The Self, Does it Exist?

[LinLin]

The 'self' as we experience it is a temporary coming-together of form, consciousness, feeling, etc. This breaks up at death.

 

The 'no-self' teaching is that there is no fixed self, no enduring core.

[Patrick Brown]

4 hours ago, LinLin said:

The 'self' as we experience it is a temporary coming-together of form, consciousness, feeling, etc. This breaks up at death.

 

The 'no-self' teaching is that there is no fixed self, no enduring core.

Yes this view of a non permanent self has been popularized in recent years. I don't think it's complete but helps people deal with difficult situations.

 

At a deeper level you start thinking these are not my thoughts and these are not my feelings etc. In truth we are all self cultivators and therefore as we sow...

 

We choose who we are and if we choose truth then perhaps there is a permanent self! 

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If I could bend over that far ... well I'll leave that to your imagination.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If I could bend over that far ... well I'll leave that to your imagination.

 

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

You said that already

 

[Michael Sternbach]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

You said that already

 

 

It bears repetition.

[Marblehead]

13 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

then perhaps there is a permanent self! 

I was agreeing with your post until you got to this phrase.  It is contradictory.

 

[Patrick Brown]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I was agreeing with your post until you got to this phrase.  It is contradictory.

 

Well the saying goes "we're all born equal but some more equal than others"! Those that hold to the one immutable truth beyond birth and death may be said to be immortal those that chase the relative truth are 'transitionary beings' for ever in a state of flux so have an impermanent transitory self. Even immortals are born and then die but their core nature is that of a child and eternal. I suppose this is why immortals have a hard time early in life because they tend to not fit into the currently accepted mindset, a relative one, but once they realise their true nature!

 

"Between birth and death, 
Three in ten are followers of life, 
Three in ten are followers of death, 
And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten. 
Why is this so? 
Because they live their lives on the gross level."

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

Well the saying goes "we're all born equal but some more equal than others"!

Yeah, being a Materialist restricts me in some discussions.

 

But I am seeking immortality.  So far I'm doing pretty good.  We'll see what tomorrow brings if I make it through today.

 

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But I am seeking immortality.  So far I'm doing pretty good.  We'll see what tomorrow brings if I make it through today.

 

 

We're all eternal just that most are chasing the next me, me, me! Eternal and immortal are not the same thing. I sometimes wonder about being someone else but that's just silly isn't it?

 

At the end of the day it doesn't make much difference as we're all in the asylum together!  

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

We're all eternal just that most are chasing the next me, me, me! Eternal and immortal are not the same thing. I sometimes wonder about being someone else but that's just silly isn't it?

Yes, trying to be someone else is silly.  We just have to do the best we can with what we have.

4 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

At the end of the day it doesn't make much difference as we're all in the asylum together!  

Yep.  Some people create memories before they die but in the long term even the memories die.

 

 

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

We're all eternal just that most are chasing the next me, me, me! Eternal and immortal are not the same thing. I sometimes wonder about being someone else but that's just silly isn't it?

 

At the end of the day it doesn't make much difference as we're all in the asylum together!  

 

For years I strove to be immoral until one day someone pointed out I'd missed out a 't'.  So much time wasted enjoying myself

[Patrick Brown]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

For years I strove to be immoral until one day someone pointed out I'd missed out a 't'.  So much time wasted enjoying myself

Enjoying yourself is what it's all about otherwise what the point in having a self! 

[Everything]

Wrong question. The self is existance itself, it thus doesn't have any awareness of itself, because there is nothing outside of itself. It is literally all there is. So without you, there would be nothing. Literally, nothing. That is why it is so important to allow yourself to be who you are and be ok with it, even if that means you are in this moment not allowing yourself to be the full of all that you truely are, stepping on your own feet every step allong the way.

Wrong question. It exists, and you experience yourself by all the ways of experiencing that which you are not. The self exists as a perspective, an ever evolving perspective that constantly defines itself in ever expanding ways by virtue of that which it is not. So we can all work hand in hand in full harmony in our ever expansion.

