Several questions about practicing taoism

[Raindancer]

Hello! I joined this forum not long ago thinking that my main reason was that I wanted a community, which I still want, but after looking around I've realised that I probably wanted help to first and foremost educate myself.

I feel as if I am a taoist/daoist (which word is preferred? can it even be expressed that way?) but quite an uneducated one. I have Tao Te Ching which I often read and reflect about and I do meditate, but for now that's about it.

 

Which other books (and which translations) should I go for? I know about Zhuangzi and have been looking for it, but knowing how much translations can differ, I would like to get some tips before I purchase one. 

 

Are there any activities that could help me on my way? I feel that the internet points in several different directions which makes me unsure what is really the right route to take. Tai Chi is mentioned in a few places and looks interesting, reminds me a little bit about yoga (which I do a every day), but I'm not sure where the good ends and the unnecessary starts. I feel like it would be easy to overdo it, making it not natural at all. (Edit: with "not natural" I meant that too many activities might take the eyes off the "right goal", losing the purpose of the activities.)

 

I'm thankful for all type of input.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Raindancer

[Marblehead]

Hi Raindancer.  All good questions.  Let me first point you toward this site:

 

https://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/c.html

 

It contains many translations of both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.  I prefer Robert Henricks' translation of the TTC and I would recommend reading Lin Yutang's translation of the Chuang Tzu (inner chapters only) and then read Burton Watson's complete translation.

 

I won't make a recommendation as to which to buy.  You should be able to make your own decision after reading the translations online.

 

Sometimes I use "Taoism" and other times I use "Daoism".  Same thing.  Really doesn't matter which you use.

 

Tai Chi is a worthy practice.  It works both the body and the mind and actually requires them to be used in unison.

 

Yes, it is easy to over-do things.  Especially when doing those things feels good.  We must know when to stop.

 

 

 

[Raindancer]

Thank you so much for your reply and for the link, I've looked around on that site some now (took me a while to understand the layout) and I will continue to look around there.

 

Tao Chi might be a good addition to my routine then, thank you again

[rideforever]

In my opinion the fundamental practice of Taoism is sitting meditation similar to Zen, but without the tension of Zen.
Becoming one with the breathing, merging with the breathing, at the dantien.
You are inside the dantien, meaning that as you sit you are not inside your forehead but inhabit your lower belly.
Resting as the belly.
Patiently dissolving, resting down from the belly.
Later, once more present in the belly, more calm, then  merging down into the Earth.
On the exhale descending down through the bottom of the bucket (dantien).
And merging with the ground of being.

The chi vital force flows upwards from the ground of being, into the dantien and then upwards into creation, then on exhalation back down; this is the rhythm of breathing.
In this practice, firstly we become one with the vital force chi, becoming one with the breathing.
Later we flow down into the source, returning.
Descending to the absolute ground.

 

It is also important to have period of just sitting just being non action. 
Meditate 5 minutes non action and  then 5 minutes with gentle guidance as above, and repeat and so on.

 

The 2nd practice and different practice is the Secret of the Golden Flower, which is at the mid-eyebrow point.  Beginning with concentration there but later surrendering flowing merging as the presence there.

The truth is inside you, that must always come first before anyone else's ideas.

[Raindancer]

Thank you for your advice and in depth description. I've always found meditating to be quite hard because I easily start daydreaming, I have become better with practice, but I'm by no means perfect, so I will try to do as you advised. Is there any youtube video describing what you just did while they're doing it? I've found that I have an easier time learning if I see someone else do it, even if most of the action happen inside of them.

[rideforever]

You can try gently listening to this version of the Tao Te Ching, I have added some gentle music to it.   Begin with gentle listening, then move to the breathing.   Don't worry if you leave the words behind.   Don't worry if you leave this world behind.

 

https://app.box.com/s/v16glzioqzqrnmn271ctht6gf9mfmg2k

 

Perhaps Qigong would be helpful for you, as working with the body grounds the mind.   After qigong practice, you can sit quietly.

 

There is a man called Lomakayu who is a very sincere teacher, sit with him, he has many videos in his playlist, sitting outside in a stone circle,   He is a good companion.  He is not of any tradition, but is whole.

 

 

 

Forgiveness Practice
I have also found this to be very good, it is from Theravada.

There are also many other not so good teachers on youtube.

