To those who plan to join "traditionaltao" and those affected by it.

[sunshine]

I do not know which student of David you specifically refer to, but I have a clue. Let me ask you: How do you expect a one, a two, a even a three year student to achieve something which "masters" achieved only after many many years of practice and most often under much better practice conditions that we face today?

 

And listing all he has done before David can hardly be taken as a sign against what David teaches... or I am missing the point.

 

Now. What can any of David students do: How many of them do you know?

 

>>It becomes quiete obvious that david is incapable of producing-cultivating the power Himself thru his own methods and thats why he was forced to pay for a transfer....Duh !<<

 

I already stated in an earlier post that the story is different. David cultivated the power himself through the methods he was taught. He wasn't forced to pay for the transfer... and, while not going into details why he got it, for what he achieved and cultivated it was not necessary.

 

>>Why did David not pay Wang Liping for an energy transfer ? Could it be that master Wang is a pure traditionalist & scoffs at this idea like the rest ? I was told According to Indonesian Students of a well known teacher that it is spiritually illegal to charge for the real thing. The real thing cannot be bought. Heaven does not have an Entry Fee.<<

 

So many speak of "THE" traditional way. I personally assume that there has never been "ONE" specific traditional way... but always different ways of approaching matters at hand. And as someone once said: sometimes it is necessary to focus on beyond what seems to be directly under your nose. None of us buys the entrance to heaven the way you put it.

 

 

Harry

[sheng zhen]

I was told According to Indonesian Students of a well known teacher that it is spiritually illegal to charge for the real thing. The real thing cannot be bought. Heaven does not have an Entry Fee.

Someone mentioned Jesus in an above post. Its funny how he is mentioned in every discussion about money and spirituality. He is not a good example, to say the least. Just look what happened to the church and the movement he started. Is the church a true spiritual and free-of-money-insitution? Did the movement Jesus started make the world a better and more peaceful place? I think not.

 

I believe a lot of masters teach for free becaue they only want to serve with a pure heart. But when people with an impure heart starts to demand to have the knowledge for free, then the whole thing would quickly be corrupt and loose its spiritual value.

[Chanwu]

This view I agree with a lot!

 

And yes, level 4 doesn't take 6 months of meditation to gain back as he claim, when he had done initiations in China - according to the story I read on the foundation forum.

 

 

 

If I was offered to attend the training for free and the class was held next door I still would not be interested in it.

 

So many of you are fixated on the money aspect of training, to me this is the most minor issues of the overall picture of this organization. I do believe that David has good intentions, however the direction and path which the group is taking is a manifestation of there own weaknesses and gaps in initial development. So I dont see it as right or wrong, but just unfortunate as so many are been affected.

 

My truth and experience is that nothing can be given to you apart from correct method, the rest is up to you, your will and strength and your fate as to how long and how far you reach in your spiritual development.

 

There is no need for the bulls, this is the path for those who want to short cut or do not have the strength.

 

There is nothing like going thru the whole process of making something yourself, the process enriches you in so many ways and so many levels. It allows you to trually be responsible and correct with power.

 

David now says that he has reached YinYang Gong or Nei Gong, thanks to the bulls. However its misleading to creat the picture that this is equivelant to the now legendary Level 4. Its also dishonest to constanly use the credibility of John Chang as a draw card. You have been playing with fire in your marketing.

 

There are many many other things too, however my intention is not to Hurt the organization, but rather urge it to be more honest thru all its levels so that it may grow the correct way.

[Chanwu]

Someone mentioned Jesus in an above post. Its funny how he is mentioned in every discussion about money and spirituality. He is not a good example, to say the least. Just look what happened to the church and the movement he started. Is the church a true spiritual and free-of-money-insitution? Did the movement Jesus started make the world a better and more peaceful place? I think not.

 

Oh, what Jesus taught and what people made it into are two very different things. Christianity today is a blasphemy, if you allow me to generalize/talk about the majority of so-called christians. I do believe Jesus existed and was a kind and loving man, with the compassion of a buddha.

