The Self, Does it Exist?

[Limahong]

15 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

we have to indicate Self (upper S) and self (lower s)

 

I am that told we have three dantains - so is there a middle self (s)?

[Marblehead]

Just now, Limahong said:

 

I am that told we have three dantains - so is there a middle self (s)?

Not that I know of but without doubt someone has created one.

 

[Stosh]

Nah 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Stosh

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Not that I know of but without doubt someone has created one.

 

 

 

S 

s 

 

s

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Limahong

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi steve,

 

On 'self' - it is good to be selfless.

 

My Granny told me - never be selfish.

 

- LimA

 

 

I like your granny.

I also like the advice of Father Anthony Demello -

'It's not selfish to live your life the way you see fit, selfishness is expecting me to live my life the way you see fit.'

Warm regards LimA

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, steve said:

I like your granny.

 

Hi steve,

 

Granny sends her love.

 

She is warming up to Father Anthony Demello.

 

She likes to remind you this - "Don't forget your prayer before you sleep".

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

16 hours ago, Stosh said:

Nah

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

Existence (in this universe) is growing through forms, forms evolve and devolve, some reach a threshold where they can (re)turn to their source and become permanently individuated fragments, like eddys in a river that become permanent.   This is what communion means, a being who is real is a bridge, on one end the Sun on the other the Moon.   All real beings are communions.
Like water boiling, some gas molecules escape, the rest cycle and recycle and lose their opportunity.
Anyone who reaches out will be helped, but most live and die in fear, or imagination.
However much you think you need to do to get there, do 3 times more.

[Limahong]

19 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Like water boiling, some gas molecules escape, the rest cycle and recycle and lose their opportunity.

 

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

30 minutes ago, rideforever said:

However much you think you need to do to get there, do 3 times...

 

 

[ion]

Limahong

 

so yes, that was one of the "nature"s I mentioned and as you said, it is dependent.

 

It appears that everyone here who argues for the existence of the self can not argue their view without relying on magical ideas of how it exists.

 

no one who's view is that the self exists can argue that with pure reason and so the conversation devolves into pics that have a vague connection to off topic comments accompanied by indiscernable off topic ramblings.

 

if anything, form, or phenomenon exist it will have characteristics. Anything with characteristics gets the characterization and it's being/activity from what it is dependent on and nothing originates or exists indipendently of the conditions and causitive factors that characterize it into being.

 

this is not a religious axiom or belief like "I have a soul", but is a logical observation that holds true when applied to anything that can not be refuted.

 

 

...and as far as dreamers having self

 

in my dreams I often experience the dream from several perceptions within the dream.

 

I am not always my usual identity in my dreams, some times the dream is viewed from more than one of the dreams characters view point.

 

often I am not even sure which of the characters in a dream I am, or if I am more than one, or if my perception of the dream is from all the characters and even none of them

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by ion

[rideforever]

On 31/07/2018 at 4:37 PM, ion said:

if anything, form, or phenomenon exist it will have characteristics. Anything with characteristics gets the characterization and it's being/activity from what it is dependent on and nothing originates or exists indipendently of the conditions and causitive factors that characterize it into being.

 

The error with this logic is that it implies you are the whole, and you can easily demonstrate you are not, for instance the whole has created gravity planets and love.  What can you do ?  Nothing, you are just a small monkey.

 

Therefore you who speak are in fact something that has arisen, and if you wish to survive you need to do something otherwise you will die.

 

The whole is not you, it lives and will live.   But you will actually die.  When your body dies and you close your eyes nothing is left.

 

The whole is alive now, but you don't know it, and you are not it, stop talking about it.

 

Spirituality is concerned with making this small self permanent through a fusion bridge with the source, then when the body dies this small voice that you are will live on as itself ... it becomes a soul.   This means the small eddy in the river of life that was given a temporarily supported life, has through its own joy of life and returning to the source it has become a permanent eddy no longer temporary.

 

Spirituality is about .... the individual soul living on beyond death, because of your joy of exploration, and so you truly reflect the source which is doing the same.

 

Of course the whole is there always was there and always will be there.

But you won't.   If you still have the imagination that you are the whole, well try to do something like make a planet.  Does it work?   After you see that you cannot do it, recognize that you are just a monkey and the clock is ticking.

One area of confusion is that if you are able to feel or reach the source (and it is your source after all) .... then it can feel very nice, you can imagine you are the source .... but once again just try to do something the source can do.   And you won't be able to.   Because you are just feeling the source, you are not the source.

