To those who plan to join "traditionaltao" and those affected by it.

[sheng zhen]

Doh, according to this article the Mao Shan Shang Ch'ing School of Taoism(one of Max's schools) is exctinct now in China. I guess that makes sense then for the Grand Master to have been in Hawaii.

 

Accoring to this article, the Mao Shan were the most mystical of all the Taoist sects. Also, they apparently liked to party

http://arahat.chaosmagic.com/hemp_worship_in_the_m.htm

Hahaha, the "highest clairity school" were a bunch of stoned dudes, hahaha, divine irony

[DentyDao]

From my experience in speaking with other Taoists - those in a standard sect and living in a temple area such as "Wudang Purple Heaven Temple, Huashan Jade Spring Temple, Louguantai Terrace, or Baiyunguan White Cloud Temple" or those Taoists who are part of a sect and not living in a temple, but live in the city, many do not think highly of Wang Liping, and in fact there are many Taoists who think he is a fake, false, and the book he wrote is a lie in order to promote himself and be able to charge large amounts of money to foreign students for workshops.

 

The above is not my opinion.

 

I can say nothing as I have not met him.

 

But I am repeating what other Taoists who have much experience have said.

 

Teacher Wang Liping is not responsible for overseeing all Taoist Temples in China.

 

 

Hey,

 

What I'm sharing here is not common knowledge in China. Wang Liping does oversee the official goverment sanctioned curriculum for Daoist temples in China. That was my understanding from speaking with him personally; I will check and see if my statement is incorrect. He is not a public figure for many reasons.

 

Of couse he is not in the public eye and so people will say whatever they want based on their opinions of his book. He has long been a controversial figure among monks and in the temples. Lot's of juicy gossip. Time will tell; his influence may never really be revealed to the public as he does not wish to become famous any more than he already is.

 

Obviously, most if not all of my statements are meant to be controversial and oppose the Daoist main stream in China.

 

I'm not saying that Liping is in charge of every temple or that he personally enforces what is taught. Monks and lay people teach and practice many different things outside of what the government has established.

[Cameron]

Thanks for clarifying Sean.

 

So Liping is being established more as a figurehead for Taoist practice in China, is this correct?

 

I am just starting to make sense of all these different Taoist lineages. For example, Max's main lineage is really an underground one and not really taught publically until now. Master Tseng in Colorado is a Wudang priest and teaches publically but only teaches the high level alchemy stuff to students after getting to know them. He mostly just teaches healing and tai chi publically.

 

Regardless, that's an amazing achievment that you got to personally meet Wang Liping. I obviously don't know anything about official Chinese offices but guessing he is an authentic Master and not a fake as apparently some do?

[DentyDao]

Yes, he is. I'll write a little about it so people can get a clearer picture.

[dao zhen]

Hey,

 

What I'm sharing here is not common knowledge in China. Wang Liping does oversee the official goverment sanctioned curriculum for Daoist temples in China. That was my understanding from speaking with him personally; I will check and see if my statement is incorrect. He is not a public figure for many reasons.

 

Of couse he is not in the public eye and so people will say whatever they want based on their opinions of his book. He has long been a controversial figure among monks and in the temples. Lot's of juicy gossip. Time will tell; his influence may never really be revealed to the public as he does not wish to become famous any more than he already is.

 

Obviously, most if not all of my statements are meant to be controversial and oppose the Daoist main stream in China.

 

I'm not saying that Liping is in charge of every temple or that he personally enforces what is taught. Monks and lay people teach and practice many different things outside of what the government has established.

 

Dear Sean.

 

Thank you kindly for your letter and reply.

 

I hope you are in fine spirits.

 

I would like to state that I in no way wish to give any disrespect to any school or lineage of Tao.

 

I follow Tao, and I honor all schools and lineage.

 

The spirit of Tao is one of Virtue, Honor and Truth.

 

Dao Fa Zu Ren.......

 

The Great Dao Follows the Way of Nature.........

 

As a Taoist, I also seek to propagate and share truth.

 

Let the truth be a guiding light for us all.........

 

These are very strong statements you are making, and paint a very strong picture.

 

I personally will again state that I feel they are very untrue.

 

I understand you are a very excited student and are very proud to be studying under Teacher David Shen and Teacher Wang Liping.

 

I again wish to state, I am in no way wishing to give any disrespect to yourself, your Sifu Daivid Shen, and surely not to Master Wang Liping.

 

I personally really like the English translation of the book Opening the Dragon Gate.

 

It gives good teachings in the form of a novel.

 

I also think that it is important to not paint a picture that just from my personal experience here in China seems to be in no way close to the truth or even possible.

 

Here in Wudang there are two main sects:

 

The San Feng Pai and the Xuan Wu Pai.

 

Are they goverened by Wang Liping?

