Is ‘Dao’ more easily translated as ‘God’, or ‘Nature’?

[Phoenix3]

Thank you, that was an interesting discussion

[vonkrankenhaus]

50 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

 

 

In there, I saw you wrote:

 

"In general, I do not subscribe to an "Absolute Nothingness" as nothing can emerge from it without there being a potential capacity to emerge... which means there is something other than Nothing there."

 

I would say WuJi is "Without Polarity". This means no thing(s) are there for there to be any distinguishing feature from any other.

 

"Potential" is like "imaginary". A rock on a cliff has "potential energy" if it falls. Otherwise, it may sit there for millions of years doing nothing at all. Something Yang must happen. Rock is very Yin and has no "potential" to move by itself.

 

Nothing will still change, as change is the only constant.

 

The only way for No-Thing to change is to become Some-Thing.

 

The instant Some Thing appears, or "moves", that event instantly sets the polarity between the Thing and what the Thing arose from. Before that, there was no distinction, no Polarity to discern.

 

The "potential" of that happening is just an idea, a projection. 

 

Because "It" happened. Not "potentially", but right here now.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

And this:

 

"The One was its appelation,

The Void was its dwelling;

Nonaction was its original constitution;

Harmony was its use."

 

I think this fits what I wrote. 

 

One is a thing, and can thus be named, and its existence creates the polarity it has with the Emptiness.

 

One came from non-being and non-action.

Therefore One must be a being and action.

 

And this Polarity has the function of "harmony" of Movement, the TaiJi shows this, and to me it means that although One has YinYang, that One doesn't bifurcate or split into "Two" separate physical things, but rather exhibits the tendency of Polarity.

 

This is the difference between holistic monism and materialistic dualism.

 

The One HAS two aspects, but is not two things. It is always still One.

 

And YinYang are not things.

 

They simply mean "polarity".

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Wu Ming Jen]

Tao is not an entity or a divine being.  There are no divine beings that existed before this initial moment of creation, but the number of Taoist deities  is staggering.  The pantheon differs according to sect and region, and its ranks are fluid.  No divine being exists forever, and all who interact with humans are subject to human time.  Some change over time, and all of them change status with time.  Some are elevated, others forgotten.

 

To practice virtue is to study the Tao and be a good human being.  Virtue is the body and form of Tao (as light is to electricity,) therefore Tao and virtue cannot be separated.  Don’t make god or Tao have physical form, it is a principle a theory, not a physical being.  The mistake that people make is to try to name god as a human.  Therefore they fear the god and fear the priests, they fear other humans.

 

Life is joyful – happiness is the only purpose of life – not being grumpy about life is the practice.  The more attached you are the less benefit you will gain. How can you play in the human life and preserve the innocent spirit of your life and enjoy it to the best it can be.  If the chair is not comfortable, change chairs. 

[silent thunder]

19 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Poets have never helped me.

 

But yes, poets speak a different language than do scholars.

 

 

hmm... I'm compelled to offer a challenge to the bolded statement.

 

Lyrics in music are poetry and I sense music is a big part of your life from your contributions here.

 

Can you say that this has never helped you?

 

Over the years I have learned to use music in times when I am so willfully given over to a certain mood that even if I sense I can change my mood, my willfullness won't allow it.  In these cases, I sometimes play music that I know will affect change in my system and alter the flow.

[dawei]

17 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

In there, I saw you wrote:

 

"In general, I do not subscribe to an "Absolute Nothingness" as nothing can emerge from it without there being a potential capacity to emerge... which means there is something other than Nothing there."

 

I would say WuJi is "Without Polarity". This means no thing(s) are there for there to be any distinguishing feature from any other.

 

"Potential" is like "imaginary". A rock on a cliff has "potential energy" if it falls. Otherwise, it may sit there for millions of years doing nothing at all. Something Yang must happen. Rock is very Yin and has no "potential" to move by itself.

 

Nothing will still change, as change is the only constant.

 

The only way for No-Thing to change is to become Some-Thing.

 

The instant Some Thing appears, or "moves", that event instantly sets the polarity between the Thing and what the Thing arose from. Before that, there was no distinction, no Polarity to discern.

 

The "potential" of that happening is just an idea, a projection. 

 

Because "It" happened. Not "potentially", but right here now.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

nice comments.  It may show that when we are trying to talk about that first movement, it is a bit of a challenge.   

Change is the only constant.  I agree.  In this dualistic world of perceived life.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

hmm... I'm compelled to offer a challenge to the bolded statement.

 

Lyrics in music are poetry and I sense music is a big part of your life from your contributions here.

 

Can you say that this has never helped you?

 

Over the years I have learned to use music in times when I am so willfully given over to a certain mood that even if I sense I can change my mood, my willfullness won't allow it.  In these cases, I sometimes play music that I know will affect change in my system and alter the flow.

