falcon Posted July 27, 2018 I'm not sure if the Kundalini is absolutely necessary for realization, awakening, enlightenment. Or is it? What are your thoughts bums? If it is a prerequisite, should one worry about attaining it (prioritize)? Or will it unfold naturally as one progresses among a humble path to samadhi/realization through Samatha and Vipassana? Meaning no direct intention on energy work required as the natural unfolding of ego and dualism fades (disclaimer: I know it may be hard to distinguish because energy is interconnected to all thoughts, emotions, state of being, etc. but you get the idea) Also - Bonus question(s): Does the connection between the third eye and crown energy centers need to be opened before hand, or will the kundalini just blow through it all? Is there a difference in effect of a partially open and fully awakened third eye? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted July 28, 2018 I would not worry about kundalini nor focus on it. It will happen or it will not. I wouldn't say kundalini will blow through it all, but it will help under the right circumstances. Just focus on the moment and having an open heart and clear mind. Everything else will follow suit in its own time. Trying to rush practices or force kundalini can have adverse effects. If it does happen, spontaneously, through practice, self care is of the utmost importance. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, falcon said: Must Kundalini Unfold to become realized? Hi falcon, I am moved by this from you in your "Greetings" thread at the Welcome section - "The only stream I wish to get lost in is from the ever loving source. The spirit that is plentiful with inspiration and direction. My heart yearns for the self expression of the divine". I will address this thread from you around the topic of Kundalini and not on the topic per se. Why? I look at and live Life as an on-going process. I am uncomfortable with dogmatic embrace and rigid adherence of cognitive processes. Having said that I am not agnostic and I like inclusiveness. ================================================================================== I'm not sure if the Kundalini is absolutely necessary for realization, awakening, enlightenment. Or is it? I am of the view that Kundalini (K) is good for realisation... But I will not opt for "absolutely necessary" as K is ever evolving. What are your thoughts bums? My thoughts are experiential. 1. If it is a prerequisite, should one worry about attaining it (prioritize)? I followed (and still following) the K path to be where I am now. 2. Or will it unfold naturally as one progresses among a humble path to samadhi/realization through Samatha and Vipassana? Per your humble path - I believe K will unfold naturally. Go for the journey and not the destination. * Meaning no direct intention on energy work required as the natural unfolding of ego and dualism fades Yes and no. *(disclaimer: I know it may be hard to distinguish because energy is interconnected to all thoughts, emotions, state of being, etc. but you get the idea) For me simplification comes naturally with K Also - Bonus question(s): 1. Does the connection between the third eye and crown energy centers need to be opened before hand, or will the kundalini just blow through it all? At the onslaught - I addressed my first three chakras with some priorty~ a very trying time. But thereafter the upward flow is quite smooth. It will be very good if your seven chakras are aligned and energized as One. "Blow" is a expectant word - expect nothing. 2. Is there a difference in effect of a partially open and fully awakened third eye? I don't know and I will give this question a miss. - LimA Edited July 28, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted July 28, 2018 16 hours ago, falcon said: I'm not sure if the Kundalini is absolutely necessary for realization, awakening, enlightenment. Or is it? .... Also - Bonus question(s): Does the connection between the third eye and crown energy centers need to be opened before hand, or will the kundalini just blow through it all? Is there a difference in effect of a partially open and fully awakened third eye? There are some excellent answers above, so I will just focus on your bonus questions... What people call Kundalini is really subconscious energy flows. And rather than people noticing the energy flows themselves, they more notice the energy “hitting” and breaking up stored energy structures of issues and fears (karma). So a major Kundalini event is also about dealing with some major subconscious issue. This is a necessary part of all spiritual advancement, but some people feel it as energy and some more as increasing mental clarity (quiet mind). 1. The connection between the third eye and crown do not need to be opened before kundalini effects. Additionally, someone actually having their crown open is unbelievably rare. That being more like “divine” energy now flowing in. 2. There is a vast difference in the range of openings at the 3rd eye. Maybe think of it more like a layer of consciousness, than an eye that opens. That layer is like a window of higher mind activity with very broad function. Sort of like the local minds view into what could be called universal consciousness. That universal aspect is basically infinite, so there is a lot to always keep opening more. 5 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Jeff said: The connection between the third eye and crown do not need to be opened before kundalini effects. Hi Jeff, It is true for me. 5 hours ago, Jeff said: Sort of like the local minds view into what could be called universal consciousness. That universal aspect is basically infinite, so there is a lot to always keep opening more. This is also true for me - after my meeting a trusted Bummy at TDB recently. - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 