To those who plan to join "traditionaltao" and those affected by it.

[Gamuret]

I've moved the post to a new topic.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Gamuret

[sheng zhen]

while he give out something that is no product but is completely free and natural for us all. It's like stealing something and then selling it back to the same person for money.

If you are able to meditate and belly breath and by doing that learn to do xing sheng zhuan Im willing to pay you money to learn your technique! But if you knew you wouldnt bother with these posts...would you...

 

If you are able to achieve what the masters are able to do by doing meditation and belly breathing, or by reading something on the internet that you got for free, then I would pay you money to learn how you do it. But I guess if you were able to do that, then you wouldnt bother with posting here.

 

If xing sheng zhuan is free and natural for you then you wouldt bother posting here. If its natural for all of us, why dont we all know it allready? The thing is all these things, teachings and techniques are not natural. The natural condition for people in this world is not at the level of the masters. If it were so then all people would have no trouble achieving it. The thing is that most people have trouble achieving the natural state and they need a teacher. If you know a teacher or a method that can help you with this, why bother picking on other teachers?

 

If you find a good teacher then it is worth paying for. If you value it you pay for it. Money is a value-system. If you value somthing you want, you would gladly pay for it. Man, its that easy. I guess the thing is you really really want to learn these things, and you want it for free. But wake up man, if you get it for free, then you wouldnt value it as much either.

 

If you dont value it, then why bother getting it? Why bother with it? Some people by small and ugly purses for thousands of dollars! Isnt that crazy? But they value it and gladly pay as much as is needed to get it. Do you go around on their forums telling them they are wasting their money?

 

If you want xhin sheng zhuang for free there is a zhineng gong site giving the method step by step. But is that really what you want? Now that you know XSZ it is for free, do you value it as much as Davids teachings? You seem to want Davids teachings and you seem to actually put a lot of value into what he is teaching. Otherwise you wouldnt spend that much time researching the whole world wide web for information.

 

And you seem to have the opinion that he should teach it to you for free. But isnt that a little egocentric?

 

Now, Im not a student of David. But I recognize these money issues from other systems Ive been in. When people get high level things for free they wont see the value and quickly jump to other techniques. One other thing Ive noticed is that if it is cheap, people really put themselves in danger because they dont have the foundation to deal with the high energycurrents of the teachings. Many people get psychotic because of this. Ive seen lots of cases. Being able to pay, to deal with their physical and financial life is a very smart way to enshure that the people coming to the teaching are people that can deal with it. To me this is a sign of authenticity and honesty.

 

One more thing. I noticed Chanwu say that getting rich means taking money from many and keep it for himself. This can only be true if there is a limited amount of money in the world. But is it limited? I dont think so. And does he really TAKE money from many, or does he GIVE something in return? As I said before, if you dont value what he teaches, dont bother with it. And if you value it, deal with it.

[Wayfarer64]

I am happy that Sean D. has at least-(at last)- learned how to comport himself in a civilized manner of late. If his training has helped him become a more fair-minded and less rude person to those he discusses these issues with, than of course all the many thousands of $$$ were well worth it .

 

Seekers are many, & those who may be able to help them are pretty many as well. Lets hope they find each other and the world becomes a better place in which to live .

 

I for one would never pay someone else to help me find what is inherently mine to begin with, and intrinsically by its very nature something I need no help in finding. In fact I believe most "help" would be counter productive in many instances...

 

Stop striving and let yrself become naturally whole, almost letting yrself heal in a way, stay healthy and open to change and practice all and any systems that seem apt to improve yr path-finding. But caviat emptor with the big-ticket sales pitches, most do not ring true to my ear...

 

With Peace in my heart -namaste

[Oolong Rabbit]

>>Like I've said, I have no problem with folks needing to pay the mortgage. But when you indoctrinate someone into a belief system and then use that belief system against them when they don't toe the line, that's a cult.<<

 

Where you got that from Buddy?