 

How about the Tian Sifu Pai - Heavenly Masters Sect of Lung Hu Shan in Jiangshi Provience, is that one covered by him also?

 

How about the two branches of Hushan Pai on Huashan Mountain?

 

The list can go on forever........

 

I think the whole lineage game in China becomes really complicated, and even silly at times.

 

From my own observation in China, temples have multiple lineage members residing within when I have visited, and the education for the Novice is given as such.

 

the Novice will have a Sifu within the temple, and that Sifu will instruct and guide him in the practice of Internal Alchemy and Qigong - IF he studies such subject.

 

In many temples members become Taoists to escape life, and they snoke, drink and do all sorts of things we would not consider, "Taoist".

 

Very few members in a temple in China train seriously.

 

They all know the basics, and have much knowledge on scripture and other arts that are the basics of the education, but as far as being serious pratitioners............

 

This is all just my observation.

 

Tomorrow or the next day, I will make some phone calls to members in the governing body I know, and we can see how things are organized and if there is a "standard" study curriculum.

 

I may be 100% and completely wrong here.

 

But let us ask some experts and outside sourses in China and see what they say.

 

With all of my very best.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

 

PS. Sean said: What I'm sharing here is not common knowledge in China. Wang Liping does oversee the official goverment sanctioned curriculum for Daoist temples in China.

 

I am shocked to see this, as the Government does not really support any sort of real training, and in fact they are trying to turn the holy mountains into theme parks - they even recently sponsored the building of speakers in the hills of Wudang to pipe in elavator music for the tourists! The Government shut down all Qigong hospitals and the like in Mainland China, and I know my teacher wants nothing to do with the Government and stays very hidden and underground.....

 

Sean went on to say........ Obviously, most if not all of my statements are meant to be controversial and oppose the Daoist main stream in China.

 

BUT......... if Sifu Wang Liping is working with the GOVERNMENT to oversee the GOVERNMENT sanctioned curriculum for Daoist Temples in China, then he IS part of the mainstream......

 

I am becoming a little confused by this......

 

If members wish, I shall contact my friends in the Taoism community and also my friends within the Governing Body of White Cloud Temple in Beijing, and post an official response from them here to gain a view from the source. Though they most likely would not answer anything in a direct way.

 

This would take a few days........

[DentyDao]

The government has apparently, from what I understand, chosen to endorse Wang Liping in an effort to 'promote' Daoism and set up formal standards for Daoist practice throughout China; this is all unfolding in the coming years. I would not be surprised if the officials you speak with have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

Never the less, I stand by what I have said and if I'm wrong I'll write here to correct my statements.

 

Again, I will try to write more about my experiences to help clarify soon.

 

I'm sure there are other masters who have much to offer in the temples of China and I'm sure there are teachings outside of the Long Men Pai that are very high. I'm not trying to suggest that Wang Liping is 'the' only authority on Daoism.

 

Again what I'm sharing is from the source, so wrong or right, that's what I heard from Wang Liping and I think he is pretty honest as far as living Buddhas go.

Edited February 10, 2008 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

I'll have to leave this one alone.

Edited February 11, 2008 by seandenty

[dao zhen]

Dear Sean.

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I have contacted my friends within the Taoism Association of China at White Cloud Temple today.

 

I have asked them to compose a letter which can shed light on the organization of Taoism within China.

 

I myself will also learn from this, so it is a good thing.

 

The topics I asked to be addressed in the letter are the following:

 

~ 1. List the way Daoism is governed in China.

 

~ 2. List who is the chief governor or president of Daoism in China.

 

~ 3. List who are the members in charge of governing Daoism Organizations in China.

 

~ 4. List who are the members in charge of governing Daoism Temples in China.

 

~ 5. List who is in charge of organizing the standard curriculum of study for Daoist Novice students in China residing in various Daoist Temples.

 

~ 6. List what is the role Mr. Wang Liping plays in the Lung Men Pai (Dragon Gate Sect), and his official role in governing Daoism in China.

 

In this way, we may see what is actually happening from people who are actual ranking Daoists in China, well known members of the Lung Men Pai, and are overseeing such things through their work in the Daoism Association of China.

 

I personally do not know the answers, and anything really I say is just guesswork from observation.

 

Which is why we may now gain the information directly from a reliable and known source.

 

I will post the official letter here when it is received, as they are reviewing it at this moment.

 

I think it will be good and interesting information for all of us.

 

With my best regards.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

[dao zhen]

[SFJane]

at the risk of appearing cynical I will say this. I am glad I have nothing to do with Taoism of any kind any more.

 

Among the many things I have dissolved, I dissolved my attachment to the *ism* as Buddy would call it.

 

Once I found myself and gained internal equilibrium I had become the practice and therefore no longer needed it as such. After dissolving my inner attraction to Taoism, all I was left with was these wonderful energy practices.

