The Advantage of Evil

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

I like your definition, nonetheless, We used to have a thread called something like Destroy A Wish, where someone made a wish for something and another said, Wish granted but.. some awful but logical thing happened because of it.

So in that vein, hitting a child in order to stop them from causing a catastrophe is good, ie hitting them on arm to stop them from firing a gun.  If resources were very slim, its better to enslave a person and be kind to them, then let them and there children starve. 

 

At times some Evil may be is necessary.  Evil gets things done quickly while good and justice are beginning a long debate.  Sadly when times are hard and resources few, evil flourishes and tends to take the lead.  If evil make the hard unpopular decisions, then steps down afterwards, maybe that's not so bad.  In that good intentions can wreak havoc with there unintended consequences.

 

maybe my 50% Nihilism score on the personality test was fairly accurate. 

 

I think we are confusing "evil" with "ruthless", as in "Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs;
the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs." (Ch. 5 DDJ). A ruthless person sees the path to the greatest good and takes it even if the path appears muddied. His actions yield the greatest good even though people don't understand and may call him evil. Such is the path of the sage. By comparison, true "evil" doesn't care about the greatest good. It cares only for itself. Thus a sage and a demon may (at times) behave the same, but the sage is always serving good whereas the same cannot be said of the demon.

 

 

[dawei]

21 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Label or not, Satan (and others of similar function) is  (are) the embodiment of evil. If you try to connect to the embodiment of evil on an energy level it will not be empty. What it will be and how it will affect you can be debated, but something is definitely there.

 

I strongly advise people to not dismiss evil like this. It is real. Label or not it has an underlying will. To blind oneself to evil by making it out to be just a label is dangerous in the same way that crossing the street without looking both ways is dangerous.

 

Several of us have connected. There was nothing there in terms of Light level issues.   Satan is not real would be my point.   Lucifer is a different story

 

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

Several of us have connected. There was nothing there in terms of Light level issues.   Satan is not real would be my point.   Lucifer is a different story

 

I see evil as real and generally quite bad.  Often its done in terms of selfishness, greed, ignorance, tribalism and shortsightedness.   In some cases people are psychopaths and twisted, enjoying the pain of others.   It's not just Them, to varying degrees such things are in all of us.   I think the above also explains the oft sad state of the world pretty well. 

 

Not only do I not see a need to bring supernatural beings into the equation, I think its bad because it shifts responsibility away from the real players and causes. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by thelerner

[zerostao]

perhaps the worthy adversaries good and evil are myths? the two concepts are woven into the tapestry of imagination that date back to Ancient times. does one hold an advantage over the other, interesting question.

Egyptian good god Osiris and his evil brother Set play a drama of betrayal, death, & resurrection.

Babylonian Ishtar dispenses good and evil. The hero king Gilgamesh that she loves rejects her while he portrays the human state of helplessness.

Persian duality has the god of Light ashura mazda (zoom zoom) and his evil brother angra mainyu.

Hebrew/Christain/Islam have a good god and devil duality.

Armenian demonic and beneficial spirits converted to christianity.

Greek well, zeus had his rivals.

Nordic/Finnish has a Trickster who acts and prevails without conscience while the devils hiisi and louhi fight and lose to the heroes.

Slavic duality of good and evil also has that dracula dude.

Siberian devils erlik, schulman, and satan are always trying to destroy humans. not sure if that is good or evil, hm oh well

Hindu always confuses me lol

Buddhist has an evil one that tempts Buddha, yes?

Chinese has duality expressed as yin yang not as good and evil

Japanese i think has light and chaos

Native North American also has a trickster who knows neither good nor evil

Aztec/Mayan/Inca the conflict is between life and death

Voodoo does have two prominent cults one is demonic and the other beneficial

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

5 minutes ago, zerostao said:

perhaps the worthy adversaries good and evil are myths? the two concepts are woven into the tapestry of imagination that date back to Ancient times. does one hold an advantage over the other, interesting question.

 

Perhaps there is a truth behind the myriad myths?

[zerostao]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Perhaps there is a truth behind the myriad myths?

imo there are always truths behind the myriad myths

i may delve deeper to consider why the Hindu, Nordic/Finnish, and Native North America appear to diverge from the others.

[rideforever]

Life to be alive has to be generative, to outrun decay.
Yuan is the new life being born, and that is the good.
It happens on many planes simultaneously and interlockingly.
There are those who use their intelligence to lead others astray, to destroy Yuan.
But even that is Yuan at some level, it represents creativity.
But growth of understanding is the ultimate value.
In some places it indicates that there are two mirror universes, one moving towards the Good pole, another moving towards the Evil pole, and this is required for growth.
But they are separate, those in the Good plane who wish to do Evil will just suffer.
Ultimately there may well be a designer playing out a vast game, but as we only live according to the rules, if we wish to continue living we must play by the rules.
And the controller himself (The Creator) may well be himself in somebody else's game at a higher level.

