Dharmakaya / God?

[rocala]

Over time I have come across a few references to the idea of God being reconcilable with the Dharmakaya. I recall one was during a talk by a Quaker.

Any thoughts on the subject?

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, the descriptions of Dharmakaya surely have a lot in common with the conceptions of God, Dao etc. in other metaphysical systems.

 

I have always maintained that there is something like an objective metaphysical reality which underlies all legitimate systems, although perception/interpretation/emphasis varies according to cultures, religions, schools, individuals. To say otherwise is to state that one particular system is right, whereas another is essentially flawed, which, in my view, is the height of human folly.

 

However, you often need to look deep in order to identify the common denominators between them.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, rocala said:

Over time I have come across a few references to the idea of God being reconcilable with the Dharmakaya. I recall one was during a talk by a Quaker.

Any thoughts on the subject?

 

I think it is easier to draw the parallels with God and Emptiness itself than Dharmakaya.  The Dharamakaya is not a separate “thing”, but more an aspect of the “Buddha body”. To me, the crossover would go better with being an aspect of being a “son of God” and would be part of the “oneness with the father”, or embodying/realizing emptiness.

[rocala]

Hi thanks for replying

I have found a 2011 post on this forum wihich contains the following definition. I can see from this how people can make the connection. 

           

"The Dharmakaya completely transcends time and space but is also, at the same time, to be found in all things and within all sentient beings. It constitutes the fundamental essence of all existence and possesses, pre-eminently, the qualities of absolute wisdom, compassion and bliss. It is the principal aim of Mahayana Buddhism to ultimately attain, for oneself and others, blissful and eternal union with this reality - a state more commonly referred to as Nirvana.

 

In itself, the Dharmakaya remains unknowable and imperceptible to our ordinary human faculties of sense and cognition. One can only be made aware of it through prajna which is an intuitive power capable of seeing things as they are, undistorted by the influence of ignorance and the myriad passions that afflict us constantly."

              @Harmonious Emptiness

[Jeff]

If you are looking for more of those parallels, then take a look at the teachings of Jesus in the gospel of Thomas...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

Then read the Heart Sutra. If one realizes that Form = Motion, and Rest = Void/Emptiness, it becomes a little more clear...

[rocala]

Thanks  Jeff,  they are both on my rather lengthy reading list.

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, rocala said:

Thanks  Jeff,  they are both on my rather lengthy reading list.

 

Both are very short to read, but vastly deep in what they have the potential to convey.

[rex]

Perhaps the Western approach to God through  via negativa in texts such as the The Cloud of Unknowing has parallels with the Buddhist concept of Dharmakaya i.e. you can’t really say anything with any authority or pin it down, but as it says in the Heart Sutra, yet it can be experienced.

 

Here’s how some Buddhist teachers approach the question:

https://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html

http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_dharmakaya.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by rex
tpyo

[doc benway]

12 hours ago, rocala said:

Over time I have come across a few references to the idea of God being reconcilable with the Dharmakaya. I recall one was during a talk by a Quaker.

Any thoughts on the subject?

I can reconcile the two in my life and mind. I think it’s all a matter of our expectations and needs as conceptual beings.

[EmeraldHead]

What isthedharmmakaya in experience?

 

If it is the ultimatum or not then once you hold onto it clearly at once you will know. 

[rocala]

Thanks for the links . Interesting stuff @rex

[rex]

19 hours ago, rocala said:

Thanks for the links . Interesting stuff @rex

You're welcome!

[rideforever]

On 15/07/2018 at 6:22 PM, rex said:

you can’t really say anything with any authority

 

And what if you could say something about "it" ?   
Do you think that would help you ?   
If I tell you a nice story about God .... of what benefit is that to you ?
It is of Zero benefit.   
Talking like this is for people who don't practice and enjoy asking the wrong meaningless questions.

 

Can you talk about the summit of a mountain ?   Sure you can, if you wish to .... it overlooks the land, it's high free and has mighty fresh air.   Then you can talk a hell of a lot about how one gets there, the practice, inspiration, technology, realisation and surrender.

 

One has to have authority before one can say anything with authority.

Buddhists : oh dear we can't say anything, there is nothing except emptiness, nothing happened and nobody was there, nobody can teach and nothing can be .... oh please do shut up.   You are so depressed.

Okay I am being rude sorry.   It's true though, Buddha himself was not depressed, he was practical and worked and then he arrived.

Edited July 18, 2018 by rideforever

[rex]

 

17 hours ago, rideforever said:

Okay I am being rude sorry. 

 

Reading the other posts you made in this subforum in the space of about an hour, you were more like a rowdy drunk crashing through a quiet neighbourhood.

[rideforever]

Yesterday I put a lot of material down in several forums, it's been on my mind for a few years and I wanted to put them somewhere on the internet ... that's why I joined this forum.
It is quite strenuous to write it all out, there was a lot of things, doesn't always come out smoothly.
Certainly I expect people who enjoy churning concepts to death to not appreciate being disturbed.
A few years ago I wanted answers, couldn't find any, and I would have appreciated the explanations I laid out.
They were not discovered easily.