 

If I ever teach publicly I have decided to forgo calling my practices Water, Fire, Taoist,Buddhist, Tien Tai, whatever. It is what it is and nothing more.

 

These transmissions and lineages and sects and reinventions are nothing but a headache.

Edited February 11, 2008 by SFJane

[DentyDao]

Dear Dao Zhen (Jesse),

 

People are free to draw whatever conclusions they want to. I won't comment further.

 

To most Wang Liping is a fairy tale, as it should be.

[dao zhen]

Dear Sean.

 

Thank you for your letter.

 

I use my given taoist name Dao Zhen here, as it was given recently, and I like it.

 

Yes, my given name from my mother is Jesse.

 

My full given name is Jesse Lee Parker.

 

I was born in Austin, Texas, left home at 16 and now live in Wudangshan.

 

I state again, I mean no insult to you, or your teachers.

 

I state again, I do not know Teacher Wang Liping, and can not say.

 

Yet I do find it interesting that senior members of the Governing Body of All Taoism in China do not seem to hold Wang Liping in any high standing.

 

I hope that you may consider me a brother of Tao, and again, I wish you the best of success in your path of self cultivation.

 

I hope you may also share and help me to grow in any way you think proper.

 

I would like to caution you to make large claims, especially in relation to governing of Taoism and the like in China.

 

I think for myself, I am very interested in what you have learned or how you have grown from your experiences in your study under Mr. David Shen and Teacher Wang Liping.

 

For in the end it does not matter who is president of what.

 

What matters is if we grow, transform and make progress in the direction of Dao.

 

I am trying to share my little experience with my teacher by posting his lessons and lectures here to freely share with members.

 

Here is a doctrine on Yin & Yang Theory -

http://www.thetaobums.com/Doctrine-and-The...Yang-t4828.html

 

Here is a free download of an essay I wrote on the oral teachings from my teacher -

http://www.thetaobums.com/Taoist-Theory-an...hemy-t4793.html

 

Here is a meditation to unite heart/mind and breath -

http://www.thetaobums.com/Heart-Mind-Fasti...tion-t4817.html

 

My teacher does not cling to any external authority, rank or lineage.

 

Neither do I.

 

I stand by my own personal experience, my personal attainment and the strength of my personal practice.

 

I honor my teacher and guide for pointing out the path.

 

I walk down it on my own two feet.

 

I think it would be wonderful if you feel Teacher Liping has teachings to share that would help our growth, then please share - with the aim to enlighten our wisdom mind, and to dispell ignorance and improper ideas on practice.

 

I personally am not interested in one's rank or dealings with government.

 

I would like to know what his ideas on proper practice are, did you learn any profound theory to give you a new view of life and Dao?

 

These are the things I would like to share with each other.

 

I do hope you will respond to all of this.

 

I think it is a very good experience for all of us, and we may gain growth and insight.

 

With my respect and love.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen (((bow)))

[DentyDao]

As you wish Jesse,

 

What David offers is simple. Come as you are and rise a Knight. Confident and secure in the truth which cannot be shown or proven, but must be believed.

[dao zhen]

Thank you for your letter Sean.

 

I feel that the truth of a teaching, teacher and lineage is best shown in the behavior, virtue and or attainment of the students.

 

I think it would be wonderful if you feel Teacher Liping of Teacher David has teachings to share that would help our growth, then please share - with the aim to enlighten our wisdom mind, and to dispell ignorance and improper ideas on practice.

 

Share them freely, with the intention to aid in our growth and development.

 

Personally, so far it has been fighting that I have observed, excitement of observable powers,, expensive course programs, and a lot of secrecy.

 

I personally have many fantastical stories to tell that are above and beyond powers and sensations that one may observe in the corporeal realm - yet it is not really helpful for our growth to speak of such things.

 

I feel I do not need any further training or to seek another guide.

 

I understand very clearly how to practice properly.

 

This was put to the test almost 2 years ago, as I was struck by a speeding car, breaking my spine, crushing my knee, spliting my leg into two peices, and many other injuries.

 

It was said by the doctors that I would be bound to the hospital bed for 3 months, while the spine fused back together in a body cast.

 

Would I walk and run again?

 

It seemed the ability would come back in the right leg, but the left leg....maybe paralized.....maybe both....they just said they would know after the spine fused in a few months.

 

I wrote my teacher seeking advise and help in healing.

 

He wrote me a letter with one word of advise:

 

"Recover"

 

I realized, and awoke, and I recovered in 4 weeks - the ability to sit and move.....

 

Then came the difficult task of learning to walk again........

 

I was a walking miracle the doctor told me.

 

The teacher I have now is very profound, and has shown me a deep and high level of attainment.

 

Yet, I have also come to understand that means nothing.

 

The only thing that is important is what I personally become through my own efforts in self cultivation.