There are many higher wisdoms that can be learnt, about almost any discipline, but for you to learn you must learn how to use your free will because otherwise you are locked in the conventional mind .... it can be learnt step by step, through doing it.
Many evil people are trying to do something like that.
It is also very possible for the large system that is a human to become corrupt in various places, to live in bad faith, and to go beyond repair, after which time there is only terrible suffering.
It is good if the different parts of a human being are at roughly the same level of development.
Talk of morality and good and evil are at quite a low level of consciousness where one follows rules, because one does not feel life directly.

I have heard that humans beings are suffering terribly, much more than is realised, but they are blessed to not understand it.

To be a human and really try to cross that river, is to be very courageous.

There have been Men who have been very courageous indeed, beyond understanding, they had hope.

They had ... something.

"I've seen things, you people wouldn't believe."

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by rideforever

[zerostao]

@rideforever i do like your use of "bad faith" it is a term i became fond of reading some of the existentialists particularly sartre. rousseau's bad faith is a horse of another color. although both versions can easily be traced to montaigne.

jrr tolkein's The Hobbit & LOTR agree with rousseau's concept good and bad faith. I have touched upon the theme in my anarchy threads, I still have not made the public leap that society/civilization acts in "bad faith" which would be essentially "evil" even if the evidence does suggest just that.

apolgies to @Lost in Translation for my abstraction. however, it is my nature to do so.

[rideforever]

What will you think of, as you lay dying, and surely it will come to pass.
Mankind has been on a long gruelling incredible journey.
That is your bones, and your blood.
Today, in our plastic society it is difficult to see the enemy, the struggle, but it is there.
Think of those before you, who struggled in the biting cold, who danced under the same Moon, who thought of you, as you think of them.
So ... let's go then.
Once more unto the breach.

[zerostao]

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

What will you think of, as you lay dying, and surely it will come to pass.
Mankind has been on a long gruelling incredible journey.
That is your bones, and your blood.
Today, in our plastic society it is difficult to see the enemy, the struggle, but it is there.
Think of those before you, who struggled in the biting cold, who danced under the same Moon, who thought of you, as you think of them.
So ... let's go then.
Once more unto the breach.

that is the philosophical question isn't it? philosophy is about preparing to die. in the meanwhile we live and learn.

my Taoist experiences opened my mind to the energetics beyond blood and bone. for anything to be higher Spiritual it must translate into the physical realm too. connections transcend the physical and mental states to the Spiritual.

 

[Lost in Translation]

22 minutes ago, zerostao said:

philosophy is about preparing to die. in the meanwhile we live and learn.

 

This is the essence of it, but not everyone lives and learns. Some live in fear, which manifests as denial, or anger, or nihilism, or fanaticism - and all are really just means to alleviate the fear of the unknown. Evil captures that fear and twists it to its own end. Evil is the little voice that whispers ever so softly, planting hurtful ideas in the minds of men.

[mrpasserby]

On 7/27/2018 at 8:58 AM, Lost in Translation said:

Perhaps it is that evil is effective, at least for the moment?

In my experience: evil is a judgement call.

One group of people trying to go west in a sail boat, and another group of people going east in a sail boat.

A westerly wind pushing back the east going sail boat could be called a evil wind by the people in that sail boat.

A westerly wind pushing the west going sail boat could be called a good wind by the people in that sail boat.

huh 

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

9 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

In my experience: evil is a judgement call.

 

From a certain point of view that is correct. But evil is also a will, an intention. In your example the wind has neither.

[dawei]

With duality as our mind's game, we're allowed either/both sides.  I recall a story told in church one time of two people caught inside a church without knowledge of the other due to being on opposite sides of a wall during a doomsday episode.

 

The believer felt abandoned by god for the act.

 

The non-believer felt they found god for the act. 

[wandelaar]

The concept of evil is relative, but not so relative as to be without meaning.

[rideforever]

On 07/12/2018 at 9:19 PM, zerostao said:

that is the philosophical question isn't it? philosophy is about preparing to die. in the meanwhile we live and learn.

 

Philosophy is about preparing to live.

 

7 minutes ago, dawei said:

The believer felt abandoned by god for the act.

The non-believer felt they found god for the act. 

 

What you do or say or realise, is not very important.   Whether you do so mechanically - that is the question. 

 

 

Perhaps the true definition of evil is selling your soul.

But even saying such things belies the situation a human finds himself in ... at this low level of consciousness that humans live in the chance to awaken seems to be exceptionally small, talking about what you think or want or believe is quite irrelevant .... it's all imaginary.    Just like the pronoucements politicians make every day, with full confidence, that never materialise.   Stand back and witness the strangeness of it, as if in a play with all the actors having forgotten their acting.
And within, hidden from sight, buried collectively ... is the truth of suffering.   A world of people all lying about who and what they are ... in fact most human activity is to suppress the soul within, out of fear that one will be punished for have already done so for so long.

