Regret, guilt and shame

[Papayapple]

I noticed today that it is a lot easier to deal with most negative emotions in comparison to these particular ones. Or maybe these just tend to last longer?

Pain(emotional or mental) can be significantly softened by imagining someone being sorry for you. You can even pity yourself("oh I'm so unfortunate! I deserve compassion"), same for depression. Not a fix, you could say, but works for most of us well enough to prevent immediate breakdowns.

Loss and grief: well you can at least be sure that it will pass gradually and not ever come back as strongly and again, people would pat you in the back.

And so on.
 

But those three can be a lot more tricky. Especially the last one. Regret- you can tell yourself you will try to be better next time, guilt- you can sort of justify your actions and stances, but there's no guarantee people are going to comfort you(depends what is it that you did and how forgiving your peers are).
And shame? Well nothing is gonna work haha! It comes again and again, years after years and years after the event. Shit I still sometimes feel shameful about things I did in kindergarden! To the point of spitting curse words suddenly and uncontrollably.  

[Marblehead]

No worries about the past.  It's written in stone.  But yes, when we become aware that we have been acting like an ass we can pay more attention to our thoughts, words and deeds.

 

I do not offer pity to anyone.  I won't even offer sympathy if they have not taken action they are capable of to better their situation.

 

Physical pain is real.  Can't ignore that.  It's our body telling us something is wrong.

 

Emotional and mental pain is a choice for most of us.  And yes, expressing it to others is just a means of trying to find pity and/or sympathy.  Often times it is setting a person up so that the person expressing pain can take advantage of the compassionate ones.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

I learned long ago to know myself morally and to be true to my myself. I cannot say what I will know tomorrow. I cannot say who I will be tomorrow, and I certainly cannot say what I will do tomorrow. But, I know what I know today. I know who I am today, and I know what I do today. As long as my actions today adhere to my morality today then I never need to feel guilt, regret or shame. It's only when you do not know yourself, or you act in a way that you know is wrong that there is room for these emotions to enter.

[rene]

20 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I learned long ago to know myself morally and to be true to my myself. I cannot say what I will know tomorrow. I cannot say who I will be tomorrow, and I certainly cannot say what I will do tomorrow. But, I know what I know today. I know who I am today, and I know what I do today. As long as my actions today adhere to my morality today then I never need to feel guilt, regret or shame. It's only when you do not know yourself, or you act in a way that you know is wrong that there is room for these emotions to enter.

 

My true wish for you, friend, is that you never find yourself in a position where you know what needs to be done, and you ache to do it,  but you cannot do it because of your own inability. May you never have to endure the angst, whenever memories of that past event bubble up, of: I should have found a way...  

 

Forgiving others is easy; forgiving one's self is a different matter.

Especially when I should have found a way.

 

[3bob]

with "God" nothing is impossible...so never believe or think there is not help for whatever the issue may be no matter how difficult.

[Lost in Translation]

56 minutes ago, rene said:

May you never have to endure the angst, whenever memories of that past event bubble up, of: I should have found a way...  

 

Thank you. Such things are beyond our control. I, too, have experienced my own human frailty. I know what it is like to know what I should do yet lack the courage to do it. That is a difficult place to be. This is all part of living. God/Tao/Life/Whatever has a way of grinding away our pointy edges and humbling us. It's less painful to submit than resist, but we love to do it our own way. Yes, we do.

[rideforever]

I have worked with these for many years.   
The technique you describe is similar to "Feeding Your Demons" where you feel what is lacking (love, stability, innocence) and you bring that energy into you to heal the rift.   Another important technique is simply to let it come and turn towards it, allow regret to flow inside you, let it be you, let it happen, let it all happen, do not hide from the rain of the feelings.
And that's all good.
Recently I started learning about A Course In Miracles and it has given me a very different vision of society (shame comes from interaction with others so it is hard to fix on your own) .... and it is only through this new vision and understanding, that I believe I will be free of shame.   Because our society exists with a certain underlying vision of life that is not fixable.   But through ACIM, I have discovered a totally different vision, which brings shame to an end.   Shame is actually part of the underlying vision of society as it exists today. 

[dwai]

18 hours ago, Papayapple said:

I noticed today that it is a lot easier to deal with most negative emotions in comparison to these particular ones. Or maybe these just tend to last longer?