 

I have seen controlling behaviour on that forum. People chastised for saying something that goes against the grain. People being told to remove links. Threads and posts being censored and deleted. People told they couldn't post links to some external sites such as the one with pictures of Wang Liping etc... Then look at the behaviour when the Jiang videos were leaked. It was freakishly bizarre. Anyone who has been on that forum knows what I am talking about. Some of the foundation people have actually even gone so far as trying to get Sean O to censor and remove posts on Tao Bums that they find disagreeable.

 

Chanwu,

 

Why in heaven do you so much care about something that does not really affect you? You are not interested in it and you don't pay. No reason to vent your anger on something that shouldn't even be touching you. Energy could be better spent with something else I honestly feel.

 

He is allowed to have an opinion, and from what I read it looks like a pretty informed and well expressed opinion. It doesn't look at all like he is "venting his anger". Again you are trying to subtly attack and discredit him. Lastly, I disagree that it does not affect him, but let's say for argument's sake that it doesn't. Does that mean he should have no concern or compassion for others who will be affected? If I see someone about to jump off a building, should I just let him jump? If I drive by a car accident, should I not bother trying to help, because I am not directly affected? That is symptomatic of what is wrong with this world.

 

You want to protect people from "it", fine. Seems to be a nice thing to do. But I feel it is of absolutely no benefit to go into length into enumerating all things you do not like if you by no means have been affected yourself, do not know what is being discussed behind the scenes (you just have your landscape of "extenal picture" and quite a few things of what you raise as "problematic" are discussed and have solutions) and so many other things.

 

I think it is immensely helpful for uninformed people to have his objections listed. The same way a well written book or movie review can help guide one to make a better informed decision on what to watch or read.

 

Really guys. In psychology one would very likely say you are projecting something here... (Oolong. Is this again a wicket try to make Chanwu look like the "bad" or "silly guy"? No intent Chanwu!)

 

Yes, it is.

 

So. I would very much be happy if you leave the discussions of the topics at hand to those who are indeed affected (if at all).

 

 

Harry

 

I am sure you would.

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah that http://traditionaltao.com is very interesting. When David Verdesi states this:

 

"The significance of this accomplishment has many important implications for the student and their spiritual development, but, in simple terms, this accomplishment gives the practitioner the ability to issue a current of qi which feels like a continuous electrical shock to anyone he or she makes physical contact with; a rare achievement for a Daoist practitioner and unheard of for a western practitioner."

 

Well I've done that before -- except I would not separate "electrical shock" from "magnetic field."

 

Like when I pulled this old lady's spirit out of her head -- without touching her -- she bawled for at least 15 minutes straight. That was after I had finished the 8 day bigu full-lotus training -- just half a glass of water and lots of small universe practice.

 

Anyway qigong master chunyi Lin who gave me energy transmissions is charging $880 for a weekend seminar in L.A. this spring --- qigong master Jim Nance will be there as well. So you get two qigong masters -- still it's a lot of money, at least in Minnesota! haha. L.A. is different I guess.

 

I really like the book on Ch'an master Tsung Tsai -- "Bones of the Master: A Journey to Secret Mongolia" -- stresses the "empty awareness" and not the power transmissions.

 

It's just a matter of how much you store up your energy versus letting the energy full in and out of you -- into people around you.

[Stigweard]

I have heard that in ancient times some traditional masters would accept a portion of gold for their teachings. If you can become wealthy naturally, virtuously and without any waste or extravagance then by all means be wealthy. By being wealthy an achieved one can extend their virtue to reach more people. In saying this, however, I believe a teacher should never depend on their students for material support.

 

A deeper lesson we are observing here is that by making claims, not only are you opening yourself up to attack and criticism, you may indeed be violating the purity of your self-nature.

 

TTC Ch 24

 

One who stands on tiptoe cannot stand firmly.

One who strides cannot walk far.

One who flaunts himself is not illumined.

One who insists that he is right is self-righteous.

One who boasts of his accomplishments undoes his merit.