Edited December 21, 2018 by rideforever

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

The concept of evil is relative, but not so relative as to be without meaning.

 

As the saying goes on pornography... I know it when I see it 

[dawei]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Philosophy is about preparing to live.

 

 

What you do or say or realise, is not very important.   Whether you do so mechanically - that is the question. 

 

 

Was existentialism about preparing to live ?  

 

Mechanical... what if that is your Way ?

[Lost in Translation]

14 minutes ago, rideforever said:

But even saying such things belies the situation a human finds himself in ... at this low level of consciousness that humans live in the chance to awaken seems to be exceptionally small

 

Low/high - how can you say human consciousness is low? Compared to what?

 

Small/large - what does that mean? What is the "mean average" chance to awaken among living creatures? How can you say we have a small chance?

 

Such words are meaningful only in a relative sense. Like "evil", it is a point of view.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[dawei]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Low/high - how can you say human consciousness is low? Compared to what?

 

Small/large - what does that mean? What is the "mean average" chance to awaken among living creatures? How can you say we have a small chance?

 

Such words are meaningful only in a relative sense. Like "evil", it is a point of view.

 

This is all true... but even Einstein said relativity is important

 

Our modern consciousness seems higher than Neanderthals, yes? 

 

Our awareness is smaller than a deities, yes ? 

 

I do agree we have to accept this on a relative scale... but once you meet a deity, you will then understand what smaller means     

 

In duality understanding 

 

And there is a change you understand both/and of no separation and the lost of dual thinking 

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

Our modern consciousness seems higher than Neanderthals, yes? 

 

I don't know. Perhaps neanderthals lived each day being able to see ghosts and converse with deities. Perhaps they went extinct because there was nothing more to learn by being flesh.

 

4 minutes ago, dawei said:

Our awareness is smaller than a deities, yes ? 

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

 

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I don't know. Perhaps neanderthals lived each day being able to see ghosts and converse with deities. Perhaps they went extinct because there was nothing more to learn by being flesh.

 

I get that point but not sure they had that connection.  We know we can now. 

[Zen Pig]

The question of good and evil are very ancient.  Even in the western world this question is at least 3000 years old as far as we know.  So here goes. a good starting point to keep thinking about this kind of stuff is this is your hobby.  good luck.

 

"`What is good and what is evil?'; Philosophers of all ages have thought over this question. Each reckoned that he had solved the question once and for all, yet within a few years the problem would re-emerge with new dimensions. In fact, most of the answers would be later found inadequate or unsatisfactory. Religious thinkers also joined in presenting a solution in this regard but only added confusion. The Qur'an also offers a solution to this question and an effort will be made to explain it later in this dissertation."

 

http://www.al-mawrid.org/index.php/articles/view/good-and-evil-1-views-of-the-philosophers

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, dawei said:

Our modern consciousness seems higher than Neanderthals, yes

 

Humans are higher than chimpanzees, if that's what you mean.
And chimpanzees higher than starfish.

But none of them is conscious, there manifestation is entirely mechanical, material and perishes with the material.

 

Conscious is when you look at yourself in the mirror and recognize who you actually are, rather than your collective mechanical identity.   There is something inside you that is not inside others, and is not of this world.

All  humans "recognize" themselves in the mirror, it's just that what they recognize is a collective identity and their recognition is just an act.  Humans are great actors.   Around the Buddha many humans arrived and played the new game of being Buddhist, or of being awakened, or spiritual .... what great new games for the imitating monkeys to play.

Buddha was not like them, he had something inside he that was not inside others.   He was not acting.

The imitating nature of human beings, coupled withe terror of being one few who is not imitating, leads to great confusion false dawns false wisdom false teachings and deep suffering of humans.   

 

Maya, meaning illusions, deceit, magic, pretense.   And in this soup, many that have potential are lost.

 

Which leads to certain conclusions about what one needs to do.

 

[dawei]

22 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

The question of good and evil are very ancient.  Even in the western world this question is at least 3000 years old as far as we know.  So here goes. a good starting point to keep thinking about this kind of stuff is this is your hobby.  good luck.

 

"`What is good and what is evil?'; Philosophers of all ages have thought over this question. Each reckoned that he had solved the question once and for all, yet within a few years the problem would re-emerge with new dimensions. In fact, most of the answers would be later found inadequate or unsatisfactory. Religious thinkers also joined in presenting a solution in this regard but only added confusion. The Qur'an also offers a solution to this question and an effort will be made to explain it later in this dissertation."

 

http://www.al-mawrid.org/index.php/articles/view/good-and-evil-1-views-of-the-philosophers

 

IMO, philosophy is a bad basis to talk about good and evil.  That's just a mind construct.  Once you are faced with it at an energy point of view, you realize something different.  The duality way of explanation misses their unity.