Pain(emotional or mental) can be significantly softened by imagining someone being sorry for you. You can even pity yourself("oh I'm so unfortunate! I deserve compassion"), same for depression. Not a fix, you could say, but works for most of us well enough to prevent immediate breakdowns.

Loss and grief: well you can at least be sure that it will pass gradually and not ever come back as strongly and again, people would pat you in the back.

And so on.
 

But those three can be a lot more tricky. Especially the last one. Regret- you can tell yourself you will try to be better next time, guilt- you can sort of justify your actions and stances, but there's no guarantee people are going to comfort you(depends what is it that you did and how forgiving your peers are).
And shame? Well nothing is gonna work haha! It comes again and again, years after years and years after the event. Shit I still sometimes feel shameful about things I did in kindergarden! To the point of spitting curse words suddenly and uncontrollably.  

These three emotions are a result of fear. Fear is a result of ignorance of our true nature. 

We think we are the personality, in the body and with a mind that thinks thoughts (some are good, many are dark  and some are even "evil"). Sometimes we act on those thoughts...a carelessly uttered word that is hurtful, some action driven by a dark thought, and so on.

 

We are afraid of the consequences of actions, and feel guilty because we hold a self-image that is perfect, and can do no wrong. When things transpire that are contrary to that self-image, we feel shame (some word or action performed or not performed, something that "violates" some idea of the "right way" to be, that we hold). We feel anger/self-loathing towards our personality (which we mistake for our self), when things chronically go contrary to the self-image being maintained. 

 

All of that can and should be dropped. For that we need the light of knowledge of our Self. What we are is not what we can observe or experience. We are really the silent witness to this tragicomic drama called "life". 

[3bob]

which also brings up the unanswerable question of why, and can we be so sure how the silent witness sees things?  (as defined by mind)

[Starjumper]

Feeling remorse is a good thing,  it is one of the main ways that you grow along the spiritual path.  Feeling remorse means you have a conscience.  Feeling remorse is an essential part of learning to play the game of ethics, virtue.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

which also brings up the unanswerable question of why, and can we be so sure how the silent witness sees things?  (as defined by mind)

Only way to know the answer to this is to do so directly, experientially. It is not an intellectual topic.

[3bob]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

Only way to know the answer to this is to do so directly, experientially. It is not an intellectual topic.

 

right the Self knows the Self...btw your most recent post is  contradicting your earlier sentence regarding "experience" although I think I get your drift.

 

(are posts numbered somewhere like they once were?)

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

right the Self knows the Self...btw your most recent post is  contradicting your earlier sentence regarding "experience" although I think I get your drift.

 

(are posts numbered somewhere like they once were?)

There are two types of experience (anubhava). Paroksha and aparoksha. One is subject-object (paroksha). The other is not, but rather Direct knowing (aparoksha)

 

The mind is reflected light. The Self is Light itself. When the mind knows, it is paroksha. The Self is Aparoksha.

 

This article does an excellent job of explaining --

 

https://www.advaita-vision.org/seven-stages-of-chidabhasa/

Edited July 16, 2018 by dwai

[3bob]

sounds informative...thanks.  Btw, the Chandogya Upanishad states that Prana (first and all prana or light) "springs" from the Self thus it does not directly equate Self with light.  (and neither is that which is "beyond categories" (aka the Self) equated with light per many schools.

Edited July 16, 2018 by 3bob

[Lost in Translation]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Feeling remorse is a good thing,  it is one of the main ways that you grow along the spiritual path.  Feeling remorse means you have a conscience.  Feeling remorse is an essential part of learning to play the game of ethics, virtue.

 

This is a very good observation. It takes maturity to feel remorse. It takes wisdom to accept one's role as both victim and oppressor. This subject would make a good thread in its own right. Thank you for mentioning this.

[Starjumper]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

This is a very good observation. It takes maturity to feel remorse. It takes wisdom to accept one's role as both victim and oppressor. This subject would make a good thread in its own right. Thank you for mentioning this.

 

Hmm, OK, I thought this thread was about that, but on closer observation it appears to be a bunch of Buddhists seriously discussing the self, which does not exist.  YAhahaha.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Starjumper

[Lost in Translation]

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Hmm, OK, I thought this thread was about that, but on closer observation it appears to be a bunch of Buddhists seriously discussing the self, which does not exist.  YAhahaha.