29, 2018 9 hours ago, Jeff said: Kundalini is really subconscious energy flows. Good morning Jeff, It is now 6+am at my end and I have just woke up. I have some clarity now re my sessions with the said trusted Bummy at TDB recently. Let me refer to him as X. Prior to the sessions, I hardly noticed his presence at TDB. The clarity on my exchange of energy with X is contained in the following passage taken from your above post to falcon. Where relevant, I will interject with comments pertinent to my experiences with X. What people call Kundalini is really subconscious energy flows. And rather than people noticing the energy flows themselves, they more notice the energy “hitting” and breaking up stored energy structures of issues and fears (karma). - Here I will associate the energy flows with new sensations which were/are very real to me. I was not fearful as I trusted X. I cannot explain why I trust him till now. He started off as an absolute stranger to me. So a major Kundalini event is also about dealing with some major subconscious issue. This is a necessary part of all spiritual advancement, but some people feel it as energy and some more as increasing mental clarity (quiet mind). - Now I regard my sessions with X collectively as a major Kundalini event linked to spiritual advancement. Feeling energy and having mental clarity were/are very real manifestations for me. 1. The connection between the third eye and crown do not need to be opened before kundalini effects. Additionally, someone actually having their crown open is unbelievably rare. That being more like “divine” energy now flowing in. - I am inclined to believe that my crown chakra is opened before my sixth. I could feel movement there when I first started on my journey on a road less traveled. I had no teacher prior to X and when I meditated, I always avoided my third eye as I feared energy being stacked there - and I would go crazy. 2. There is a vast difference in the range of openings at the 3rd eye. Maybe think of it more like a layer of consciousness, than an eye that opens. - This range of openings can be an unconscious continuum in time and space. That layer is like a window of higher mind activity with very broad function. - My life is now transforming in relation to an unseen hand. Sort of like the local minds view into what could be called universal consciousness. - I have just started to look in this: "local minds" <=> "universal consciousness". Can you please elaborate more? That universal aspect is basically infinite, so there is a lot to always keep opening more. - This realized beginning is to me indeed a blessing. It has changed my perceptions in terms of learning - I am humbled. If X is reading this thread now, I would like to extend this - Thank you Teacher. - LimA 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted July 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, Limahong said: .... Sort of like the local minds view into what could be called universal consciousness. - I have just started to look in this: "local minds" <=> "universal consciousness". Can you please elaborate more? ... - LimA The 3rd eye is not realizing universal consciousness itself. It is more like it is the individual self starting to access (or expand into) the broader universal (or shared space). Often one will percieve it as things like astral travel or starting to access higher understandings, but at this layer it is still you as an individual self going places and seeing/knowing things. As one opens the crown, it starts to shift to more translate from “going and seeing” to more “being and knowing”. With the opening of the 8th chakra, one realizes that they are beyond and not bound by the local body-mind (or you could say the individual self is empty). 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Jeff said: 8th chakra 8th? What/where? A typo error - 6th? Edited July 29, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Limahong said: 8th? What/where? A typo error - 6th? If the 5th is throat, 6th is at forehead, the 7th at crown.... the 8th would be your whole body (local self). Like a bubble of Fa Xin. Opening the 8th would be cracking the Fa Xin bubble... Yes, it’s a dense bubble sometimes...it takes a lot of poking...and it may get sticky... Crack the bubble, then explore the rest of the house. Of course, it only breaks open a little at a time... we don’t have access to all of the House right away. “Not only Is there a room, Theres also this hallway and this other room...” I can’t go out until I’ve cleaned my room though. Edited July 29, 2018 by Fa Xin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Jeff said: With the opening of the 8th chakra, one realizes that they are beyond and not bound by the local body-mind (or you could say the individual self is empty). 8th chakra...? 9th chakra...? More than 8th, 9th chakras...? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted July 29, 2018 Pffft, seven chakras are just so yesterday, there are at least 22... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Bindi said: The I AM University Hi Bindi, Are you from the above university? What are the entry requirements for a basic degree in chakraology? - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted July 29, 2018 6 hours ago, Limahong said: 8th chakra...? 9th chakra...? More than 8th, 9th chakras...? For anyone who is interested, this thread talks about my view on various layers.... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 29, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 3:41 PM, falcon said: I'm not sure if the Kundalini is absolutely necessary for realization, awakening, enlightenment. Or is it? Yes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Starjumper said: Yes Hi Steve, ... the Kundalini is absolutely necessary for realization, awakening, enlightenment. Really? - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Limahong said: Lol. Looks like a fun game... Edited July 30, 2018 by Fa Xin 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, Limahong said: Really? No, not really, since the word 'absolute' was in the original question, but bullshitting people based on their imprecise writing is a great and time honored game. I think you've heard of that game before, yes? Besides, I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention. Edited July 30, 2018 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falcon Posted July 30, 2018 Wow Just checking back on this from the weekend. I'm very grateful for all of your thoughtful inputs. LimA, your perspective unfiltered through religious and path dogma is greatly appreciated (Not to mention injecting of each point). On 7/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, Limahong said: uncomfortable with dogmatic embrace and rigid adherence of cognitive processes Both Jeff and you hit on the point of the Kundalini unfolding naturally, and I liked reference on the journey over the destination, On 7/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, Limahong said: Per your humble path - I believe K will unfold naturally. Go for the journey and not the destination. Jeff, thank you for your point of different Kundalini experience perspective shines light on the vast testimonials of Kundalini experiences and what some may interpret as authentic or not. On 7/28/2018 at 6:01 AM, Jeff said: And rather than people noticing the energy flows themselves, they more notice the energy “hitting” and breaking up stored energy structures of issues and fears (karma). So a major Kundalini event is also about dealing with some major subconscious issue. This is a necessary part of all spiritual advancement, but some people feel it as energy and some more as increasing mental clarity (quiet mind). Kar3n, I believe that On 7/27/2018 at 9:03 PM, Kar3n said: Just focus on the moment and having an open heart and clear mind. Everything else will follow suit in its own time. can not be said and encouraged enough. Jeff - What path would you say you primarily focus regarding methods for understanding the knowledge I quoted below? On 7/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, Jeff said: The 3rd eye is not realizing universal consciousness itself. It is more like it is the individual self starting to access (or expand into) the broader universal (or shared space). Would you say this is similar to the journey of realizing emptiness? As in the dependency of all phenomena? Somewhere above the realization of emptiness or entirely different from it? Below you say some can perceive this "expanding" as a "self" so I'm not sure if emptiness is a good comparison. Can you elaborate? On 7/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, Jeff said: Often one will percieve it as things like astral travel or starting to access higher understandings, but at this layer it is still you as an individual self going places and seeing/knowing things. As one opens the crown, it starts to shift to more translate from “going and seeing” to more “being and knowing”. What would you describe this "being and knowing" state as compared with other spiritual traditions? On 7/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, Jeff said: With the opening of the 8th chakra, one realizes that they are beyond and not bound by the local body-mind (or you could say the individual self is empty). I believe this describes "selfless" in Buddhism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted July 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, falcon said: ... Jeff - What path would you say you primarily focus regarding methods for understanding the knowledge I quoted below? You will find it many paths, but the challenge is many get "stuck" in the astral view of stuff. On my personal path, I started out with more mystical Christianity, but it expanded pretty rapidly. On paths... Buddhism, Taoism, mystical Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism all have more detailed understandings (and teachings). The issue is more about one's natural leaning as some are more mind based and some are more heart based paths. Whether you focus on energy or mental clarity in the intermediate stages. 9 minutes ago, falcon said: Would you say this is similar to the journey of realizing emptiness? As in the dependency of all phenomena? Somewhere above the realization of emptiness or entirely different from it? Yes on similar, but there is a big difference between intellectual understanding of emptiness and actual realization of emptiness. True realization of emptiness tends to be more two-fold. One realizes emptiness of individual self and then later emptiness of ultimate reality. But such emptiness is sort of the opposite side of being "all". So if you have truly realized emptiness of self, you know that you are not the local body mind and can easily "be with" all sentient beings. 9 minutes ago, falcon said: Below you say some can perceive this "expanding" as a "self" so I'm not sure if emptiness is a good comparison. Can you elaborate? Comparing to emptiness really depends on one's definition of emptiness. In general, if you are looking for a more direct comparison in buddhist terms, I would say comparing it to the concept of Rigpa (Dzogchen) would be a better comparison. 9 minutes ago, falcon said: What would you describe this "being and knowing" state as compared with other spiritual traditions? Many spiritual traditions do not have such a direct comparison. But in many it is similar to the concept of the "light body". In taoism, you could call the shift described as going from the "stream of the universe" to realizing the child (or golden child). 