[ernobe]

Hi Raindancer

 

Just like you are asking yourself which translation of Zhuangzi is correct, you should also ask yourself which translation of the Tao Te Ching is better.    Gregory Richter has a word-for-word translation including the original Chinese.    Of versions online, I would recommend that by Wing-Tsit Chan.    For comparison, check out 175+ translations of chapter one.

Edited July 29, 2018 by ernobe

[Raindancer]

Thank you for the advice, video links and the music/Tao Te Ching link, rideforever. Looks like it might be exactly what I need when it comes to meditation, I'll check them out  Could I practice both Tai Chi and Qigong? Would one be better for me?

 

Thank you for the recommendations, ernobe! I don't know if English versions could ever be 100 % "correct" since they're being translated from a language quite different from English, but ofc the closer the better  one day I would like to learn Chinese so that I could read the original, not sure how hard that would be, though.

I did some research before I picked the Tao Te Ching book that I have, which seems to be the best translation available in my native language. There might very well be better ones out there in English, so I'll check that out for sure. I also think I would like to read Tao Te Ching in English since I will probably read all the other works in English, to make it easier for myself.

Thank you for the links, I'll check them out!

Edited July 29, 2018 by Raindancer

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Thank you for the advice, video links and the music/Tao Te Ching link, rideforever. Looks like it might be exactly what I need when it comes to meditation, I'll check them out  Could I practice both Tai Chi and Qigong? Would one be better for me?

 

Thank you for the recommendations, ernobe! I don't know if English versions could ever be 100 % "correct" since they're being translated from a language quite different from English, but ofc the closer the better  one day I would like to learn Chinese so that I could read the original, not sure how hard that would be, though.

I did some research before I picked the Tao Te Ching book that I have, which seems to be the best translation available in my native language. There might very well be better ones out there in English, so I'll check that out for sure. I also think I would like to read Tao Te Ching in English since I will probably read all the other works in English, to make it easier for myself.

Thank you for the links, I'll check them out!

 

 

I think most people who practice Tai Chi also do some qi gong - so its not really an either/or but a both/and.  You might like to check out books by Damo Mitchell on qi gong and nei gong - which include meditation techniques.

 

I would also recommend spending some time to study the I Ching - which is the great classic text of all (or most) Chinese traditional thought and philosophy.

 

 

[rideforever]

Qigong is very good at the beginning and the middle, because it is easier to learn and results are fast.
From the middle to the end, taichi is good, it is more difficult to learn but it is like art.
... generally speaking ...

[Raindancer]

I see, that is good to know, thank you for telling me, Apech and rideforever! I will take a look at both and go from there.

 

I will check out the I Ching, I assume there are plenty of different translations of that one as well. Is there one that is generally preferred?

[Raindancer]

Okay, I've been able to find some opinions on different translations, and it seems like it might be beneficial to read a few different ones. For I Ching I've found translations by Richard Wilhelm (Cary F Baynes) and Alfred Huang available where I'm at, maybe that's an alright start.

 

Trying to find the translations mentioned for Chuang Tzu now.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Raindancer

[Lost in Translation]

The Wilhelm/Baynes translation is an excellent investment. In addition to containing a detailed I Ching translation and commentary it also contains a detailed discussion of the trigrams (Shuo Kua) and the Ta Chuan / Great Treatise.

[Raindancer]

Thank you for the information, Lost in Translation! After looking around I am quite positive that I will invest in that one 

 

 

 

Is it the full Chuang Tzu that can be read on this link? (site shared by Marblehead earlier in thread)

My eyes don't do well with light text on dark background, so I am trying to find it in book form, but if that's the entire text I guess I could use that if I am not successful.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Raindancer

[rene]

1 hour ago, Raindancer said:

My eyes don't do well with light text on dark background,...

 

Mine dont either, so I highlight the whole thing, copy, paste it into Notepad or Word or whatever. That way it's also available for me when offline.

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, rene said:

 

Mine dont either, so I highlight the whole thing, copy, paste it into Notepad or Word or whatever. That way it's also available for me when offline.

Yes, that would definitely be an option. I will still try to find it as a book since I don't like reading texts like that on the computer, but it's a good idea, I guess I could even print it.

[ernobe]

1 hour ago, Raindancer said:

Okay, I've been able to find some opinions on different translations, and it seems like it might be beneficial to read a few different ones. For I Ching I've found translations by Richard Wilhelm (Cary F Baynes) and Alfred Huang available where I'm at, maybe that's an alright start.