One who takes pride in himself impedes his own growth.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[sunshine]

>>Yes, it is.<<

 

See Oolong. I perceive it as follows: you have formed a certain opinion about me and there is absolutely no way that I could say anything without you finding a way to put what I say in the "he wants to discredit you"-box. I personally keep with my perception that you WILL ALWAYS find the negative BECAUSE you WANT to find the negative. Now that I stated it I won't repeat it and leave it as that.

 

You talk about controlling behavior on the forum. To make that pretty clear: I have not always been happy witht he decisions made there and have not always been happy with some statements or responses. But to put things into straight light: It was a forum created for a clear intent. It was a moderated forum with a clear statement of what it is all about and what does not belong there. If people do not stick to the rules they have to live with the result. Simple as that. By the way: I have been close to being banned from the forum. So. Just in order to make clear that I know both sides of the coin!

 

Further. The forum was moderated by one, maybe two or three. Even if their behavior were to be "discussed as possibly being cultish" your extension to consider the group as cult-like... you sure get my point.

 

The decisions of contacting Sean O were pretty much personal decisions. I was politely asked to contact Sean and I did so not because I was pressured or whatever. There was no try of mine to censor Sean from my side but I asked him if you could reconsider his decisions. What others did is up to them but once again does not speak for the group of students who often are only losely connected.

 

>>He is allowed to have an opinion, and from what I read it looks like a pretty informed and well expressed opinion. It doesn't look at all like he is "venting his anger".<<

 

Sure enough he is allowed to have an opinion. And it is well expressed indeed. "pretty informed" so far as what he could gather from the discussions here and there. Lacking the insights from the discussions I mentioned taking place somewhere else. Further filtered by his perception. Quite natural and once again no way to "subtly" do whatever...

 

>>If I see someone about to jump off a building, should I just let him jump? If I drive by a car accident, should I not bother trying to help, because I am not directly affected?<<

 

See Ooolong. I understand all of the concerns raised, and there are people I have been interacting with in recent times who from my point of view at least have a right to have concerns and further have valid concerns. Just having concerns for the sake of having concerns does not necessarily belong into that category. In Chanwus case I do not see that though... what I see though is the try to discredit something he has no true understanding of, as -once again-, his informations are limited and in several instances were not properly put into context. Regarding your above examples: they just do not represent the aspect at hand well enough to go into other implications they actually have,

 

>That is symptomatic of what is wrong with this world.<

 

Symptomatic of the world is that people care about things outside of themselves too much thereby scattering their mind into many directions and leading away from themselve. First clear your own yard before judging anothers... this is what I try to stick to.

 

>>I think it is immensely helpful for uninformed people to have his objections listed. The same way a well written book or movie review can help guide one to make a better informed decision on what to watch or read. <<

 

Uninformed people will have to find things out for themselve if they want to get close to any level of truth. I have read a lot of book or movie reviews that were far from what my own experience finally told me. If you really do trust in them you are missing out a lot.

 

>>I am sure you would.<<

 

Indeed I would.

 

 

Harry

[Buddy]

"No one on the outside can know whether this or Kunlun or Falun Gong or anything else is "the real deal" or is a "bullshit cult" or anything in between."

 

Or the People's Temple of Jonestown? Or the Branch Davidians? Or the Heaven's Gate folks? I don't mean to be sensationalistic, but people would be alive today if there were more discussion about those cult by folks from "the outside."

[sunshine]

"No one on the outside can know whether this or Kunlun or Falun Gong or anything else is "the real deal" or is a "bullshit cult" or anything in between."

 

Or the People's Temple of Jonestown? Or the Branch Davidians? Or the Heaven's Gate folks? I don't mean to be sensationalistic, but people would be alive today if there were more discussion about those cult by folks from "the outside."

 

 

It is pretty likely they would have found a different way.

 

Buddy: what are your criteria for declaring something a cult?

 

thankx

 

Harry

[gendao]

Verdesi does have the top masters in the world, however I disagree with his business model.

I think there's 3 separate issues here:

 

1) The Taoist lineages themselves - which most people do seem to find quite authentic and powerful. (Except for maybe the "Red Bull" energy boosts.) So, this is David's ace-in-the-hole.

