Lost in Translation Posted July 18, 2018 Ta Chuan / The Great Treatise CHAPTER VI. On the Nature of the Book of Changes in General 1. The Master said: The Creative and the Receptive are indeed the gateway to the Changes. The Creative is the representative of the light things and the Receptive of dark things. In that the natures of the dark and the light are joined, the firm and the yielding receive form. Thus do the relationships of heaven and earth take shape, and we enter into relation with the nature of the light of the gods. (Wilhelm/Baynes, The I Ching, 1950 Bollingen Foundation, Inc. pps. 343-344) So much good stuff is packed into this single paragraph. I don't know where to begin. Wilhelm gives his own interpretation, which is quite good. One item that I don't see Wilhelm comment upon specifically is the wording light things and dark things. I find it odd that there are things with the quality of light and dark. Light and dark are not things in themselves. It's not The Light or The Dark, rather it is something else to which light and dark are attributes or descriptors. This harkens back to DDJ chapter one where Lao Tsu says "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name." (Feng/English, Tao Te Ching, 1972 Vintage Books) In DDJ Tao is also a descriptor. It's not the thing itself but rather a placeholder for the thing that has no name. This is basic stuff but easy to overlook and easier to forget. 4 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted July 18, 2018 The Tai chi symbol is starkly black and white, which could be synonymous with dark and light. To inner sight black is the realm of the unconscious inward looking mind and white is associated with outward looking conscious awareness. Dark and light might be the attributes that best describe this polarity of conscious and unconscious in terms that our minds can understand. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 18, 2018 Yeah, I see here Yin and Yang being reified. Nothing really wrong with that, I suppose. Pretty much we need to have something real in order to talk about it. Black - Yin; white -Yang Creative - Yang; Receptive - Yin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marblehead said: Pretty much we need to have something real in order to talk about it. Hi Dada-da, The animals, birds, bees... know it is day or night. Some flowers in my garden fold up when the evening approaches. Real enough? On 6/24/2018 at 8:11 AM, dawei said: Squares and corners spoken are not the eternalness [of squares and corners]. - LimA Edited July 18, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Limahong said: Hi Dada-da, The animals, birds, bees... know it is day or night. Some flowers in my garden fold up when the evening approaches. Real enough? - LimA Yes, all those are real enough. As long as it's something in the Manifest we can talk about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmen Posted July 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: One item that I don't see Wilhelm comment upon specifically is the wording light things and dark things. I find it odd that there are things with the quality of light and dark. 乾.陽物也.坤.陰物也. Qian is yang things. Kun is yin things. As you see the text does not talk about 'light' or 'dark' (which are just two aspects of yin and yang.) Wu 物 can refer to every (living) thing. So what the text might mean is that Qian is everything that is yang by nature whereas Kun is everything that is yin by nature. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted July 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, Harmen said: 乾.陽物也.坤.陰物也. Qian is yang things. Kun is yin things. As you see the text does not talk about 'light' or 'dark' (which are just two aspects of yin and yang.) Wu 物 can refer to every (living) thing. So what the text might mean is that Qian is everything that is yang by nature whereas Kun is everything that is yin by nature. Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmen Posted July 18, 2018 34 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said: Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things? I'm not sure if they must be applied only to things. But yes, I think yin and yang are qualities. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, Harmen said: I'm not sure if they must be applied only to things. But yes, I think yin and yang are qualities. Hi Harmen, 1 hour ago, Marblehead said: As long as it's something in the Manifest we can talk about it. - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted July 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Harmen said: I'm not sure if they must be applied only to things. But yes, I think yin and yang are qualities. This means that yin and yang are adjectives, possibly adverbs, and not nouns. When we speak of "yin energy" for example this is not "energy of yin", but rather "energy with a yin quality". Frankly, this is revolutionary. It changes my entire outlook on the subject. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmen Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said: This means that yin and yang are adjectives, possibly adverbs, and not nouns. When we speak of "yin energy" for example this is not "energy of yin", but rather "energy with a yin quality". Frankly, this is revolutionary. It changes my entire outlook on the subject. This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative: In this case grey would be yang and black would be yin. But here grey would be yin and white would be yang. Although there are no absolute yin or yang 物, I think. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things? 2 hours ago, Harmen said: I'm not sure if they must be applied only to things. But yes, I think yin and yang are qualities. 