 

Well, I guess it's kinda sorta about that.  In all seriousness I thought this thread was about coping with / getting over these emotions, not understanding the value of these emotions themselves. Although, now that you mention it - being mindful [Buddhist jab!] of these emotions and placing them in proper context gives negative emotions both meaning and helps one to cope with them.

[dwai]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

sounds informative...thanks.  Btw, the Chandogya Upanishad states that Prana (first and all prana or light) "springs" from the Self thus it does not directly equate Self with light.  (and neither is that which is "beyond categories" (aka the Self) equated with light per many schools.

If you take Self as Brahman, then Nirguna Brahman is without qualities totally. Saguna Brahman is the Light.

[3bob]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you take Self as Brahman, then Nirguna Brahman is without qualities totally. Saguna Brahman is the Light.

 

Right, just checking to see if we are on the same page with meaning about some of these terms.   (being that you did not make the distinction above a few posts earlier)

 

btw, even saying "without qualities" has some pitfalls to it imo...along with "beyond categories", thus I happen to find the Taoist saying of "Mystery of mysteries" to also be very useful. 

 

[3bob]

back to the OP, the factors mentioned can lead to crippling depression for many of us  that are not easy to overcome, then  pour dangerous mind altering drugs,  alcohol abuse and other robbers of the vital forces into the psychological mix and it be a very long and hard crawl back to a healthy life.

Edited July 17, 2018 by 3bob

[dwai]

53 minutes ago, 3bob said:

back to the OP, the factors mentioned can lead to crippling depression for many of us  that are not easy to overcome, then  pour dangerous mind altering drugs,  alcohol abuse and other robbers of the vital forces into the psychological mix and it be a very long and hard crawl back to a healthy life.

Been there, done that (sans the mind altering drugs). I spent about 5-6 years in a self-judgmental state almost constantly, because the contents of my mind became so apparent. Patterns of behavior and thought which were subconscious came to "light". It was difficult to look people in the eye because of what was going on in my mind. 

 

The bad news is that it is very debilitating, as most of us do concede. The good news is that if you are aware of this regret-guilt-shame-self-loathing cycle, that means you are starting to become aware of the subconscious parts of your mind. The next step is to realize that you are not your mind. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

I suffered from depression for many years. It was terrible. It took all my will just to get up in the morning. Ultimately I broke the cycle when I found some of my old baby pictures. I hung them on the wall of my apartment where I would easily see them. Every day I imagined the kind of life that I would want that child to have. I imagined all the ways that I would want that child to be happy, to love and be loved. Every day I would remind myself that I was that child, and that I was the only person in the world who could grant my wish for that child to be happy. Over time I felt my anger towards myself softening. I felt my hatred of myself abating. How could I hold anger towards a child? How could I hate a child. especially when that child was me?

 

Eventually my anger and hatred went away. I began to meditate in earnest. Life turned around. It was very soon after this that I met my wife. You never know what life holds for you. Be kind to yourself. Learn to see the child within and to care for that child. This helps, at least it helped me.

[3bob]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I suffered from depression for many years. It was terrible. It took all my will just to get up in the morning. Ultimately I broke the cycle when I found some of my old baby pictures. I hung them on the wall of my apartment where I would easily see them. Every day I imagined the kind of life that I would want that child to have. I imagined all the ways that I would want that child to be happy, to love and be loved. Every day I would remind myself that I was that child, and that I was the only person in the world who could grant my wish for that child to be happy. Over time I felt my anger towards myself softening. I felt my hatred of myself abating. How could I hold anger towards a child? How could I hate a child. especially when that child was me?

 

Eventually my anger and hatred went away. I began to meditate in earnest. Life turned around. It was very soon after this that I met my wife. You never know what life holds for you. Be kind to yourself. Learn to see the child within and to care for that child. This helps, at least it helped me.

 

Excellent witness...

[Yinja]

On 16.7.2018 at 12:24 AM, Papayapple said:

Shit I still sometimes feel shameful about things I did in kindergarden! To the point of spitting curse words suddenly and uncontrollably.  

 

Hahhaa I do the same sometimes! 

My approach to shame(and all other emotions really) is to be shy as your body suggests to you..this means letting your cheeks get blushed and abit sour and maybe gaze down abit. you will see that when you are willing to do so (to not resist) it wont be such a big deal anymore and shame will have a very different meaning. 

I suspect that what alot of people call shame is actually the resistent to it

 

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Yinja said:

I suspect that what alot of people call shame is actually the resistent to it

Good point.  Refusal to admit that we messed up.