Okay.  You win.  I guess I mis-spoke.  Hehehe.

 

[dawei]

5 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Tao is not an entity or a divine being.  There are no divine beings that existed before this initial moment of creation, but the number of Taoist deities  is staggering. 

 

that comment along is staggering.   Nicely said

 

[Marblehead]

Well, if they would stop drinking so much rice wine they wouldn't be staggering all the time.

 

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, if they would stop drinking so much rice wine they wouldn't be staggering all the time.

 

 

Do you know what rice wine is in china ?  It is not wine at all...  tell you a story.

 

I frequented a city called the south gate of Beijing for many years... and told them on one trip I would come down from the northeast .. and they asked if I wouldn't bring that dong bei 'rice wine' .... which is known to be quite potent.

 

When I arrived at the restaurant, I slammed a huge jug of 70% rice wine on the table... they all jumped up as if scared and afraid.  In their city, 35% was the norm.   

 

After the meal, we divided out the rice wine among them.  They went to a next door store to buy bottles of water but poured all the water out so they could fill their division in the bottles.

 

I didn't visit until two years later.. at which time, they brought forth all the 'water bottles' to celebrate our being together.

 

 

 

[Spotless]

On 8/3/2018 at 2:26 PM, thelerner said:

Perhaps

to understand Tao,

we need a poet,

not a scholar

Nothing is "needed" to understand the Dao

 

However - a poet may be more apt to catch us by surprise and bring us close to abiding in Dao - where we already are but in trance.

 

Many words are simply too laden with conception - so much so that words such as "God" tend to pop peoples awareness out of their bodies or into torrents of mind looping.

 

In much of the West the word Divine does not necessarily evoke thoughts of dieties but more of "a higher something" - Divine Awareness would implicate a higher finer Awareness and possibly an all encompassing awareness which would also include acceptance - compassion - timelessness and no-space or limitless space. It does not say "Higher Awareness" which indicates incorrectly a scale or gradient of awareness or "Higher Mind" which brings in almost utter confusion with the misleading use of "Mind".  

 

The Mountain Sunset was Divine - does this invoke a rebuff in any way?

 

Even saying "The mountain sunset was heavenly" can have a bit of a rebuff in some.

 

I do not worry about walking on egg shells - this is not the discussion - not whether it is politically correct. 

I am interested in seeing the teachings brought up to date from the "translation teachings of christian monks" and the translation teachings of "psychologists" and freudians. Some of the "New Age" language was better in many ways.

 

For those that are still Seeking, the pointing words that have been used in the West have been more detour words than pointers. 

God Consciousness and Higher Mind delude people with some semblance of an understanding - and even the emerging "Mindfulness Movement" is generally a toss in the dark - though it certainly is much better than Religion.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Spotless

[silent thunder]

edit:  on second thought... na

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by silent thunder

[Limahong]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:58 AM, Phoenix3 said:

Please give a reason.

 

And if ‘God’ is seen as masculine, and ‘Nature’ is usually seen as feminine, then what gender is ‘Dao’?

God = Yang. Nature = Yin.

Dao ~ started as Consort - the energy.

Recently I was introduced to the Consort who came to me as (s)he.

As an alpha Yang I said - WTF!

And made the Consort into my Yinny.

Now the Yinny and I 'yab yum' 24/7.

We have this sign permanently outside the house -

"Closed - "

Dao is 'yab yum'.

 

If ‘God’ is usually seen as personal, and ‘Nature’ is usually seen as impersonal, then what is ‘Dao’?

"Closed - "

Don't disturb the occupants and get inter-personal.

Dao is private.

 

Please don’t just repeat the predictable answer of ‘Dao is genderless’ or ‘the Dao that can be named is not the true Dao’, like a mindless drone.

Consort Yinny and I hate drones.

They disturb our 'yab yum'.

We destroy them in the name of 'yab yum' (or the Dao).

Dao is droneless.

 

 

 

 

Not to say they are wrong, but it’s just a typical answer from someone who doesn’t think.

When we are in 'yab yum'  (or the Dao) we cannot afford to think.

Why? Then we will be in a 'local mind' mode.

Check with dawei.

 

Please provide a thoughtful answer, though I acknowledge thinking isn’t for everyone.

How many times must we repeat that 'yab yum' is unthinkable?

'Yab yum' (or the Dao) is not for everyone.

Cry your hearts out.

 

"Closed - "

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Limahong]

On 8/3/2018 at 5:50 PM, Marblehead said:

A "way" is like the "way" to read.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

I have just received this PM -

 

Instead of putting post after post of single sentences and GIFs, please put them into a single post. This way you will not clog threads.

 

Please advise what am I supposed I do?

 

Please on my behalf - find an answer from TDB.

 

Thank you

 

- LimA

Edited August 5, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, dawei said:

Do you know what rice wine is in china ?  It is not wine at all...  tell you a story.