Edited July 19, 2018 by rideforever

[rex]

On 19/07/2018 at 10:43 AM, rideforever said:

Yesterday I put a lot of material down in several forums, it's been on my mind for a few years and I wanted to put them somewhere on the internet ... that's why I joined this forum.
It is quite strenuous to write it all out, there was a lot of things, doesn't always come out smoothly.
Certainly I expect people who enjoy churning concepts to death to not appreciate being disturbed.
A few years ago I wanted answers, couldn't find any, and I would have appreciated the explanations I laid out.
They were not discovered easily.

Funnily enough I don’t enjoy churning concepts to death, especially abstruse ones where the intellect will only take one so far and  it may involve years of study, practice and reflection to begin to realise them on an experiential level. While keeping an awareness of  difficult ideas, I focus on what I can understand and don’t let uncertainty and confusion get in the way of practice -  it’s a graduated path.

 

I can relate to not having access to answers and explanations, it can be tough. From the answers you found it appears that Buddhism didn’t provide you with expanations that fitted your experience, though conversely others who had similar questions may have found theirs in Buddhism. In any event sharing your experience is generous and one of the things this forum is all about.

[rideforever]

34 minutes ago, rex said:

 

Hello.  I was always and still am inspired by the path of Siddharta Gautama, it is a beautiful and meaningful story and I remember it often.  I have spent a lot of time on Buddhist retreats, and studying their philosophy and practice, but today I understand it differently from many, as I understand many things differently from others.   I understand "what it is".
I remember being at the very excellent International Meditation Centre in Chippenham (UK), and in the evening a story from a large book of traditional stories was read out ... it was an opportunity to relax and listen after a whole day of Shamatha practice.  This story was about Buddha laughing when he saw a couple who had destroyed themselves through drinking.  My ears perked up - why did he laugh ?  Alcoholism is not funny.   I spoke with the teacher about it in his study the next day, I said "why ?".   At first the teacher didn't understand what I was talking about ... apparently no student had ever approached him to clarify a story that was read out.
On a subsequent retreat I had a confrontation with the same teacher about whether I should "think" about Vipassana or just do it.  I left that retreat on day 2.   But the question was very important, relating to the correct use of intelligence and also Sila, finally I have found answers.
I have confronted quite a few people, sometimes publicly, sometimes making a fool of myself.
And finally I found the answers I needed.
Likewise Buddha also left situation after situation, teacher after teacher, until he found answers.   He worked, he exhausted himself with work, he struggled with the Demons of Mara, and he touched the Earth.   That is Buddhism to me.
Gurdjieff was a on a train once with a student and absolutely exploded at the train conductor creating a huge confrontation with passengers and staff all rushing into the carriage to break it up.  A second later he was total calm and invited them all to leave, then he sat down calmly with his student as if nothing had happened.   A lesson.
We are all so goddam afraid aren't we.
But the whole show is really for us, we are supported in every conceivable way, the air, gravity, the sun, our hearts ... it's all for us.
 

[Miroku]

17 hours ago, rideforever said:

Hello.  I was always and still am inspired by the path of Siddharta Gautama, it is a beautiful and meaningful story and I remember it often.  I have spent a lot of time on Buddhist retreats, and studying their philosophy and practice, but today I understand it differently from many, as I understand many things differently from others.   I understand "what it is".
I remember being at the very excellent International Meditation Centre in Chippenham (UK), and in the evening a story from a large book of traditional stories was read out ... it was an opportunity to relax and listen after a whole day of Shamatha practice.  This story was about Buddha laughing when he saw a couple who had destroyed themselves through drinking.  My ears perked up - why did he laugh ?  Alcoholism is not funny.   I spoke with the teacher about it in his study the next day, I said "why ?".   At first the teacher didn't understand what I was talking about ... apparently no student had ever approached him to clarify a story that was read out.
On a subsequent retreat I had a confrontation with the same teacher about whether I should "think" about Vipassana or just do it.  I left that retreat on day 2.   But the question was very important, relating to the correct use of intelligence and also Sila, finally I have found answers.
I have confronted quite a few people, sometimes publicly, sometimes making a fool of myself.
And finally I found the answers I needed.
Likewise Buddha also left situation after situation, teacher after teacher, until he found answers.   He worked, he exhausted himself with work, he struggled with the Demons of Mara, and he touched the Earth.   That is Buddhism to me.
Gurdjieff was a on a train once with a student and absolutely exploded at the train conductor creating a huge confrontation with passengers and staff all rushing into the carriage to break it up.  A second later he was total calm and invited them all to leave, then he sat down calmly with his student as if nothing had happened.   A lesson.
We are all so goddam afraid aren't we.
But the whole show is really for us, we are supported in every conceivable way, the air, gravity, the sun, our hearts ... it's all for us.
 

Meh

[rideforever]

16 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Meh

 

¯\_(⊙︿⊙)_/¯

[ilumairen]

On 7/18/2018 at 12:25 PM, rideforever said:

Buddhists : oh dear we can't say anything, there is nothing except emptiness, nothing happened and nobody was there, nobody can teach and nothing can be .... oh please do shut up.   You are so depressed.
 

 

Nihilism can easily lead to depression..