Correct question. The question is not does it exists, the question is, how does it exist, now and now and now? Forevermore. In its natural state of ever expansion.

And only you can answer that question, because you will forever experience yourself in a new way, forever again and again, by virtue of knowing yourself by virtue of knowing that which you are not, in the new now you and the new now you and yet another way that existance has of experiencing itself in all the ways that it can, as who it is you really are. These two things can work hand in hand in harmony to allow your full power in your every now moment of you and the not you.

 

You are asking the question, because you think that what you now know, is not enough. So your experience cannot show you anything that you already know. And thus, your knowledge cannot expand.

If you are ok with what you now know, in every new now moment again and again, regardless of WHATEVER that may be, and you be content with your current ability to know whatever it is you experience or know in any given moment, atleast for one full completely dedicated day of contentment with whatever it is you now have or experience. Then your ability to know what you need to know when you need to know it, will be your ever expanding abbundance of knowledge, that will naturally lead you to the moreness of this ever expanding abbundance of more and more knowledge.

And then when you are there, come back and read about your ability -> to know even better things then you've ever allowed yourself to know, and that you've always wanted to know.

And then, when you are there, come back and read about your ability -> to allow yourselves to know even more better things then you've ever allowed yourself to know, and that you've always wanted to know and how easy all of that is.

And then when you are there, come back and read about your ability -> To know everything you truely want to know, now. And now. And now. In it's ever expansion.

And then when you are there, come back and read about your ability -> Live happily for ever after. Excited in every moment and always eager for more.

And when then you are there, come back and read about your ability -> To live a passionate life, forevermore.

And then when you are there, come back and read about your ability -> To be the knowledge that you seek, and the freedom that you seek that walks hand in hand with that knowledge. And your ability to be whoever it is you wanna be. And the ability to be the love that you seek and see it reflected back to you in infinite ways as infinite people and beings and things, etc. And to be the joy you seek and see it reflect back to you in ever experience you can possibly imagine for yourself ever having, and in every experience you are possibly ever having.

And all the way up to infinity, better and more.

 

Just because you find difficulty in enjoying life, doesn't mean there are not infinite more better things than even the best of joys you are capable of imagining your life to be or even ever have ever allowed yourself to experience in your life. And that you are all worthy of.

 

but most people, wanna go the other way around. They wanna take the difficult route. Being unhappy their whole life, and then die, and then be super happy when they are dead. And then they wanna come back and teach other to be happy before they die, and then they are unhappy, and try reaaaal hard to be happy. On and on it goes. Untill more of your memory awakens of all that you have truely been. And how it all converges now into this HUGE vortex of convergence point, of this huge shift that humanity is now going through in their simple ability to acknowledge what it is they truely want, right here and now, where all of there power is. To just be happy, because. In your full alignment with your unconditional nature of who it is you truely are, already made out of the love you seek in your life. Already made out of the knowledge you seek in your life.  Already made out of the freedom, you seek in your life. So you learn to be ok with who it is you are now, unconditionally, because you contain all of that which you seek, and all the small pieces as all of the individual people slowly come into alignment with the whole of all that is who they truely are. Like gears clicking into place of full synchronized harmonized coherent alignment.  And then all the individual pieces of the puzzle of the complete picture of all that you are as a hole humanity, through all the blessed individual pieces  that you all are, decide to completely be themselves and allow themselves to be themselves more, and be ok with it, because then the whole of humanity can be more of themselves aswell. And you do this unconditionally, not because you want world peace, but because you allow yourself to finally realize that you are the world peace that you seek. And world peace can never be achieved without you. So you allow yourself to make peace with whoever it is you are. As you fully allow yourself to be who it is you really are. No matter what. Unconditionally, being happy. Or at first being unconditionally content with whoever it is you are. And then again as I said, when you are there, come back and ready about your ability -> to be unconditionally hopeful for all that you will be evermore.

When you are there, come back and ready about your ability -> to be unconditionally optimistic for all that you will ever be ever more in every now and now experience again and again.

And if you choose the state of being of what it is you really want, the circumstances around you have but no choice but to reflect right back at you what you have now decided to be.