 

The only experience I have with it is the Korean version.  That was bad enough for me.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I'd been sitting on a bench while my wife and son shopped nearby.

and as is often the case lately, "i" had drifted off into emptiness and stillness while sitting there...

grinning slightly and staring off at nothing in particular somewhere beyond the horizon.

You sure think a lot.

 

[Marblehead]

19 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

I have just received this PM -

 

Instead of putting post after post of single sentences and GIFs, please put them into a single post. This way you will not clog threads.

 

Please advise what am I supposed I do?

 

Please on my behalf - find an answer from TDB.

 

Thank you

 

- LimA

I think we have spoke to this before.  Just be yourself.

 

You are not going to please everyone.  As long as you are not violating the forum rules you should be okay.

 

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

As long as you are not violating the forum rules you should be okay.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Thank you. I am not one to give anyone negative energy. I will stop.

 

But If I am to receive such PMs again - I will display them openly at TDB each time.

 

I am an ALPHA Taoist - I believe in openness and traceability.

 

Then you will not need to respond.

 

- LimA

[silent thunder]

19 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

You sure think a lot.

 

I surely do my friend.

At least there's some quiet before and after the "conversations"...

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I surely do...

 

within every emotion, lies a point of empty nothingstillness

from which it arises and falls

about which it pivots and hinges

and to which it returns again and again

 

this empty point of nothingstillness...

a gateway and a causeway

 

cultivate this and enjoy the fruits

[silent thunder]

3 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

within every emotion, lies a point of empty nothingstillness

from which it arises and falls

about which it pivots and hinges

and to which it returns again and again

 

this empty point of nothingstillness...

a gateway and a causeway

 

cultivate this and enjoy the fruits

that.

is.

beautiful!

 

thank you my friend!

 

*deep bow*

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Thank you. I am not one to give anyone negative energy. I will stop.

 

But If I am to receive such PMs again - I will display them openly at TDB each time.

 

I am an ALPHA Taoist - I believe in openness and traceability.

 

Then you will not need to respond.

 

- LimA

BTW  I need to add these:

 

1.  Please don't post the PM conversations in open forum that you have with other members.  Those are supposed to be Private Messages.

 

2.  If any of them come from an Admin or Moderator, don't fight it.  You will only lose.

 

But sometimes we must stand up for what we believe.  If we do we must be ready to accept full consequences for the results.  Choose wisely.

 

 

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Choose wisely

 

My Granny dislikes - negative energy.

She says - "Boy-boy don't create any".

[nestentrie]

On ‎1‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 1:22 PM, Walker said:

 

Now that we got that out of the way.

 

1. Dao is genderless. Gender does not remove one from Dao.

2. Dao is impersonal. Persons are not separate from Dao.

3. The Dao in our definitions is not the true Dao.

4. There are no synonyms for a word that has no definition.

5. All words are synonymous with a word that has no definition.

6. No words express Dao.

7. No words are separate from the Dao.

8. You are more likely to find your answers by being "mindless" than not. 

9. Thinking is merely an adjutant for cultivators of Dao.

10. You seem to possess youth and energy. If you care so much, use those things to learn Chinese and sincerely cultivate. Or, spend your life asking half-baked questions on the internet and getting stupid answers from insipid forum bums like me in return for your tepid efforts. Whatever. 

 

Do these 10 ideas you're riffing on relate to these other 10 ideas from the Zhuangzi? If so, I like your cleverness in responding!

 

Hui Shi had many formulae and his writings filled five carts, but his guiding doctrine was incoherent and his language didn't get the point. He catalogued the significance of natural kinds. He said:

1. 'The ultimately great has nothing outside it, call it "the greatest One". The ultimately small has nothing inside it, call it ''the smallest one".
2. 'That which has no thickness cannot be accumulated, yet it's amounts to a thousand miles.
3. 'The sky is on a par with the earth; mountains are level with the marshes.
4. 'The sun is simultaneously at the center and declining; natural kinds are simultaneously living and dying.
5. 'Make unity great and with it a lesser unity differs. This we call the lesser unity and difference. The myriad natural kinds are totally the same and totally different. This we call the great similarity and difference.
6. 'The south has no limit yet has a limit.
7. 'I go to Yue today yet arrived yesterday.'
8. 'Linked rings can be disconnected.
9. 'I know the center of the world; north of Yen (northern region) and south of Yue (southern region); it is this-here-now.
10. 'Exhaustively love all the myriad thing-kinds; The cosmos is one unit.'

I ask not just because your choice of 10 retorts is interesting, but because they seem to share something. Also, I've been working with them of late. I look forward to seeing you incorporate them elsewhere!

[Limahong]

On 8/2/2018 at 10:43 AM, Walker said:

 

I have a lot of admiration for Red Pine--I wouldn't bust his balls just to bust his balls.

 

 My Granny just fainted.