Question on wuxing trigrams

[ernobe]

The usual history tells us that sometime during the Han dynasty the five element theory became combined with the I-Ching.  If one accepts the attribution of the Latter Heaven trigram arrangement to King Wen, the author of the I-Ching, it is not too difficult to combine it with the trigram element correlations in the Shuo-gua appendix and the traditional five element correlations of the yearly cycle (and the center) to arrive at the proper correlations of the three trigram elements not mentioned in the Shuo-gua.  What is missing, as far as I can tell from the existing literature in English, is a reference to or translation from an actual text in which this is exposed.  Is there such a text?

[Harmen]

Bent Nielsen says,

 

The earliest known textual evidence for a correlation of the phases and the trigrams occurs in the eleventh-century Yishu Gouyintu 《易數鉤隱圖》, Outlining the Secret Diagrams of the Numbers of the Changes, by Liu Mu: 

 

As to the five phases becoming numbers, water’s number is six, metal’s number is nine, fire’s number is seven, and wood’s number is eight. Water resides in Kan and produces Qian. Metal resides in Dui and produces Kun. Fire resides in Li and produces Xun. Wood resides in Zhen and produces Gen. [Kan, Dui, Li, and Zhen] already reside in the four corners and produce Qian, Kun, Gen, and Xun. Collectively, they make up the eight trigrams.

'Cycles and sequences of the eight trigrams', Journal of Chinese Philosophy 41:1-2 (March–June 2014) p. 134

 

Although this might be the earliest full description of the trigrams & Wuxing correlation, that doesn't mean that the correlation was not made earlier. In the Shifa manuscript dated around 350BC the Wuxing are already used with the trigrams. See C. A. Cook and Zhao Lu, Stalk Divination: A Newly Discovered Alternative to the I Ching. 

[ernobe]

Bent Nielsen also says,

 

"In Needham’s opinion, the five phases occur among the correlations listed in the Shuogua 說卦, Explaining the Trigrams, which has Qian representing metal, Xun representing wood, Kan representing water, and Li representing fire."

 

( from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1540-6253.12086 )

 

But isn't it true that, contrary to Needhams's opinion, his opinion is that the first occurrence was in the eleventh century A.D. with Liu Mu? However, neither gives textual evidence for Gen correlated with Earth.  This is needed to complete the correlations as used in Chinese metaphysical systems like Feng Shui or Chinese astrology:

 

Qian = metal

Dui = metal

Li = fire

Zhen = wood

Xun = wood

Kan = water

Gen = earth

Kun = earth

 

I do not think Nielsen has any of this in mind when he says things like:

 

"Correlations between the five phases and the eight trigrams never played an important role in Chinese cosmology, though."

 

( from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1540-6253.12086 )

 

I don't remember such complete correlations between trigrams and elements from the Shifa either.

 

[Harmen]

3 minutes ago, ernobe said:

But isn't it true that, contrary to Needhams's opinion, his opinion is that the first occurrence was in the eleventh century A.D. with Liu Mu?

Yes.

9 minutes ago, ernobe said:

I don't remember such complete correlations between trigrams and elements from the Shifa either.

The correlations appear to be different. See for instance section 11.2 strips 17– 18 (p. 103 in Stalk Divination) where Gen is given Wuxing Water.

 

Maybe the earliest correlation is found in the Yizhuan 易傳 by Jing Fang 京方. 

[ernobe]

1 hour ago, Harmen said:

Yes.

The correlations appear to be different. See for instance section 11.2 strips 17– 18 (p. 103 in Stalk Divination) where Gen is given Wuxing Water.

 

According to Thomas Cleary, Liu Yiming (18th century) also relates Gen to the "inactive" quality of water (see "I Ching Mandalas").

 

1 hour ago, Harmen said:

 

Maybe the earliest correlation is found in the Yizhuan 易傳 by Jing Fang 京方. 

 

In your pdf on the Eight Houses there is a table (Table 9) called "Stems, Branches and Phases associations with the lines of the Pure Hexagrams". In it each of the "pure hexagrams" (formed by doubling a trigram) appear to be related to a phase, which implies an association of the trigrams with the phases.  If true, it means that the Yizhuan 易傳 is the text that we're looking for.   I wonder if it has any information on the Luo Shu diagram and the Latter Heaven trigram arrangement.

[Harmen]

8 hours ago, ernobe said:

According to Thomas Cleary, Liu Yiming (18th century) also relates Gen to the "inactive" quality of water (see "I Ching Mandalas").

 

Can you give me the page number? I can't find it.

 

8 hours ago, ernobe said:

I wonder if it has any information on the Luo Shu diagram and the Latter Heaven trigram arrangement.

 

No. The Yizhuan is nothing more than a commentary on the hexagrams from Jing's Ba Gong perspective. It is in the text that the link with the trigrams is explicitly made, see here https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/京氏易傳

 

I have a book that contains other works attributed to Jing Fang but in neither of them I can find references to the Luoshu or Houtian Bagua.

 

[ernobe]

8 hours ago, Harmen said:

17 hours ago, ernobe said:

According to Thomas Cleary, Liu Yiming (18th century) also relates Gen to the "inactive" quality of water (see "I Ching Mandalas").

 

Can you give me the page number? I can't find it.

 

I would have liked to, since I remember reading about it when I borrowed the book Taoist Classics Vol. 4 at archive.org.  I put myself on the waiting list again, so next time I can read it I will update this post with the exact page number.  It is in the section towards the end called "Arcana", after he speaks of the Ho map and Lo writing.

 

[ernobe]

According to Thomas Cleary in page 437 of "The Taoist Classics, Volume 4", the River Diagrams' four outer points correspond to the qualities of fire or spirit, water or vitality, metal or sense, and wood, nature or essence.  The center is earth or energy.  Then on page 443 he says that Liu I-Ming relates these to the trigrams as follows: Heaven stands for the movement of sense, Lake for the stillness of sense; Fire stands for the movement of spirit, Earth for the stillness of spirit; Thunder stands for the movement of nature, Wind for the stillness of nature; and Water stands for the movement of vitality, Mountain for the stillness of vitality.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by ernobe