 

Have you actually met people who talk like this? 

 

(Curiosity)

[Michael Sternbach]

The Buddhist temples I visited were joyful places. Never felt that way in a church.

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

"There is suffering".  The First Noble Truth.

 

But is there ?  That's one hell of an assumption to lay as your foundation rock. 
"Things are bad".   But are they ?   
Why not these alternative First Noble Truths :

#1- Fuck, I Exist
#1- I Am, I Can, I Love, I Hope
#1- Yeah, I had a really shit day today so I am interested in the meaning of life

 

And then there is this Dependent Arising 12 links 6 skandhas.   The analysis of the state of man.   
But ... which man ?
It is like decoding the human genome DNA.
But .... which man have you decoded, my DNA is not that DNA.
Do you know that different men are different inside ???

Certainly a realised being has a different inner state than an ordinary man.
But ... the Buddhists never talk about who's state they find to be Arising Dependently, because they don't understand that there is a difference between an ordinary man monkey and a realised being.
And so the entire conversation, sounding so erudite, having so many numbers in it, so high - minded .... is actually very silly, and people lap it up and repeat all the nonsense to each other.  

 

If you are empty, what will you do, stare at your navel ?  Or fill yourself, explore yourself, bring something into being.  Will to Be.   Or will you shrivel up with a book that reinforces your hopeless sense of nothingness.   If you wish to Be then you can Be.
 

But anyway, I have enjoyed my experiences with Buddhists and have gained from them, mostly the format of the practices are relatively immune to whatever nonsense people are saying.
 

It is sad though that a man who arrives at a centre looking for help whether it is a Buddhist centre or a medical centre .... will receive a very low level of help, and possibly something far worse; being told that you are empty, is utterly destructive and false.
But that is the sadness of human society.

May people be blessed to be met one day with love, hope, and intelligence.

[ilumairen]

On 7/19/2018 at 5:43 AM, rideforever said:

Yesterday I put a lot of material down in several forums, it's been on my mind for a few years and I wanted to put them somewhere on the internet ... that's why I joined this forum.

 

There is an option of starting a ppd here. 

 

Then you'd be able to put the understandings and answers you've found in one place, and still share.

[rideforever]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

It's done !  
If there is a discussion at hand and I feel I can contribute something then I shall, then hopefully people would be interested, and I could express the ideas clearly and without frustration or agenda and really communicate, that would be good, that is my personal goal.
Today I was thinking that people are where they are and need to grow from where they are ... new knowledge must be connected to the old, otherwise there is no bridge.   This is one of the reasons that just expressing something to everyone doesn't really do much.   It's not part of where they are at, what they are interested in, or what they can bridge.
The old adage about leading a horse to water .... it's quite violent to think that you can dump your ideas on people and they will lap it up ... even if they are true ....growth is more sensitive and we have to respect that people are moving in the direction that they are moving, and it may be very different from your own.   
Can you contribute to somebody where they are at ?  Maybe, maybe not.
Inspiration and love is more easy to contribute than other things.

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

 

"There is suffering".  The First Noble Truth.

 

But is there ?  That's one hell of an assumption to lay as your foundation rock. 
"Things are bad".   But are they ?   
Why not these alternative First Noble Truths :

#1- Fuck, I Exist
#1- I Am, I Can, I Love, I Hope
#1- Yeah, I had a really shit day today so I am interested in the meaning of life

 

And then there is this Dependent Arising 12 links 6 skandhas.   The analysis of the state of man.   
But ... which man ?
It is like decoding the human genome DNA.
But .... which man have you decoded, my DNA is not that DNA.
Do you know that different men are different inside ???

Certainly a realised being has a different inner state than an ordinary man.
But ... the Buddhists never talk about who's state they find to be Arising Dependently, because they don't understand that there is a difference between an ordinary man monkey and a realised being.
And so the entire conversation, sounding so erudite, having so many numbers in it, so high - minded .... is actually very silly, and people lap it up and repeat all the nonsense to each other.  

 

If you are empty, what will you do, stare at your navel ?  Or fill yourself, explore yourself, bring something into being.  Will to Be.   Or will you shrivel up with a book that reinforces your hopeless sense of nothingness.   If you wish to Be then you can Be.
 

But anyway, I have enjoyed my experiences with Buddhists and have gained from them, mostly the format of the practices are relatively immune to whatever nonsense people are saying.
 

It is sad though that a man who arrives at a centre looking for help whether it is a Buddhist centre or a medical centre .... will receive a very low level of help, and possibly something far worse; being told that you are empty, is utterly destructive and false.
But that is the sadness of human society.

May people be blessed to be met one day with love, hope, and intelligence.

 

Thank you for the reply. 

 

I have no experience with Buddhist centers, and (although I do some Bon practices) I am not Buddhist. Therefore what I am comfortable sharing in responce is limited. 

 

I think the concept of emptiness can be easily misunderstood, and people can be well intended and still give pointers and advice that can lead individuals in certain situations to feel isolated and dejected.

 

My experience with other Bon practioners and some Buddhists is exactly what you've wished for at the end of this post - full of love, hope, and intelligence. 

 

Much warmth to you.