 

He wasn't the "heaven or hell" or "you're with me or against me" kind of type, now was he? Just pure compassion for others...

[sunshine]

And yes, level 4 doesn't take 6 months of meditation to gain back as he claim, when he had done initiations in China - according to the story I read on the foundation forum.

 

Who said that level 4 takes only 6 monthes to achieve?

[Chanwu]

Who said that level 4 takes only 6 monthes to achieve?

 

I said "to gain back".

[vitagong]

Hi Sunshine

 

Hi Vitagong,

 

>>I do believe that David has good intentions, however the direction and path which the group is taking is a manifestation of there own weaknesses and gaps in initial development. So I dont see it as right or wrong, but just unfortunate as so many are been affected.<<

 

Thankx Vitagong for pointing out what you do. One thing though. I assume you and so many others have the idea that the foundation forum with its members represents all of David students. This is not so. So speaking about "the direction and path of THE" group needs a clear differentation. Further most of the criticism focusses on two or three people which CLEARLY DO NOT represent each individual student. Many have not even visited the forum in the past, if they ever actually registered.

 

I am unsure what you mean by this but I mainly refer to David as he is the Head

 

>>My truth and experience is that nothing can be given to you apart from correct method, the rest is up to you, your will and strength and your fate as to how long and how far you reach in your spiritual development.<<

 

Good for you if it turns out to be true.

 

Thank you, and if its not then I will accept that it was not my time yet

 

>>There is no need for the bulls, this is the path for those who want to short cut or do not have the strength.<<

 

Now. I have no clue what your spiritual background is and what "truth" you have reached in your practice. To state "there is no need ..." is speaking from a pretty authorotive place, putting it here as objective truth and fact.. How many of us have reached such a place? So. To make that clear. I am still one of those students who have probably the most issues with the "bull-story" (or maybe I am just one of the fews who actually voiced their thoughts about it). My fellow students know and my teacher knows! But even considering this one has to keep a straight picture here: not everybody "needs" the bull's Qi and not everybody gets it. Simple as that. Most of us, I assume, do not have true insights about the rules outside of this dimension. Now I know some will want to jump in and say: "Harry. Why are you so sure these masters know." And my honest answer is once again: "I don't, but I believe it."

 

David needed the bull? I dont know but he used the bulls, thats all I do know from what has been written. Taking Qi from other living things to reach higher, well, its not for me. Did David trually put in the time and effort to make his achievment without the need for this method, only his heart knows.

 

I dont question that this method is possible, however I do question why

 

>>David now says that he has reached YinYang Gong or Nei Gong, thanks to the bulls. However its misleading to creat the picture that this is equivelant to the now legendary Level 4. Its also dishonest to constanly use the credibility of John Chang as a draw card. You have been playing with fire in your marketing.<<

 

What you state above needs clarification, as the story is a little different:

1. David has reached the Yin Yang Gong without the need for the bulls.

2. Interesting how we all filter informatioon differently. From all that I gathered David is pretty clear about that it is different!

3. John Chang: I have wondered myself a little... it is important to state one thing though: David holds John Chang very high and speaks most highly of him. All bits of information running round the net claiming they have deep troubles are to certain extent rumours. The topic has been mentioned, there seem to have been some issues and there seems to have been a lot of blackmailing going on behind the curtains. At the end of the day it is up to John Chang and David to know what it is all about.

 

1) So David diddnt use the bulls? before or after is really not that important.

2) I am sure that he is clear that it is different, but in his new website biography and in verious posts in forums it is made out that he did reach the same thing (level 4 as in the Magnus of Java book)

3) Davids relationship with John Chang is none of my business, and I have made no comments in regards to this. I have purly said what I have said.