There is absolutely zero trying whatsoever, no effort whatsoever, in your ability to just be, to just allow yourself to be what it is you wanna be. 

And it is ok, if you experience the difficult road. Because you will always gain more clarity about what it is you do want by virtue of experiencing what it is you don't want. So your knowledge and wisdom has no choice but to expand forevermore into more and better, in all the unique ways of your own personally and blessed unique life experiences through which you have carved out your personally and uniquely blessed personal preferences in your life. Of which you will always be 100% fully deserving and worthy.

But you have to pay attention more to what it is you do want, otherwise your knowledge of it cannot expand. So what is it that you do want? You can ask your self why you want the knowledge you seek? Cause you see yourself being and feeling more free with that knowledge? Go with it, feel that freedom more and be that freedom more, in whatever way you are capable of being and feeling that freedom more and more. As you ask why you want what you want, you will always enter the core values of who it is you truely already are and what it is you truely already want. And gain extreme amounts of clarity through all of that. You can allow it to be that easy and skip all the intermediary steps if you wish.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Everything

[lifeforce]

On 22/07/2018 at 6:34 PM, rocala said:

Well, is there a self, what is it?

 

See here:

 

[rideforever]

On 06/10/2018 at 8:33 AM, Everything said:

Wrong question. The self is existance itself, it thus doesn't have any awareness of itself, because there is nothing outside of itself. It is literally all there is. So without you, there would be nothing. Literally, nothing.

 

That's ridiculous thing to say.

If the self was like you say it would be dead because to be alive means it must be doing something it moving living growing, it's intelligence is growing.

It is active which means it has subtle parts that "move" and "act".

When you say "you" what do you mean the noisy idiot-ego ?
Well you can discard that in a flash, nobody needs to talk about that idiot.
There are other "yous", Real "yous" that aren't your social character.

Btw it would be helpful if your posts were more concise and structured.

 

Recognition-intelligence is a movement.   It is not the coarse movement of the ego, but a subtle movement of aliveness, yes intelligence is movement.

Clearly as we are all here talking and shitting (often at the same time) something is moving in existence.
"I" is the first thing you can be sure of.

In fact beyond "I" who knows what's out there.

 

Another thing is ... we can evolve, in our inner being.

Something has changed and I am not as I was before, inside.

So when people argue about whether Self (or whatever) exists or whether it is correct, this is stupidity.

Monkeys like to argue for years about the same nothing, because it relieves their lives.

The inner "I" grows, it is not "is it there", but "how to make it grow", "how to feel my inner I".

 

Things are changing, even your inner being changes, it grows.

The situation is moving.

Outside of course the seasons wheel in the sky and life is noisy.

The inner being is a silent never-changing presence.

But it too does change, it deepens silently.

In the beginning it is as small as a seed, barely can be felt.

In the end it is titanic.

 

For those who have only a tiny seed inside them, most likely they die within noticing.

They live in the crowd, like sheep in a herd.

They have no anchor, they bleet like they are told and live without their soul.

They are the No-self ... yes they are No-nothing just a cloud passing overhead.

 

But for those who are cultivating their inner seed, yes there is something within.

Something they have recognized, grown, protected, hidden.

A secret.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by rideforever

[ilumairen]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:52 AM, rideforever said:

 

That's ridiculous thing to say.

If the self was like you say it would be dead because to be alive means it must be doing something it moving living growing, it's intelligence is growing.

It is active which means it has subtle parts that "move" and "act".

 

This activity, the moving, living and growing are what makes "self" impermanent. It isn't fixed and unchanging.

 

On 5/31/2019 at 4:52 AM, rideforever said:

Another thing is ... we can evolve, in our inner being.

Something has changed and I am not as I was before, inside.

So when people argue about whether Self (or whatever) exists or whether it is correct, this is stupidity.

 

What is your understanding of "no self"? Because you present the arguments for the proper understanding of "no self" in your arguments against "no self", and I'm finding it quite curious. 

 

On 5/31/2019 at 4:52 AM, rideforever said:

Monkeys like to argue for years about the same nothing, because it relieves their lives.