2) David's attempts to commercialize these into Western business models. Where, the seemingly high-end fees and hidden costs have raised a few eyebrows...

3) "Cultish" attempts at control. With great power does come great responsibility. So, it is understandable that Prometheus might give fire to mortals with some conditional safeguards attached. But, where exactly does this line get drawn?

 

For example, I wonder if the $250 for forum access might also conveniently function as a "cultish" control mechanism? If it is non-refundable, then it would be a great way to keep people in line (otherwise they risk losing their access and $250). Of course, this is pure speculation and it's his forum, so he can charge whatever the hell he wants for it.

 

 

Personally, I remain interested in his findings due largely to the strength of his masters and lineages. But, 2 & 3 do give me a little pause and almost a slightly Faustian vibe. Which is not to say that they are indeed "Faustian" or "exploitative." Or that he should give a rat's ass how I feel.

 

So, I still remain open-minded and would reserve any actual judgment until I tried it out for myself. Because just because it's not cheap - doesn't automatically mean it's not worth it, either. Although frankly, I'm not even sure money is the biggest hurdle here - I'm more worried about the time, personally. If this path requires 4 hrs or more of practice per day for years...well, that's not a commitment to be taken lightly. It almost requires a monastic lifestyle and an independent stream of income. Honestly, $250 is NOTHING compared to sincerely dedicating 4 hrs per day of your life for years!

Edited February 3, 2008 by vortex

[Buddy]

"sun,"

"I was politely asked to contact Sean and I did so not because I was pressured or whatever. There was no try of mine to censor Sean from my side but I asked him if you could reconsider his decisions."

 

You were "politely asked" to get Sean to reconsider what decision? If he would allow free expression on his board?

 

"Just having concerns for the sake of having concerns does not necessarily belong into that category."

 

And you decide this how?

 

"In Chanwus case I do not see that though... what I see though is the try to discredit something he has no true understanding of, as -once again-, his informations are limited and in several instances were not properly put into context. "

 

 

So, how much does he have to pay before he can complain?

 

 

"Symptomatic of the world is that people care about things outside of themselves too much thereby scattering their mind into many directions and leading away from themselve. First clear your own yard before judging anothers... this is what I try to stick to."

 

You jumped into this yard, I guess yours is clean?

 

 

"Uninformed people will have to find things out for themselve if they want to get close to any level of truth. I have read a lot of book or movie reviews that were far from what my own experience finally told me. If you really do trust in them you are missing out a lot."

 

Your compassion for the great unwashed and "uninformed" must be a great comfort to you, Harry. I'm reminded of a story.

 

A pandit was traveling with a companion in a boat. He heard the unmistakable yet incorrect cries of one of his order. This fellow was chanting, "OO-Wah-hoo." This mantra (correctly and faithfully applied) was supposed to give one great siddhis and the ability to transcend the laws of nature.

Chagrined at his brothers error, he had the boatman steer toward the sound. He found the sadhu in the forest and told him, "Brother, the correct mantra is, "Whhhahey UU Wah Hoo."

The sadhu was overjoyed and thanked him. On his way back in the boat he still heard the unmistakable cry of. "OO-Wah-hoo" and shook his head and chuckled.

Just then then sadhu came up running across the surface of the water shouting, "Brother, I'm sorry, I forgot what you told me!"

[sunshine]

>>You were "politely asked" to get Sean to reconsider what decision? If he would allow free expression on his board?<<

 

Not that way Buddy. It had nothing to do with not allowing free expression on his board. If Sean wants to give his impression about me contacting him I am glad if he will.

 

>>And you decide this how?<<

 

Same way that is utilized to create the negative picture that has been painted.

 

>>So, how much does he have to pay before he can complain?<<

 

As you know he is complaining already. So you know he does not have to pay a penny.

 

>>You jumped into this yard, I guess yours is clean?<<

 

Unfortunately not. But as he is attacking something that is dear to me, I feel to be in the position to have a right to give a response.

