Are the Daoists absolutely sure that qi flows down the ren mai, and up the du mai?

[Phoenix3]

For me, this is a really important point, as so much understanding about traditional chinese medicine, qigong, etc is dependant on the assumption that qi flows down the ren mai and goes up the du mai in healthy people. It’s what separates Daoist thought from Dharmic thought, where the two main channels (the ida and pingala nadis) both go up to the head.

 

Something about the Daoist/traditional chinese model just doesn’t seem right to me, but I can’t figure out what. Though i’m no expert and I don’t know much at all about either subject to be honest.

 

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding or mistranslation somewhere? Are the Daoists absolutely sure that qi flows up the du mai, and down the ren mai (I know they say that qi can sometimes flow up the ren mai or down the du mai in unhealthy people, but i’m not talking about that)?

 

—————

For clarity:

 

So if the ida and pingala channels, and ren and du channels are different, we got the ida channel, pingala channel and du channel sending qi to the head, and only the ren channel removing qi from the head.

 

Either the ren channel is huge or there would be a lot of congestion in the head, no?

Edited July 19, 2018 by Phoenix3
Additional information

[EmeraldHead]

Know anything that is 'wrong' from them?

[joeblast]

 

 

 

[idquest]

The MCO circulation is a prerequisite for the opening of the central channel. The central channel is a big deal.

 

If you want to compare ida & pingala, you should compare them to the central channel, not to the MCO.

 

If you have feeling that Buddhist teaching resonates with you more, follow your intuition. But making intellectual judgement based on books that you don't really understand would be unwarranted. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by idquest
edited for clarity

[MIchael80]

21 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

For me, this is a really important point, as so much understanding about traditional chinese medicine, qigong, etc is dependant on the assumption that qi flows down the ren mai and goes up the du mai in healthy people. It’s what separates Daoist thought from Dharmic thought, where the two main channels (the ida and pingala nadis) both go up to the head.

 

Something about the Daoist/traditional chinese model just doesn’t seem right to me, but I can’t figure out what. Though i’m no expert and I don’t know much at all about either subject to be honest.

 

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding or mistranslation somewhere? Are the Daoists absolutely sure that qi flows up the du mai, and down the ren mai (I know they say that qi can sometimes flow up the ren mai or down the du mai in unhealthy people, but i’m not talking about that)?

There is a system tha has both the ida and pingala and what is called the mco in taoism......this is the system of the tamil siddhas explained in the wonderful book "siddhas: master of the basics" form Pal Pandian. so these are different channels. in Daoism the ida and pingala are called side brachnes of the central channel (damo mitchell explains that in his books).

 

Prof. Jerry Alan Johnson writes that in Peking there are doctors that say that the healthy normal flow of chi is up the front and down the back and only reverses through internal training.

 

best

Edited July 19, 2018 by MIchael80

[Starjumper]

22 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

I know they say that qi can sometimes flow up the ren mai or down the du mai in unhealthy people.

 

Who is the bozo that says that?  Wait don't tell me, I know.  Some fundamentalists like to make things up in order to seem clever to others or to dictate what they, in their kindergarten level learnings, think is the only way.

 

56 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

in Peking there are doctors that say that the healthy normal flow of chi is up the front and down the back and only reverses through internal training.

 

In the more holistic types of chi kung we train it both directions, however usually finishing off with it going up the back and then the central channel.  All done with hands only.

 

There must be ten or twenty ways to do it with movement, or a hundred, and the movement does much more than just that.  No mind is payed to THAT!

Edited July 19, 2018 by Starjumper

[Phoenix3]

So if the ida and pingala channels, and ren and du channels are different, we got the ida channel, pingala channel and du channel sending qi to the head, and only the ren channel removing qi from the head.

 

Either the ren channel is huge or there would be a lot of congestion in the head, no?

[Spotless]

If you know basically nothing about these channels other than direct experience and observation they will unfold in general as follows.

 

Energies will appear to move up the front generally though not necessarily appear as moving down the back as clearly for quite some time to most of those who see/feel such things.

 

In most people the front central area channels are the only ones fairly well defined.

 

The inner side channels are generally very faint. Most of the inner head channels are not formed to a visible level.

Energy centers are in general not particularly pronounce wthin the body with the exception of the major and minor regular centers of a particular person. (Most people functioned more or less in only one primary center and one supporting alternate center).

 

The back channels consist of at least five channels - main channels and supporting side channels.

Some front "channels" are more channels that are reflections of connections from the back channels forward and some are flows from circular motions of energy centers in the flower of their structures.

 

The side channels have difficulty growing to a great extent without the supporting leg channels - these are mid placed side channels approximately in line with the nipples at their widest mid chest locations.