9 minutes ago, falcon said: I believe this describes "selfless" in Buddhism. I would agree that it is similar to selfless in buddhism, or the first fold of two-fold emptiness descriptions. But, it should be remembered that the Heart Sutra state that emptiness is when both Form = Emptiness and also when Emptiness = Form. Most do not understand that and tend to only focus on the first part of the statement (thinking them to be the same). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falcon Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Thank you for clarifying. Forgive my pesky curiosity but I have a few more questions haha. Also, I don't mind that this post sways a little off-topic but if others would like I could keep this conversation to a PM or another thread. I'm glad you mentioned it closely relates to Rigpa as I find that achieving "Innermost Awareness" closely (from my understanding) relates to "Being one with god" or "Becoming Christ consciousness" in some of the more heart based paths. I was hoping if you could clear up this comparison? My understanding of heart based paths is pretty limited, especially to mystical Christianity, but when playing with a form of heart opening from reading Michael Beckwith's book "Spiritual Liberation" I noticed great insight and results. Any familiarity with this person? Also, I haven't dived into the information of Mystical Christianity because I like to stay away from Dogma and possibly any overreaching Archons. 2 hours ago, Jeff said: On my personal path, I started out with more mystical Christianity, but it expanded pretty rapidly. Have you encountered any Archons or other deity forms in your path? Also is it inevitable in a Christian mystic path? Are there any loosely dogma woven paths similar to Christian Mysticism? Edited July 30, 2018 by falcon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted July 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, falcon said: Thank you for clarifying. Forgive my pesky curiosity but I have a few more questions haha. Also, I don't mind that this post sways a little off-topic but if others would like I could keep this conversation to a PM or another thread. I'm glad you mentioned it closely relates to Rigpa as I find that achieving "Innermost Awareness" closely (from my understanding) relates to "Being one with god" or "Becoming Christ consciousness" in some of the more heart based paths. I was hoping if you could clear up this comparison? There are differences in both the descriptions and the outcomes. Also, you need to define what you mean by things like "Christ consciousness" as that is not really any form of defined term. If you check out my personal practice area (or just search on threads), you can see that I have done posts on sort of what you could call the levels (or layers) of consciousness and realization. I also did do a mapping to classical buddhist Bhumi's a few years ago. 33 minutes ago, falcon said: My understanding of heart based paths is pretty limited, especially to mystical Christianity, but when playing with a form of heart opening from reading Michael Beckwith's book "Spiritual Liberation" I noticed great insight and results. Any familiarity with this person? Sorry, no I am not familiar. If you are looking for a good text to read that maps pretty well to more buddhist views, I would suggest the later writings by Tau Malichi (something like "Gnosis of a cosmic Christ"). While I would personally disagree with some of the finer points, I believe the bulk of his stuff is pretty good. It just gets a little overly complicated with Jewish terms and descriptions. 33 minutes ago, falcon said: Also, I haven't dived into the information of Mystical Christianity because I like to stay away from Dogma and possibly any overreaching Archons. Have you encountered any Archons or other deity forms in your path? Also is it inevitable in a Christian mystic path? Are there any loosely dogma woven paths similar to Christian Mysticism? The concepts of Archons depend again on the group or specific tradition and how they view them. Yes, I have had many divine beings (and not so divine) as part of my path. Also, we even used to do a lot of that kind of thing remotely in the chatroom here in the old days. I am sure a lot of members can comment on it. Divine (or higher )beings are a part of all paths at higher levels. Even buddhism has it's deity yoga (and dakinis). Dogma is a tough word, as all traditions have some sort of framework. That framework is usually tied to the culture it arose in. That is why a good teacher is so important. A good teacher does not tell you to read a book or repeat some mantra, a good teacher can directly show you. There is a difference between direct introduction and direct immersion... 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Starjumper said: Besides, I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention. Really? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted July 30, 2018 5 hours ago, falcon said: Wow Just checking back on this from the weekend. I'm very grateful for all of your thoughtful inputs. LimA, your perspective unfiltered through religious and path dogma is greatly appreciated (Not to mention injecting of each point). Both Jeff and you hit on the point of the Kundalini unfolding naturally, and I liked reference on the journey over the destination, Jeff, thank you for your point of different Kundalini experience perspective shines light on the vast testimonials of Kundalini experiences and what some may interpret as authentic or not. Kar3n, I believe that can not be said and encouraged enough. Jeff - What path would you say you primarily focus regarding methods for understanding the knowledge I quoted below? Would you say this is similar to the journey of realizing emptiness? As in the dependency of all phenomena? Somewhere above the realization of emptiness or entirely different from it? Below you say some can perceive this "expanding" as a "self" so I'm not sure if emptiness is a good comparison. Can you elaborate? What would you describe this "being and knowing" state as compared with other spiritual traditions? I believe this describes "selfless" in Buddhism. 