 

>>Your compassion for the great unwashed and "uninformed" must be a great comfort to you, Harry.<<

 

I don't understand the above statement, buddy. language-barrier here. But if I get your story right: In that story there was one who knew the truth and helped a fellow. How can you help one if you do not know the truth?

 

 

Harry

[Gamuret]

Hello!

 

I've been quietly following this on and off debate around David Verdesi for quite some time. I don't want to enter into any philosophical, ideological or other discussions. I also don't intend to pass any judgement, because time will sooner or later tell or at least give an indication about the true nature of D. Verdesi's work.

 

The thing that I do want to do is to put forward some thoughts and I'd really be interested to hear answers, containing facts. No philosophy, religious history or similar please - just plain, old facts.

 

Apart of seeing it at the new Verdesi-website, I noticed in many places that D. Verdesi is referred to as Dr. Verdesi and introduced as being an anthropologist.

 

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

 

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

 

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

 

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

 

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

 

What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions?

 

At the new Traditionaltao website it's also being said (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1):

 

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

 

With which major universities and hospitals in China and the US exactly did David Verdesi do his collaborative research? Where can one access the results of these researches i. e. peer-reviewed journals, etc.?

 

I'm really interested to get feedback from folks who might know these things.

 

Gamuret

[Buddy]

"In that story there was one who knew the truth and helped a fellow. How can you help one if you do not know the truth?"

 

No, Harry. You missed the point of the story. But, as you say, there might be a language barrier.

[vitagong]

If I was offered to attend the training for free and the class was held next door I still would not be interested in it.

 

So many of you are fixated on the money aspect of training, to me this is the most minor issues of the overall picture of this organization. I do believe that David has good intentions, however the direction and path which the group is taking is a manifestation of there own weaknesses and gaps in initial development. So I dont see it as right or wrong, but just unfortunate as so many are been affected.

 

My truth and experience is that nothing can be given to you apart from correct method, the rest is up to you, your will and strength and your fate as to how long and how far you reach in your spiritual development.

 

There is no need for the bulls, this is the path for those who want to short cut or do not have the strength.

 

There is nothing like going thru the whole process of making something yourself, the process enriches you in so many ways and so many levels. It allows you to trually be responsible and correct with power.

 

David now says that he has reached YinYang Gong or Nei Gong, thanks to the bulls. However its misleading to creat the picture that this is equivelant to the now legendary Level 4. Its also dishonest to constanly use the credibility of John Chang as a draw card. You have been playing with fire in your marketing.

 

There are many many other things too, however my intention is not to Hurt the organization, but rather urge it to be more honest thru all its levels so that it may grow the correct way.

[Stigweard]

Excuse me for sounding ignorant (I seem to be quite adept at doing so) but am I right in my understanding that they are killing bulls as a means of healing and spiritual cultivation??

 

Please explain...

[Gerard]

I appreciate the kind post. I should be mentioned that Jiang and Liping do charge. For Liping, the government demands payment for his time, especially for foreigners.

 

Since when spiritual practice needs to be subdued to Government demands?

 

 

Again, I understand this idea of taking money for spiritual practice being taboo in the States; or anywhere for that matter. It will likely always be viewed suspiciously by some. The Chinese view it as a test of sincerity and determination; as well as intelligence to have the ability to master money and demonstrate an acceptable level of aptitude in the material world.

 

Money=metal, which is the base of alchemy.

 

I find this very insincere. For example:

 

"My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it

a 'den of thieves.'" (Matthew 21:13)

 

Btw, Wang Liping didn't have to pay a single cent for his training.

 

 

When I was studying with Liping, he said he really wants the teachings to spread. That's why he is writing a book with David to share some of the basic outer teachings openly. For those who reach a good level, doors will open.

 

Wang Liping is a Buddhist and a Daoist. Many Daoist lineages have produced living Buddhas, just as prolifically as Buddhism the formal religious entity. Wang Liping is a Buddha on a par with Padmasambava, but he doesn't go around making claims, he doesn't need to. And he can demonstrate all the powers of a Buddha not just talk about it. The point is not to make silly comparisons to show one is better than another. Daoism is Dharma, only people with limited understanding see a distinction.

