the translation is....weird. Third, the Chinese text 即鹿無虞。惟入于林中。君子幾不如舍。往吝。 can be read in several ways: as a prediction, but also as an advice, as a warning etc. 

 

Se also here https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/hexagram-3-line-3/

[rideforever]

Sometimes the I Ching answers your question, sometime it speaks directly to you because your real question is hidden.
Sometimes you are insincere and the I Ching does not answer.

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

Sometimes the I Ching answers your question, sometime it speaks directly to you because your real question is hidden.
Sometimes you are insincere and the I Ching does not answer.

 

1. The Yijing always answers your question. Otherwise it would be a stupid oracle. Imagine what would happen to a diviner at the Chinese emperor's court, when the king asked the oracle if he would win the war, and the diviner replied "let's talk about your grandmother." An oracle always answers the question. If you don't understand the answer: don't blame the oracle.

2. Even when you are insincere the Yi will answer your question. Whether this is to your advantage, especially on the long term,  depends on your own point of view. And that is not because of the Yi but simply because insincerity most of the time does not lead to anything good.

[Bindi]

It seems to me that if you have collected enough basically wise sentences, an appropriate answer may often be imagined, and if the answer doesn't fit it can always be blamed on the question or the interpreter. 

 

I can't imagine any direct association exists between random answers to any specific question beyond chance. 

[Harmen]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I can't imagine any direct association exists between random answers to any specific question beyond chance.

 

Exactly. But that doesn't mean that the answer cannot be made meaningful. The Western perspective often is 'it happened by chance and therefore does not have any relevant meaning.' The early Chinese point of view is more like 'it happened by chance and therefore has relevant meaning.'

 

It's a different perspective on the value of chance.

[rideforever]

When you are insincere and you ask a question .... how should the I Ching respond to you ?

 

Should it take your question at face value ?

No, because you are in a bad state and the I Ching tries to give you what you need, that is it's purpose, to help existence.

If you do not understand the answer it most likely means you are in a bad state and corruption is active within you.

Try to listen to what it says.

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

When you are insincere and you ask a question .... how should the I Ching respond to you ?

 

Should it take your question at face value ?

No, because you are in a bad state and the I Ching tries to give you what you need, that is it's purpose, to help existence.

If you do not understand the answer it most likely means you are in a bad state and corruption is active within you.

Try to listen to what it says.

 

It seems you are deciding for the book how and when it should answer you. You are attaching certain prerequisites or conditions to its value. I think a good oracle works best without humans predefining its framework.

[rideforever]

We can learn to understand how existence works because of the "as above so below level".

 

How does a father respond when his child is insincere ?

The father's role is to nourish his charges.