 

Trying to find the translations mentioned for Chuang Tzu now.

 

The problem with all the modern interpretations of the I Ching is that they don't approach it as a spiritual classic on the same level as the Tao Te Ching.  For that you need to go back to the commentaries of Liu Yiming, Chih-hsu Ou-i, and Cheng-I, available as "The Taoist I Ching", "The Buddhist I Ching", and "The Tao of Organization" in translations by Thomas Cleary.  Then again, Gregory Richter has a word-for-word translation that is fortunately available at  http://grichter.sites.truman.edu/files/2012/01/yjnew.pdf.

 

[Raindancer]

15 minutes ago, ernobe said:

 

The problem with all the modern interpretations of the I Ching is that they don't approach it as a spiritual classic on the same level as the Tao Te Ching.  For that you need to go back to the commentaries of Liu Yiming, Chih-hsu Ou-i, and Cheng-I, available as "The Taoist I Ching", "The Buddhist I Ching", and "The Tao of Organization" in translations by Thomas Cleary.  Then again, Gregory Richter has a word-for-word translation that is fortunately available at  http://grichter.sites.truman.edu/files/2012/01/yjnew.pdf.

 

 

Hmm, I see. Thank you for telling me. I found the first book (The Taoist I Ching) where I intend to buy the others from, so that one would be easy for me to get.

 

I will take a look at the link  

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Raindancer said:

 

Hmm, I see. Thank you for telling me. I found the first book (The Taoist I Ching) where I intend to buy the others from, so that one would be easy for me to get.

 

I will take a look at the link  

 

 

If it's by Cleary then treat it with caution.

[ernobe]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

If it's by Cleary then treat it with caution.

 

Yes, if it is Clearys' own translation of the I Ching, it can be very difficult to understand unless you compare with a translation like Richters' and the Taoist and Buddhist versions.

 

For example 14.1 in Clearys' translation reads:

"Do not get involved with what is harmful, and you will be blameless. You will be blameless if you struggle."

 

In Clearys' "The Buddhist I Ching" the same line is:

"As long as there is none of the harm that comes from association, this is not blameworthy.  If one struggles, there will be no blame."

 

In Richters' translation it reads:

"NO MUTUAL INJURY or HARM. DIFFICULTIES, BUT NO HARM."

 

As we can see, there is a steady progression from meaningless drivel to the bright clarity of truth in Richters' version.

 

[Raindancer]

Thank you both for the warning. If he is so unclear/confusing in his translation, is there a point in getting his translation?

Edited July 30, 2018 by Raindancer

[rideforever]

If we spend too much time worrying about which translation ... are we really interested in reading it ?

The earlier link to the TTC audiobook is by Giafu Feng, he is Chinese,

it is a good translation, and his translation is readily available as a pdf or in book form.
 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Thank you both for the warning. If he is so unclear/confusing in his translation, is there a point in getting his translation?

 

Start with Wilhelm and Huang for the I Ching in my opinion.  Richter is good but it is bare bones.

[ernobe]

11 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Thank you both for the warning. If he is so unclear/confusing in his translation, is there a point in getting his translation?

 

I suppose Cleary would say that his translation includes the commentary from the Ten Wings (which he calls the image), which helps clarify the meaning.  The complete text he gives for 14.1 is:

 

"Do not get involved with what is harmful, and you will be blameless. You will be blameless if you struggle.  Image. Great possession is positive at first; there is no involvement with what is harmful."

 

One gets the idea that great possessions can get one involved with difficulties, which can be avoided at the beginning if one takes precautions.

 

Wilhelm also translates the commentary from the Ten Wings, which I find to be very bizarre in this case:

"If the nine at the beginning in POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE has no relationships, this is harmful."

 

It seems to be saying the opposite of what his own commentary on the line says.

[Apech]

In recommending the I Ching I was suggesting that the principles by which the changes operate and so on - is very helpful to studying Daoism.  Most people say that if you only have one copy of the I Ching then it should be Wilhelm as he is still considered accurate and so on.  I wouldn't get too bogged down with the meaning of individual yaoci and so on - but just look at the gua and bagua and the principles involved.  The I Ching is very old and pre-dates the TTC for instance; and there are debates about when Daoism first arose some of which put it back to pre-history of shamanism rather than the classic period.