 

I wonder what the real goal of Wang Liping is:

 

Helping others to reach enlightenment or helping others to develop siddhis.

 

Maybe his real goal is number one but his apprentices are only after number two. Therefore I would take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.

 

Please be honest with yourselves because karma is not something to be taken lightly.

[vitagong]

Since when spiritual practice needs to be subdued to Government demands?

 

Boxer rebellion, Communism, Red army.

 

I remember when I was travelling around mountain regions in China and visiting various Temples, I would come accross elders who would tell me terrifing storys of the Red Army coming to there Temples. Thats why now these Masters are either fully tucked away in the mountains out of reach or abiding to the government. Do you really hink the Government want the chinese people to have power again when they had to fight those with it so hard. Hence Wang Li Pings predicament. Only money talks in China. The commercialization of tibet and shaolin has already taken place, Wudang was well on its way last time I was there.

[vitagong]

Excuse me for sounding ignorant (I seem to be quite adept at doing so) but am I right in my understanding that they are killing bulls as a means of healing and spiritual cultivation??

 

Please explain...

 

 

Yes this has been a part of there method, but only for some including David. The death of the bull is a result of there Qi been drawn from them and used to fill there own Dan Tien. They also rely on empowerments given by the Masters.

[voidisyinyang]

When you say "chi" from the bulls I think you mean actually jing or electrochemical yin energy -- the life force. That's weird. The other day I had a pineal gland stare down with this parrot I've known for years as he sits in a bookstore. He's usually confident and mean but after we stared at each other he started shivering all over. This reaction actually surprised me. It may have been different if he was a she-bird. haha.

 

If you're taking in yin electrochemical energy and not shooting out yang light-bliss energy back to the bull, then David must be keeping his eyes closed during this process -- meditating and making sure his yang electromagnetic energy stays focused in his body, either by bouncing it off his hands, as Yan Xin teaches, or by focusing his intention on his heart, etc.

 

Yeah that seems kinda lame to steal life force from animals but sure as hell explains the whole ritual slaughter thing in religion, not to mention the Freemasonic wars....

[Stigweard]

Yes this has been a part of there method, but only for some including David. The death of the bull is a result of there Qi been drawn from them and used to fill there own Dan Tien. They also rely on empowerments given by the Masters.

 

YIKES!!! Call 911!!!

 

*runs screaming out the door*

[Gerard]

Since when spiritual practice needs to be subdued to Government demands?

 

Boxer rebellion, Communism, Red army.

 

I remember when I was travelling around mountain regions in China and visiting various Temples, I would come accross elders who would tell me terrifing storys of the Red Army coming to there Temples. Thats why now these Masters are either fully tucked away in the mountains out of reach or abiding to the government. Do you really hink the Government want the chinese people to have power again when they had to fight those with it so hard. Hence Wang Li Pings predicament. Only money talks in China. The commercialization of tibet and shaolin has already taken place, Wudang was well on its way last time I was there.

 

 

True. But it's also true that there are three levels of Taoists:

 

1. Jing level. They cultivate the jing.

2. Qi. They cultivate the qi. Martial Artists.

3. Shen. They cultivate the spirit. Bodhisattvas.

 

You can see here which category will transcend Governments. Gautama Buddha did and Jesus was tortured by the Jews.

[sunshine]

Hi Vitagong,

 

>>I do believe that David has good intentions, however the direction and path which the group is taking is a manifestation of there own weaknesses and gaps in initial development. So I dont see it as right or wrong, but just unfortunate as so many are been affected.<<

 

Thankx Vitagong for pointing out what you do. One thing though. I assume you and so many others have the idea that the foundation forum with its members represents all of David students. This is not so. So speaking about "the direction and path of THE" group needs a clear differentation. Further most of the criticism focusses on two or three people which CLEARLY DO NOT represent each individual student. Many have not even visited the forum in the past, if they ever actually registered.