The inner "I" grows, it is not "is it there", but "how to make it grow", "how to feel my inner I".

 

Things are changing, even your inner being changes, it grows.

The situation is moving.

Outside of course the seasons wheel in the sky and life is noisy.

The inner being is a silent never-changing presence.

But it too does change, it deepens silently.

In the beginning it is as small as a seed, barely can be felt.

In the end it is titanic.

 

Is "it" changing, or is your awareness of "it" what is growing?

 

 

[rideforever]

How does a normal person experience the world, and what is Awareness ?

A normal person has no fixed sense of identity, he is lost in his mind, or you could say his identity intertwined with external phenomena.

A normal person imagines he knows who he is, but on further investigation his mind is talking 24hrs a day and he only has an assumed identity and not a true identity.

That is the starting point of the human journey.

By spiritual practice you can change from the ordinary state of a human being, to awaken Awareness; this is where you establish a permanent observation position, it is a stable identity.

You feel a big shift, and you feel your Awareness.

Of course as you perceive external phenomena they are always in flux. 

But in Awareness you are not in flux, you have become stable, this is the first true identity.

But Awareness has no body, it is just a shallow awakening.

Consciousness is when the Awareness has matured.   

Awareness is stable, but after some time it matures and develops strength, and a body.

The halo drawn on spiritual diagrams is an attempt to paint the body that is Consciousness on a painting, it is circular extends outside of the skull and is centred in the aft part of the head.

Other centres like the heart and Dantien, can be likewise awakened, first in a shallow way, but eventually with a body that is clear, and eventually after many many years all these centres join up to form the entire body of the soul, which is an immortal being.

What is the soul made of ?   It is the universal consciousness that has become formed into an individuated body that self-recognizes.   It is both universal and individuated.

Like pouring molten gold into the  human body.   After the human body breaks, what is left is the "golden" body.

Of course this only happens if the "fusion" occurs.

Otherwise the consciousness is poured back into the ocean of consciousness when the physical body dies.

 

 

[silent thunder]

does a whirlpool exist?

 

is it a thing?

or a happening?

[dawei]

39 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

is it a thing?

 

Do I have to read all 6 pages to get the correct answer ? 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

does a whirlpool exist?

 

Very cool comparison!

[Patrick Brown]

If I had to give a yes or no answer I would say no. Just a bubble rising to the surface and the light. 

[rideforever]

Is a whirlpool a thing ?
Yes ... it must be if we can talk about it.

Otherwise how can we understand what you are talking about ?

In fact in order to communicate a whirlpool several things must be active : we must live on a similar earth world, our intelligence must be similar, and our form must be similar. 

Only then can "whirlpool" be communicated.

So, our intelligences can identify from the environment a whirlpool through the use of intelligence.

You might say materially it is just one set of atoms in another set of atoms : but this is not really the point, because our development is of our intelligence, and we can pick out relative structures on the earth.

And in fact our intelligence needs to interaction of a physical body with a physical environment to grow, we could not grow without a physical presence, we just would not understand.

Later our intelligence, trained on the earth, can be used to pick out internal absolute structures of our real identity, which can be embodied with direct knowing.

 

Another angle is the exhausting nature of the mind, just shutting up and sitting in presence.

Although it might be far away from many people, the mind is only exhausting due to it not being embodied.  When you use your mind it does not cause pain, but when you don't use it and it is still talking what is happening is that it is working unconsciously because you have not not embodied it.   One day you must embody the mind itself so that you sit in its "control chair", then it won't talk on its own.

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by rideforever

[Fa Xin]

You can’t hold a whirlpool, it has no substantial self existence. It is just a manifestation of water. 

 

Talking about a whirlpool does not mean it inherently exists, just the concept that we communicate. 

 

It appears to exist, but it is only water. 

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

You can’t hold a whirlpool, it has no substantial self existence. It is just a manifestation of water. 

 

Talking about a whirlpool does not mean it inherently exists, just the concept that we communicate. 

 

It appears to exist, but it is only water. 

 

It's an event - motion reified and contemplated as a noun.