 

>>There are many many other things too, however my intention is not to Hurt the organization, but rather urge it to be more honest thru all its levels so that it may grow the correct way.<<

 

So far there is no "organization" in a specific sense. If you address the "honesty" please do not address the group but those who "speak it". Further: while there is a danger of drifting into a cult (as with groups there likely to certain extent always is) and whatever this has not taken place from all I saw so far, accept you define a cult just by the criteria of a group with certain believes and views that do not conform to major religious orthodox thinking. There is no talk about a doomsday and a world-end-view etc. which is usually the problematic part and Buddy with his examples wanted to hint at that. Do some students express a kind of worshipper personality. Likely some do. Quite natural with so many students. Is it a reflection of the group? Not as far as I so far managed to evaluate. Do I have trouble with such a mind-set. Indeed I do.

 

I dont see the big deal about using the word Organization. Its better that using the word cult which I have not. It is an organized group of people with a head, sub heads, and money transfering.

 

[sheng zhen]

Oh, what Jesus taught and what people made it into are two very different things.

Exactly! That is my point. And when it is free many people make it into many different things. You see?

 

The thing is every techer must decide for himself what he whants. If he decides to give it for free, then he must be ready to take the consequenses, which is deterioration and corruption of the teaching over time(unless he demands complete and total dictatorship of all following the teaching). If he decides to take money for it, or somehow make it harder for people to attain(by hiding from publicity), then the teaching would be conserved in its pure form and withstand the test of time. This is why the secresy of many mystic paths, why taoists write in code language. The teachings are too valuble to deteriorate by allowing the impure of heart to take it for free and do what they want with it.

[Chanwu]

Please don't mention high level practioners/masters and others in the thread - I never made this a post about them.

 

I feel mentioning them in this context is degrading and disrespectful.

 

My post is simply about that I want people to think carefully before spending 50000 USD for DV's system.

 

If you are honest about your respect for the masters and high level practioners who D.V. has come in contact with, please leave them out of this because this is not about them.

[sunshine]

>>I said "to gain back".<<

 

I assume you refer to the "need for the bulls"... if yes then no. There was no talk about "gaining back" level 4 in 6 monthes.

 

>>David needed the bull? I dont know but he used the bulls, thats all I do know from what has been written. Taking Qi from other living things to reach higher, well, its not for me. Did David truely put in the time and effort to make his achievment without the need for this method, only his heart knows.<<

 

See. David did not "suck" the bull. The "story" goes that one of the grandmasters did the transfer. Why he did it I do not know. There was an explanation given but I know too little to go into details.

And yes. Once again: The "story" goes that David achieved what he achieved and the bulls came thereafter.

 

When discussing these things and people arguing about it I am reminded of a Chinese proverb:

One seeing is better than a thousand hearing.

 

Only those that did what they did if any do actually know. All else is pure speculation.

 

>>I am sure that he is clear that it is different, but in his new website biography and in verious posts in forums it is made out that he did reach the same thing (level 4 as in the Magnus of Java book)<<

 

I just checked. This is a question to ask those who created the webside. I have a different understanding but I might be wrong. Maybe it indeed is but I am sure to remember that David pointed out differences.

 

I apologize for having put things into my post I introduced with addressing you while in my mind referring to others.

 

And yes. Organization sure is a better word than cult. I just have a different idea of what an organization actually is.

 

thankx for the exchange

 

to all:

I stop here. I have voiced my concerns and I think a lot of the info being spread is not reflecting the actual situation and the actual happenings. Not that I am surprised that it happens. Have seen that happening often. I am well aware that all could be fake and all of the voiced concerns could 100% be valid. I am a natural skeptic and carry around a heavy bag of doubts and also quite a few experiences. Contrary to most of you though I am a student of David and I actually have met him and many long-year students.

 

One seeing is better than a thousand hearing.

 

won't continue to respond further.

 

 

Harry

[Oolong Rabbit]

Exactly! That is my point. And when it is free many people make it into many different things. You see?

 

The thing is every techer must decide for himself what he whants. If he decides to give it for free, then he must be ready to take the consequenses, which is deterioration and corruption of the teaching over time(unless he demands complete and total dictatorship of all following the teaching). If he decides to take money for it, or somehow make it harder for people to attain(by hiding from publicity), then the teaching would be conserved in its pure form and withstand the test of time. This is why the secresy of many mystic paths, why taoists write in code language. The teachings are too valuble to deteriorate by allowing the impure of heart to take it for free and do what they want with it.