 

>>My truth and experience is that nothing can be given to you apart from correct method, the rest is up to you, your will and strength and your fate as to how long and how far you reach in your spiritual development.<<

 

Good for you if it turns out to be true.

 

>>There is no need for the bulls, this is the path for those who want to short cut or do not have the strength.<<

 

Now. I have no clue what your spiritual background is and what "truth" you have reached in your practice. To state "there is no need ..." is speaking from a pretty authorotive place, putting it here as objective truth and fact.. How many of us have reached such a place? So. To make that clear. I am still one of those students who have probably the most issues with the "bull-story" (or maybe I am just one of the fews who actually voiced their thoughts about it). My fellow students know and my teacher knows! But even considering this one has to keep a straight picture here: not everybody "needs" the bull's Qi and not everybody gets it. Simple as that. Most of us, I assume, do not have true insights about the rules outside of this dimension. Now I know some will want to jump in and say: "Harry. Why are you so sure these masters know." And my honest answer is once again: "I don't, but I believe it."

 

>>David now says that he has reached YinYang Gong or Nei Gong, thanks to the bulls. However its misleading to creat the picture that this is equivelant to the now legendary Level 4. Its also dishonest to constanly use the credibility of John Chang as a draw card. You have been playing with fire in your marketing.<<

 

What you state above needs clarification, as the story is a little different:

1. David has reached the Yin Yang Gong without the need for the bulls.

2. Interesting how we all filter informatioon differently. From all that I gathered David is pretty clear about that it is different!

3. John Chang: I have wondered myself a little... it is important to state one thing though: David holds John Chang very high and speaks most highly of him. All bits of information running round the net claiming they have deep troubles are to certain extent rumours. The topic has been mentioned, there seem to have been some issues and there seems to have been a lot of blackmailing going on behind the curtains. At the end of the day it is up to John Chang and David to know what it is all about.

 

>>There are many many other things too, however my intention is not to Hurt the organization, but rather urge it to be more honest thru all its levels so that it may grow the correct way.<<

 

So far there is no "organization" in a specific sense. If you address the "honesty" please do not address the group but those who "speak it". Further: while there is a danger of drifting into a cult (as with groups there likely to certain extent always is) and whatever this has not taken place from all I saw so far, accept you define a cult just by the criteria of a group with certain believes and views that do not conform to major religious orthodox thinking. There is no talk about a doomsday and a world-end-view etc. which is usually the problematic part and Buddy with his examples wanted to hint at that. Do some students express a kind of worshipper personality. Likely some do. Quite natural with so many students. Is it a reflection of the group? Not as far as I so far managed to evaluate. Do I have trouble with such a mind-set. Indeed I do.

 

 

Harry

Edited February 3, 2008 by sunshine

[HouTian]

My 2 Cents worth.......

 

Theres nothing wrong with paying for Powers,thats fine just so long as you obtain something.

 

But What can any of Dr verdesi's students do ? Nothing is the answer,not 1 single thing.

 

One student in particular is a Classic Example. He has trained with everybody from Kosta Danaos,Mantak Chia,Wang liping ,even tried scientology at one stage so im told. Still, this individual is incapable of producing any tangible form of energy or otherwise. This guy should be able to fly & walk on water by now in my opinion.

 

Can any students produce electical currents ? Externalize Chi ? Basic Ironshirt skills even at minimum ? Nope.

 

So whats the 8 Grand for then ?

 

If David Shen had to pay Shifu Jiang over 100 Thousand Dollars then why would anyone else even consider studying His system. It becomes quiete obvious that david is incapable of producing-cultivating the power Himself thru his own methods and thats why he was forced to pay for a transfer....Duh !

 

Number 2 : Why did David not pay Wang Liping for an energy transfer ? Could it be that master Wang is a pure traditionalist & scoffs at this idea like the rest ?

 

I was told According to Indonesian Students of a well known teacher that it is spiritually illegal to charge for the real thing. The real thing cannot be bought. Heaven does not have an Entry Fee.

 

Regards,

Goenarso.