 

A second area of confusion comes from the damage to the intelligence of Western people, this has been caused like in Ancient Rome because material possessions are plentiful, and people don't need to use their intelligence in a responsible way.  If you need to think straight to made the wheat grow or your wife and kids will die .... that is a motivator.  If you are a bum with no real honest work, sitting on your plastic chair, looking at your phone .... then when you think it is just shit.    Real thinking and intelligence is a muscle that needs to be trained.

 

A third area is that because of the decline in true intelligence what arises from shit lazy thinking is a a degenerated world understanding and fragmented self-understanding which is called the ego.   The ego is somebody who is ill and no longer recognizes his own self, or true intelligence.    Humans who are ill tend to make others ill, which is important to understand.   Someone who is deeply unhappy gets anxious if a healthy person arrives and will tend to attack them or crucify them.

 

A fourth area is that people unfortunate enough to be born into a world of shit lazy idle people, does not feel very good, not knowing himself, the earth, meaning or anything.   The sterilized world.   And such people become quite desperate inside, some take anti-depressants.    Some reach for spiritual ideas to justify their feeling of not existing.   But the truth is they have been damaged.

Edited August 2, 2018 by rideforever

[rideforever]

[Marblehead]

My Self is whatever I claim it to be.  However, I can prove nothing and no one can disprove anything.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

My Self is whatever I claim it to be.  However, I can prove nothing and no one can disprove anything.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, prove it!

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Apech

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

My Self is whatever I claim it to be.  However, I can prove nothing and no one can disprove anything.

 

Leaving the proof part alone , What makes you say this ? (said for what reason) And why is this conclusion one that you think best fits the data you have. It's an interesting claim one ,or I , might make, to exclude commentary from other people as having validity. But on the face of it , I can claim myself to be .. a loaf of bread , and I wouldn't go poof! and be on a plate. 

( my nah wasn't amed at you , I was reconsidering  the post I made as boring to me , and decided to skip with it, but you cant leave the blank space blank) 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Stosh

[Daemon]

In order even to begin to ask this question, there's a fundamental necessity to be clear about what you understand by self.

This is further complicated by the possibility that there's also the term Self and that self and Self may or may not be assigned different meanings.

In my own experience, it's not possible to answer this question intellectually but it is possible to answer it experientially.

 

☮️

 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

Oh yeah, prove it!

 

If I could I would but I won't because I can't.

 

[Stosh]

7 minutes ago, Daemon said:

In order even to begin to ask this question, there's a fundamental necessity to be clear about what you understand by self.

This is further complicated by the possibility that there's also the term Self and that self and Self may or may not be assigned different meanings.

In my own experience, it's not possible to answer this question intellectually but it is possible to answer it experientially.

 

☮️

 

Fine,  then whats your experience that would answer the question?

You eat a watermelon, taste it, etc, maybe this is  your self as experienced. But then your opinions about the fruit are mostly fixed and in place before you bite in , aren't they?

and to mentally support that, you can imagine that this particular slice ,today , is unripe and flavorless,, (because you got it at publix) and so you are surprised. 

Being surprised, your past experience is not lining up with the present, and so ,,, does this this not suggest a 'self' of past experiences , that is not necessarily the 'self' of the present?  

[Marblehead]

38 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Leaving the proof part alone , What makes you say this ? (said for what reason) And why is this conclusion one that you think best fits the data you have. It's an interesting claim one ,or I , might make, to exclude commentary from other people as having validity. But on the face of it , I can claim myself to be .. a loaf of bread , and I wouldn't go poof! and be on a plate. 

( my nah wasn't amed at you , I was reconsidering  the post I made as boring to me , and decided to skip with it, but you cant leave the blank space blank) 

Why did I say that?  Well, we are still defining (s)elf and (S)elf.  To me there is a difference. 

 

Lower "s" - self, indicates the physical body and all attached parts.  That is my physical self, different from all other people and different from all the other Ten Thousand Things.

 

However,

 

Upper "S" - Self, for me indicates my energy essence that is a part of the Universal "One".  I use the word "energy" in order to reduce my essence to the lowest common denominator.  Can we call it Chi?  Maybe.  And reduced to energy we can suggest that any other energy that reaches us from the external may alter the harmony of the Yin/Yang energy.  And I too, while radiating energy may alter the harmony of other nearby energy consolidations (people in particular).

 

So basically, if we talk about "self" we can easily define that - our physical being.  But if we talk about "Self", that spiritual essence, that Mystery of Mysteries, the best I can do is to state that I am (Self) an energetic aspect of the totality.

 

 

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, Daemon said:

In order even to begin to ask this question, there's a fundamental necessity to be clear about what you understand by self.