26 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said: This means that yin and yang are adjectives, possibly adverbs, and not nouns. When we speak of "yin energy" for example this is not "energy of yin", but rather "energy with a yin quality". Frankly, this is revolutionary. It changes my entire outlook on the subject. (bold mine) 12 minutes ago, Harmen said: This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative: In this case grey would be yang and black would be yin. But here grey would be yin and white would be yang. Although there are no absolute yin or yang 物, I think. Precisely, gentlemen, and kinda puts a new light on all the needless debates. Also LiT - the Ta Chuan you have is wonderful. I had it years ago (no longer do) and much comes through it in the same way much comes through the TTC. Just sayin. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 18, 2018 21 minutes ago, Harmen said: This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative: In this case grey would be yang and black would be yin. But here grey would be yin and white would be yang. Although there are no absolute yin or yang 物, I think. Nice visual for how 'grey' is both at the same time; and perceived as one or the other, depending on context. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted July 18, 2018 This also explains how a single event can be both good and bad. Found a new horse? Good, maybe... Fell of the new horse and broke your leg? Bad, maybe... Weren't conscripted into the army because your leg was broke? Good, maybe... See what I just did? I tied the I Ching to Chuang Tzu. Ninja skills! 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things? Hi Lost in Translation, How about the Sun and Moon...? - LimA Edited July 18, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Limahong said: Hi Lost in Translation, How about the Sun and Moon...? - LimA Sun would be Yin-ish while it is naturally diminishing over time - Moon would be Yang-ish to the little asteroids crashing into it! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said: This means that yin and yang are adjectives, possibly adverbs, and not nouns. Hi Lost in Translation, Are the sun and moon not nouns...? - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Harmen said: This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative... (1) Hi Harmen, The positions of the sun and moon are relative... - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) YinYang are not "things". Tao is not a thing. The Wu in Wu Xing are not even actually specific "things". As things appear, they HAVE YinYang - they HAVE polarity - an Up/Down, Left/Right, Begin/End, etc. When "One" appears, it HAS the 4 divisions of YinYang the instant it manifests. Movement between the poles of any polarity is "Qi". Movement/Stasis is a primary YinYang polarity, and explains Light, for example. Because Light is vibration, Movement - Yang. Dark is the absence of that Movement - Yin. So even "Dark" is not a "thing". -VonKrankenhaus Edited July 18, 2018 by vonkrankenhaus 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Harmen said: This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative... (2) Hi Harmen, I am an absolute male. But I cannot live without my girlfriend. Whatever she arrives late on our dates, I will whistle - Yinny come lately... - LimA 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted July 18, 2018 YinYang is "Polarity". Looking at the TaiJi we can see that the manifested universe doesn't begin with the Sun. And we can know the Chinese idea of "Heaven/Man/Earth" to see where we fit in what's going on. The most primary polarity is Movement/Stasis and shows the appearance of the "One", which can also be any "thing". Any "thing", immediately upon appearing, HAS polarity - an Up/Down, Begin/End, and so on. Movement is vibration, movement between the poles of a polarity. Light is such a movement. Dark is the absence of that movement - like Stasis is the overall absence of "any" movement. We see polarity inherently. We are born from total darkness into a half light/half dark world. That's polarity grasped in a very primal way. Further, we see the source of that light is moving and we see the cycle of Day/Night. If we stand looking at the Sun moving for a day, we have the experience Fu Hsi had in creating the 8 Trigrams that show the cycle of YinYang that is the basis of the TaiJiTu and also Wu Xing. That's how the Sun is involved in YinYang in a nutshell. But YinYang works anywhere there is "something", so it works outside of this solar system for sure. YinYang is just the study of Polarity and the Movement between the poles of a polarity, which is what "Qi" is. Movement between the poles of a polarity is what we call "energy". All energy is polarity and movement. -VonKrankenhaus 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted July 18, 2018 54 minutes ago, Limahong said: 4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things? Hi Lost in Translation, How about the Sun and Moon...? What about them? Are you implying that the sun is identical to yang and the moon is identical to yin? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Harmen said: Although there are no absolute yin or yang 物, I think. Hi Harmen, Yinny and I are absolute yin and yang. We are very sure - we don't have to think. We absolutely need each other for... - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmen Posted July 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: The Wu in Wu Xing are not even actually specific "things". Wuxing 五行 is another concept (and another wu, the wu of 'five'.) 19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: As things appear, they HAVE YinYang - they HAVE polarity - an Up/Down, Left/Right, Begin/End, etc. Hmmm... I'm not sure if they 'have' it. After all, it is all relative and depends on the point of view. Currently I am sitting on my chair, not moving. And yet I am moving, because the Earth is moving (go away FlatEarthers.) So I am moving not-moving. 15 minutes ago, Limahong said: I am an absolute male. What is 'an absolute male'? Both sexes have oestrogen as well as testosterone in their bodies... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmen Posted July 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Limahong said: Yinny and I are absolute yin and yang. Personally I don't believe something like 'absolute yin and yang' exists. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