 

The channels associated with the MCO are practically dormant if compared to a full opening and then the latter fusing of many of the channels into one. At the time that the MCO opens full it will become very large to approximately an 8-12" oval of massive energy all along its path and fully comparable to a full Kundalini  onslaught but maintained for days or weeks and then subsiding to a degree.. This may be followed by a vast increase in the energy intensity while at the same time the size of the channel actually becomes infinitesimal smaller and intensely compressed by comparison - some 3/4 of an inch in diameter.

 

The main center pole - extending from the  perineum to the top of the head and slightly back of center will generally require considerable inner practice to become noticeable and may become relatively prominent wth martial artists given attention to the hara/abdomen/lower dan tien area. It will not become extraordinary until considerable changes have taken place well above the head and well below the waist and then also the fusing of various inner head and center of head and throat and on down takes place.

 

Most that is know of the MCO is relatively mundane and this is far more true of the inner pole described above - assumption with regard to these descriptions will be necessarily extremely far from reality - they are inconceivable to mind and far beyond any psychedelic experiences and they are completely sustained (as in permanent). The MCO will dissapear in fusion with all major channels  - the pole will fuse on a much higher level.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Spotless

[joeblast]

15 minutes ago, Spotless said:

it will become very large to approximately an 8-12" oval of massive energy all along its path

that's also my experience

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by joeblast

[MIchael80]

10 minutes ago, joeblast said:

that's also my experience

 

 

 

 

really like this gif!!

[EmeraldHead]

31 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

really like this gif!!

What does it represent? 

[joeblast]

14 minutes ago, Arramu said:

What does it represent? 

A few things...like the waxing and waning of the moon's phases....

 

...or....

 

the MCO, if one knows what the hexagrams are actually saying

 

[freeform]

It’s best not to mix representations from different systems. These channels and their courses and movements are there to support and make sense of effects from practice in a system.

 

Different systems concentrate on different levels of the energy body at different times in one’s development. It’s a waste of time trying to make theoretical sense of these systems. It’s like intently studying the intricacy of Italian grammar, having never heard or spoken a word of it. It just doesn’t make sense.

[Marblehead]

Have I mentioned that there are no absolutes?

 

[Limahong]

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Have I mentioned that there are no absolutes?

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

I am not absolutely sure if you had.

 

A body is a body in terms of commonalities e.g. jelly beans, sEEd and passion fruits.

 

But minds differ.

 

So there are no absolutes.

 

Thus you are absolutely correct.

 

- LimA

 

[Marblehead]

41 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Thus you are absolutely correct.

I would prefer "relatively" correct.

 

[Limahong]

17 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I would prefer "relatively" correct.

 

But of course.

 

Nothing is cast in stone e.g.arrow of time is a relative concept  and is not absolute.

 

 

 

[damdao]

On 18/7/2018 at 4:17 PM, Phoenix3 said:

For me, this is a really important point, as so much understanding about traditional chinese medicine, qigong, etc is dependant on the assumption that qi flows down the ren mai and goes up the du mai in healthy people. It’s what separates Daoist thought from Dharmic thought, where the two main channels (the ida and pingala nadis) both go up to the head.

 

 

In different practices either hinduist or buddhist (even bön) you have to visualize breath/energy going down from one nadi and going up to the other nadi, then you reverse the flow, you can even go down the two lateral nadis and go up the central one.

So, a certain practice does not affect the general theory or general direction of energy. Similarly, in chinese TCM and Daoism, depending on the practice you go up or down but in theory all extraordinary vessels go up. 

The other very important point is what kind of energy circulate through these vessels and what kind of transformations they experimet along the practice.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Afaik, which is precious little if any, isn’t it also important to mention that TCM differs a lot from classical chinese medicine, neigong and qigong?

As in the experiences of energy work and alchemy do not correlate exactly to TCM as the latter is kind of a remix of classical teachings having been purged of stuff deemed reactionary, antimaoist or just plain old silly hocus bogus?

 

Plus, one tradition has a certain model of knowledge and ideation with variations in both path, tells and methods. Compare it to another system that differs greatly even at surface level and stuff will get doubly confusing twice as fast.

 

Imo the term MCO and a lot of the correlated stuff seems to have a strong relationship to Chias stuff, and Chias stuff is problematic according to a lot of people, but i could be wrong.

[Phoenix3]

Apparently the yang channels are supposed to flow down the body at the back of the body, and yin channels are supposed to flow upwards at the front of the body.

 

So why does the ren channel (sea of yin channels) run down the front of the body, and the du channel (sea of yang channels) run up the back of the body?

[joeblast]

watch the video I posted

 

the yoyo doesnt work right if both lengths are the same

[Phoenix3]

1 hour ago, joeblast said:

watch the video I posted

 

the yoyo doesnt work right if both lengths are the same

 

I don’t get it, sorry.  

[Marblehead]

22 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I don’t get it, sorry.  

I know that feeling.  A lot of things go right over my head.