 

Most here have no problem with a teacher charging a reasonable fee so that they can make a living. Getting rich off the backs of your students is quite another. Keep in mind that money goes much further in China than it does in the west. So raking in $100 000 a year (and I think I am lowballing here) , would be more like $500 000 in equivalent terms. I think Sean even wrote that Jiang lives in a mansion with marble floors and enjoys the best of everything money can buy.

 

Also if you want to talk about the teachings getting corrupted, which do you think would corrupt them sooner: giving away the teachings to a sincere student or selling the teachings to any knucklehead who is willing to pay your outrageous fees? For what its worth, the money isn't the main issue for me. It's just one of several things that put me off. Like one of the other posters, I wouldn't go down this path if it was offered to me for free.

[sheng zhen]

Most here have no problem with a teacher charging a reasonable fee so that they can make a living. Getting rich off the backs of your students is quite another. Keep in mind that money goes much further in China than it does in the west. So raking in $100 000 a year (and I think I am lowballing here) , would be more like $500 000 in equivalent terms. I think Sean even wrote that Jiang lives in a mansion with marble floors and enjoys the best of everything money can buy.

 

Also if you want to talk about the teachings getting corrupted, which do you think would corrupt them sooner: giving away the teachings to a sincere student or selling the teachings to any knucklehead who is willing to pay your outrageous fees? For what its worth, the money isn't the main issue for me. It's just one of several things that put me off. Like one of the other posters, I wouldn't go down this path if it was offered to me for free.

Well, its true that giving away the teaching to knukleheads that can pay will corrupt the teaching faster than giving it to one ore two sincere students. But if its going to available to many people, then the teacher would decide who is sincere enough and not. And then we would have pretty the same situation as we have here. People would speak out their opinion on forums about how stupid that teacher is because he finds some people more worthy than others.

 

But in this discussion it depends on how you look upon money. If you have trouble with money then you will have trouble with people charging money. If dont have trouble with money you will gladly pay what you feel it is worth. If you dont feel it is worth it you happily go to someone you feel is worth your money.

[宁]

since the early recorded history, spiritual and religious temples were loaded with wealth and power. even to these days, the situation is simmilar. i know this may be unpalatable to some, but this is just how things are. im not the one to try and change the world.

[voidisyinyang]

The relation of Jing to Shen is interesting. The Taoists texts state that alchemy begins and ENDS with jing or lead -- aka "negative vitality." This is because the shen is powered by the chi which in turn is powered by the jing and so the shen must be shot back into the lower body to build up my jing. Shen is called "negative spirit" but when it gets built up enough it becomes "positive spirit" -- or the corporeal soul -- another physical body, as the new jing energy.

 

When enables this process is "essential nature" or "empty awareness" or pure consciousness -- what I call "female formless awareness" at the root of the heart-mind.

[Buddy]

So it sounds like you're saying a physical process must be completed. How does the Vedantist or Dzogchen idea of "the ground of reality" is already there and only the realization of that fact is necessary?

[voidisyinyang]

That's an excellent question. For example the students of Sri Ramana Maharshi often don't actually take his teaching seriously and by this I mean read his teachings closely. I studied all his books at the U of MN Ames S. Asian library. As he's considered the avatar of Shiva in teaching Advaita Vedanta his experience really tells all. In fact Sri Ramana Maharshi spent 9 years in solitude (or just with a few other practitioners) before he finally achieved "eternal liberation" by "cutting the knot" -- wherein his heart actually stopped for over 10 minutes. He writes about this in the book "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi." Yet his followers will not admit that it was only after Sri Ramana Maharshi had physically killed himself and then started his heart up again that he became a "jnana." There is no denying this as Sri Ramana Maharshi states it was only at that moment he achieved eternal liberation and also he, David Godman, and H.W.L. Poonjaji state that there's only 6 jnanas on earth at any one time. Sri Ramana Maharshi also created other physical bodies -- just as H.W.L. Poonjaji did and I highly recommend the biography of advaita vedanta master Poonjaji called "Nothing Ever Happened" by David Godman.