This is further complicated by the possibility that there's also the term Self and that self and Self may or may not be assigned different meanings.

In my own experience, it's not possible to answer this question intellectually but it is possible to answer it experientially.

 

☮️

 

Yeah, I just gave it my best shot above.  When I go to a store to buy something it is I (self) who is buying it and chances are excellent that I'm not thinking on spiritual things at the moment I am paying for that whatever.  No miracles are going to happen.  No magic is needed.  It's a simple transaction between me and the store.

 

[ion]

14 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

The error with this logic is that it implies you are the whole, and you can easily demonstrate you are not, for instance the whole has created gravity planets and love.  What can you do ?  Nothing, you are just a small monkey.

 

Therefore you who speak are in fact something that has arisen, and if you wish to survive you need to do something otherwise you will die.

 

The whole is not you, it lives and will live.   But you will actually die.  When your body dies and you close your eyes nothing is left.

 

The whole is alive now, but you don't know it, and you are not it, stop talking about it.

 

Spirituality is concerned with making this small self permanent through a fusion bridge with the source, then when the body dies this small voice that you are will live on as itself ... it becomes a soul.   This means the small eddy in the river of life that was given a temporarily supported life, has through its own joy of life and returning to the source it has become a permanent eddy no longer temporary.

 

Spirituality is about .... the individual soul living on beyond death, because of your joy of exploration, and so you truly reflect the source which is doing the same.

 

Of course the whole is there always was there and always will be there.

But you won't.   If you still have the imagination that you are the whole, well try to do something like make a planet.  Does it work?   After you see that you cannot do it, recognize that you are just a monkey and the clock is ticking.

One area of confusion is that if you are able to feel or reach the source (and it is your source after all) .... then it can feel very nice, you can imagine you are the source .... but once again just try to do something the source can do.   And you won't be able to.   Because you are just feeling the source, you are not the source.

 

A second area of confusion comes from the damage to the intelligence of Western people, this has been caused like in Ancient Rome because material possessions are plentiful, and people don't need to use their intelligence in a responsible way.  If you need to think straight to made the wheat grow or your wife and kids will die .... that is a motivator.  If you are a bum with no real honest work, sitting on your plastic chair, looking at your phone .... then when you think it is just shit.    Real thinking and intelligence is a muscle that needs to be trained.

 

A third area is that because of the decline in true intelligence what arises from shit lazy thinking is a a degenerated world understanding and fragmented self-understanding which is called the ego.   The ego is somebody who is ill and no longer recognizes his own self, or true intelligence.    Humans who are ill tend to make others ill, which is important to understand.   Someone who is deeply unhappy gets anxious if a healthy person arrives and will tend to attack them or crucify them.

 

A fourth area is that people unfortunate enough to be born into a world of shit lazy idle people, does not feel very good, not knowing himself, the earth, meaning or anything.   The sterilized world.   And such people become quite desperate inside, some take anti-depressants.    Some reach for spiritual ideas to justify their feeling of not existing.   But the truth is they have been damaged.

I have no clue how this relates to what you quoted me as saying. 

 

What I said in no way implies that you, me, or any compound has a self that "is the whole"

 

incidentally the five heaps of you me or a monkey does have its own gravitational field. Every and any particle that has mass and density hasa gravitational field, it is being in the earth gravitational field that gives us weight.

 

other than that I read your post 3 times and can't see how it relates to what of my post you quoted, or any thing I posted in this thread and to be honest I don't see how it relates to the topic at all.

 

I kind of got the impression like you were drunk and using a random statement as a prop or straw man in order to make some sort of proclamation that you are preoccupied with and that you thought everyone needed to hear?

[3bob]

even Lord Brahma the creator is not free from 'death'...but the "Self is.

(Btw. the lifetime of Lord Brahma is extremely long,  there is also the the "day and night" of Lord Brahma.  Buddhists have different names or descriptions for such time periods)

Edited August 3, 2018 by 3bob

[Daemon]

23 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I just gave it my best shot above.  When I go to a store to buy something it is I (self) who is buying it and chances are excellent that I'm not thinking on spiritual things at the moment I am paying for that whatever.  No miracles are going to happen.  No magic is needed.  It's a simple transaction between me and the store.

 

 

I guess it's always possible to have a magical, mutually life enriching interaction with those that you meet on these seemingly mundane outings?

Perhaps, that's dependent upon whether you view life itself as magical and miraculous?

 

☮️

 

[silent thunder]

before one can walk to a store and purchase a mundane, normal, non magical item... first, the entire universe must manifest.

 

in light of this, even the most mundane of happenings to me, is utterly imbued with the magical.