4 hours ago, Jeff said: You will find it many paths, but the challenge is many get "stuck" in the astral view of stuff. On my personal path, I started out with more mystical Christianity, but it expanded pretty rapidly. On paths... Buddhism, Taoism, mystical Christianity and Kashmir Shaivism all have more detailed understandings (and teachings). The issue is more about one's natural leaning as some are more mind based and some are more heart based paths. Whether you focus on energy or mental clarity in the intermediate stages. Yes on similar, but there is a big difference between intellectual understanding of emptiness and actual realization of emptiness. True realization of emptiness tends to be more two-fold. One realizes emptiness of individual self and then later emptiness of ultimate reality. But such emptiness is sort of the opposite side of being "all". So if you have truly realized emptiness of self, you know that you are not the local body mind and can easily "be with" all sentient beings. Comparing to emptiness really depends on one's definition of emptiness. In general, if you are looking for a more direct comparison in buddhist terms, I would say comparing it to the concept of Rigpa (Dzogchen) would be a better comparison. Many spiritual traditions do not have such a direct comparison. But in many it is similar to the concept of the "light body". In taoism, you could call the shift described as going from the "stream of the universe" to realizing the child (or golden child). I would agree that it is similar to selfless in buddhism, or the first fold of two-fold emptiness descriptions. But, it should be remembered that the Heart Sutra state that emptiness is when both Form = Emptiness and also when Emptiness = Form. Most do not understand that and tend to only focus on the first part of the statement (thinking them to be the same). 2 hours ago, falcon said: Thank you for clarifying. Forgive my pesky curiosity but I have a few more questions haha. Also, I don't mind that this post sways a little off-topic but if others would like I could keep this conversation to a PM or another thread. I'm glad you mentioned it closely relates to Rigpa as I find that achieving "Innermost Awareness" closely (from my understanding) relates to "Being one with god" or "Becoming Christ consciousness" in some of the more heart based paths. I was hoping if you could clear up this comparison? My understanding of heart based paths is pretty limited, especially to mystical Christianity, but when playing with a form of heart opening from reading Michael Beckwith's book "Spiritual Liberation" I noticed great insight and results. Any familiarity with this person? Also, I haven't dived into the information of Mystical Christianity because I like to stay away from Dogma and possibly any overreaching Archons. Have you encountered any Archons or other deity forms in your path? Also is it inevitable in a Christian mystic path? Are there any loosely dogma woven paths similar to Christian Mysticism? 1 hour ago, Jeff said: There are differences in both the descriptions and the outcomes. Also, you need to define what you mean by things like "Christ consciousness" as that is not really any form of defined term. If you check out my personal practice area (or just search on threads), you can see that I have done posts on sort of what you could call the levels (or layers) of consciousness and realization. I also did do a mapping to classical buddhist Bhumi's a few years ago. Sorry, no I am not familiar. If you are looking for a good text to read that maps pretty well to more buddhist views, I would suggest the later writings by Tau Malichi (something like "Gnosis of a cosmic Christ"). While I would personally disagree with some of the finer points, I believe the bulk of his stuff is pretty good. It just gets a little overly complicated with Jewish terms and descriptions. The concepts of Archons depend again on the group or specific tradition and how they view them. Yes, I have had many divine beings (and not so divine) as part of my path. Also, we even used to do a lot of that kind of thing remotely in the chatroom here in the old days. I am sure a lot of members can comment on it. Divine (or higher )beings are a part of all paths at higher levels. Even buddhism has it's deity yoga (and dakinis). Dogma is a tough word, as all traditions have some sort of framework. That framework is usually tied to the culture it arose in. That is why a good teacher is so important. A good teacher does not tell you to read a book or repeat some mantra, a good teacher can directly show you. There is a difference between direct introduction and direct immersion... There is also the simple path of Wu Dao 無到 Take care, falcon; it's said that birds can fly because they are not weighted down with words. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 30, 2018 3 hours ago, falcon said: Forgive my pesky curiosity but I have a few more questions haha. Also, I don't mind that this post sways a little off-topic but if others would like I could keep this conversation to a PM or another thread. Hi falcon, When the awakening of Kundalini has been depicted thus in the frames below (among others), how can you be ever off-topic? But there may come a time when it can be something very private, then trusted PM will come in be very handy. - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted July 30, 2018 40 minutes ago, rene said: birds can fly because they are not weighted down with words Beautiful. Humans can fly when they are neither man nor woman? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