 

Only I can transform the environment within my heart.

 

Only through personal self efforts can I gain stillness of mind and transformation of heart.

 

So let us share our personal experiences in self cultivation, wisdom and guidance.

 

Let us also remember we should be family, as we share a common goal and aim.

 

We all are seeking to Gain Union With Dao.

 

I look forward to hearing your experience in practice.

 

Please share your insights.

 

With much love, dao zhen

[DentyDao]

Jesse,

 

Thanks for your kind words. What I wrote will remain as it is for people to see and consider. As I said Wang sifu is not a public figure and neither I nor David would make such claims.

 

I understand you disagree with Wang Liping's choice not to reveal these teachings to the public. He is as I said writing a book with David and this will contain some good outer teaching at a low cost, the price of the book.

 

I also get it that you were not pleased that the forum is now charging for membership. As a former member yourself, I think you know that the forum was open to the public for over one year free of charge. David asked that we close it so that we can begin to giving online teaching and charge a fair cost for his time. I am sorry that this may have caused some bad feelings on your part. That was not our intention.

 

I know that you have paid the membership fee to the foundation forum and were perhaps put off when I asked you what your interest in joining was. I can assure you that this is the same for everyone and I am happy to either refund your money or activate your membership. Of course it might be a little embarressing for you to do that at this point, but I think we've all been there.

 

As you know we have are own ideas about cultivation and what constitutes success in Daoist practice. While these ideas might be controversal, we do not impose them on others or ask people to partcipate. Nor do David or Wang Liping publicly criticize any teacher or system.

 

I'm glad that you are happy with you low cost, but apparently very good practice. I'm sure that there are some very enlightened teachers teaching for free. I don't think it serves much purpose to blast teachers who do charge for their time as that is their right to charge what they see fit. ; this is not a moral issue of rich vs. poor, it is simply an extra task for interested students to complete as they progress.

 

David his masters and his students that teach, prefer to work with very commited students, thisis why they charge a fair cost to prospective students.

 

Yours, Sean

Edited February 11, 2008 by seandenty

[dao zhen]

Dear Sean.

 

Thank you for your letter.

 

I think it is important to share teachings for free that are general, and can give good moral support and guidance - this was my aim in my post.

 

I also again, ask you to share your growth and experience - nothing in relation to technique or the like -

but things we can discuss.

 

Of course for other trainings, some fee must be paid as it is a material world.

 

I look forward to a friendship.

 

Thank you again.

 

Sincerely, Jesse

[DentyDao]

All you had to do was ask.

 

I'm writing a book with Rene Navarro (one of the founding members of the Healing Dao) on David, with his blessing. Much will be shared openly and many will come to have their beliefs tested and proved.

 

The best way to use my time right now is to focus on the book. But I can assure you that I am working hard on that.

 

Sean

[dao zhen]

How does the sea

become the queen of all rivers and streams?

By lying lower than they do.

Hense, it is the queen of all rivers and streams.

 

One who humbles himself, therefore,

can serve all people.

By putting himself last, he comes to be their leader.

Thus, when one of absolute virtue is set above people,

they do not feel that he is their burden.

And, when he stands in front of people,

they do not feel that he is an obstruction to them.

Therefore, the world follows one of absolute virtue joyfully,

and never tires of doing so.

He does not compete with anyone,

thus he is above all competition.

 

~The Complete Works of Lao Tzu, Ni, Hua-Ching

[cold]

How does the sea

become the queen of all rivers and streams?

By lying lower than they do.

Hense, it is the queen of all rivers and streams.

 

One who humbles himself, therefore,

can serve all people.

By putting himself last, he comes to be their leader.

Thus, when one of absolute virtue is set above people,

they do not feel that he is their burden.

And, when he stands in front of people,

they do not feel that he is an obstruction to them.

Therefore, the world follows one of absolute virtue joyfully,

and never tires of doing so.

He does not compete with anyone,

thus he is above all competition.

 

~The Complete Works of Lao Tzu, Ni, Hua-Ching

 

First rate!

[Cameron]

How does the sea

become the queen of all rivers and streams?

By lying lower than they do.

Hense, it is the queen of all rivers and streams.

 

One who humbles himself, therefore,

can serve all people.

By putting himself last, he comes to be their leader.

Thus, when one of absolute virtue is set above people,

they do not feel that he is their burden.

And, when he stands in front of people,

they do not feel that he is an obstruction to them.

Therefore, the world follows one of absolute virtue joyfully,

and never tires of doing so.

He does not compete with anyone,

thus he is above all competition.

 

~The Complete Works of Lao Tzu, Ni, Hua-Ching

 

 

Nice!

 

And Sean look forward to reading your book.

 

Cam

[Wun Yuen Gong]

What type of book you writing Sean do you also have a price on what it will cost?

 

WYG