 

As for Buddhism -- I recommend Master Nan, Huai-chin's books which cover the gamut of mahayana buddhism and essentially teach the same thing -- that the 8th level of consciousness (the universe) is only "emptied out" after the first five levels of consciousness (the body).

 

So in Advaita Vedanta you rely on left-brain logical inference which connects the vagus nerve directly to the heart -- that's why it's called the direct path(in contrast to right-brain visualization and body yoga asanas). But since you're only using mind yoga that means it requires separation for females because otherwise your sublimated energy will get sucked up by their yin energy (unless you're practicing full-lotus -- then you can have a yin-yang exchange as tantra). That's why the Brahmin vedanta priests required 3 days of ritual cleansing if they had any contact with females and also why there was such a repressive society.

[Gerard]

One student in particular is a Classic Example. He has trained with everybody from Kosta Danaos,Mantak Chia,Wang liping ,even tried scientology at one stage so im told. Still, this individual is incapable of producing any tangible form of energy or otherwise. This guy should be able to fly & walk on water by now in my opinion.

 

Can any students produce electical currents ? Externalize Chi ? Basic Ironshirt skills even at minimum ? Nope.

 

So whats the 8 Grand for then ?

 

If David Shen had to pay Shifu Jiang over 100 Thousand Dollars then why would anyone else even consider studying His system. It becomes quiete obvious that david is incapable of producing-cultivating the power Himself thru his own methods and thats why he was forced to pay for a transfer....Duh !

 

Number 2 : Why did David not pay Wang Liping for an energy transfer ? Could it be that master Wang is a pure traditionalist & scoffs at this idea like the rest ?

 

I was told According to Indonesian Students of a well known teacher that it is spiritually illegal to charge for the real thing. The real thing cannot be bought. Heaven does not have an Entry Fee.

 

Regards,

Goenarso.

 

 

Let me add something to this statement:

 

In the spiritual path the more you seek something the less you'll achieve.

 

Seeking in terms of obsession as an expression of the ego.

 

 

I believe a lot of masters teach for free becaue they only want to serve with a pure heart. But when people with an impure heart starts to demand to have the knowledge for free, then the whole thing would quickly be corrupt and loose its spiritual value.

 

I know what you mean. But it's an easier way than that. Don't teach to those who look for something tangible.

 

I could become public: start teaching, publish books, make films, etc., but really I rather seek my own Buddhahood and when I achieve it then teach for free the moral aspect of the path. No siddhis, stay away from them as they are a nuisance, corrupt our minds and enlarge our non-existing egos.

[Pietro]

...

As for the other accusations, in the entire forum history we banned two people; and only after days of negative ranting on their part. We simple wish to be among fellow students and those like-minded; and for those who share are interests and like the idea of online training and getting their questions answered, it not such a huge deal.

 

I don't know about the people banned, but I wasn't permitted to join. Does this makes 3?

[Gamuret]

Pietro, you mean you were not permitted to join the "Foundation-Training"-forum set up by Sean Denty?

 

Did they give you any reasons why your presence was not desired?

 

G.

[Pietro]

Pietro, you mean you were not permitted to join the "Foundation-Training"-forum set up by Sean Denty?

 

Did they give you any reasons why your presence was not desired?

 

G.

Hello "Gamuret",

please read this whole thread:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=3121&hl=

and pay very much attention to when has each post been re-edited. Up to the point of writing on a piece of paper the order of the dates in which they had been posted, comparing it to the dates when they had been re-edited.

 

Understand that on the side of this there was a huge exchange of PM going on, as well as emails and phone calls to and from David with his student(s).

 

After all this I was not allowed to join.

Pietro

[Gamuret]

[Buddy]

Then there's "Nixon in China."

[dao zhen]

Hey Guys,

 

The forum attracted a number of young people and individuals in a low income bracket who were and are very sincere..............

 

The masters that David works with include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status. They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.

 

 

Dear friends of Tao:

 

I am sorry for posting here.

 

But the above statement is not true.

 

I live and study in China.

 

From my experience in speaking with other Taoists - those in a standard sect and living in a temple area such as "Wudang Purple Heaven Temple, Huashan Jade Spring Temple, Louguantai Terrace, or Baiyunguan White Cloud Temple" or those Taoists who are part of a sect and not living in a temple, but live in the city, many do not think highly of Wang Liping, and in fact there are many Taoists who think he is a fake, false, and the book he wrote is a lie in order to promote himself and be able to charge large amounts of money to foreign students for workshops.

 

The above is not my opinion.

 

I can say nothing as I have not met him.

 

But I am repeating what other Taoists who have much experience have said.

 

Teacher Wang Liping is not responsible for overseeing all Taoist Temples in China.

 

To my knowledge (which is very limited), the governing political body for Taoism in China is the Taoist Association in Beijing based at Bai Yun Guan - White Cloud Temple - www.bjbyg.com

 

I am very good friends with a senior monk there who is a 19th Generation Dragon Gate Disciple, and has official position in the temple - I will ask him if he would post something to state the structure of Taoism in China, and who oversees what.

 

His name is Teacher Qiu Yuanxing and is a very respected Taoist in China, and well known in Taoism circles.

 

Another point is that within the Taoism Association of China, the current President and leader is Master Ren Fa Rong, who is the abbot of Louguantai Terrace; who I saw and visited with during my stay there this January.

 

I was under the impression the President of the Taoism Association was in charge of such tasks; but I could be wrong.

 

These are all political things, and have some relationship with the Chinese Government.

 

There are many Taoists who train and practice seperate from this whole organization also in Dao Guan - Training Center for Dao - and these are usually small community of students and teacher in a rural and remote area, with no support from the Taoist Association or the Chinese Government.

 

I always felt Teacher Wang Liping was in the above catagory, and not related in any way to the Governing Political Bodies in China which manage temples and the like.

 

Temples by the way are very public, and have tourists and the like visiting them; at least the famous ones do.

 

I have never met Teacher Wang Liping, and am sure he has some very valuable things to share.

 

I mean no disrespect to him or what he teaches here.

 

I just want to clarify a very strong statement that was made, which would paint a picture that one individual has a very strong power and influence in the Taoism world in Mainland China.

 

There are many people involved in governing the Taoism world in China, and many, many different respected teachers here and also many different lineage branches.

 

Just my observations from living in China, and being an observer of Taoism here.

 

Best of luck in your study and practice.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

 

PS. check my photo gallery. i only have two weeks to post here, but i am trying to put many photos from China up that can paint some small picture of things that i have seen; though there is so much more.......

[Cameron]

I don't have anything bad to say about David Shen or any of his teachers as I just don't know.

 

I met Sean Denty and he seemed like a sincere student. I am looking forward to hearing Joeblasts and any other TB's feedback from the training.

 

Regarding anyone being the head of all Taoist sects. From what Max told us in Scottsdale the Mao Shan clan definetly does not follow other sects outside of Mao Shan. The order Max is a master in appears to be a high level order of Taoist Wizards. From what I understand Max was about to get the full traditional transmission from his Mao Shan Master before something went bad with Max's teacher. Which I won't go into here.

 

In any case, maybe Sean could change his statement to many Taoist teachers respect and listen to Master Wang Liping rather than him being responsibe for overseeing all Taoist temples in China. It's within the realm of possibility I am wrong, but from what I was told doesn't sound that Mao Shan would have the Master of another sect(Wang Liping being Dragon Gate) overseeing there temples.

 

Cam

[Cameron]

Doh, according to this article the Mao Shan Shang Ch'ing School of Taoism(one of Max's schools) is exctinct now in China. I guess that makes sense then for the Grand Master to have been in Hawaii.

 

Accoring to this article, the Mao Shan were the most mystical of all the Taoist sects. Also, they apparently liked to party

 

 

http://arahat.chaosmagic.com/hemp_worship_in_the_m.htm