Buddha Did Not Know

[zerostao]

On 8/3/2018 at 11:25 PM, steve said:

"If I hadn't done what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know I didn't need to do it."

~ Peter Fenner

 

For some, a lifetime of practice does not bring realization.

For others, it may happen spontaneously in an instant. 

It happened like that to a friend of mine at age 8...

Imagine how intense that was for an 8 year old!

 

I don't think there is a way to do it, I think it is a blessing.

I am inclined to agree with this 100%

at the same time, and it is only my opinion;

sincerity is never denied.

 

[rideforever]

On 04/08/2018 at 3:12 PM, steve said:

When asked point blank if the self exists, his response was silence.

 

Just happen to be reading the Lotus Sutra yesterday and his response was not silence, at least not at the end of his life.
He says point blank that the Tathagatta is an eternal being (immortal) individual, and that humans do not realise the danger they are in, if they don't realise they lose the opportunity.
Which is exactly what Jesus said : "Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many find it, Narrow is the gate that leads to life".
q..e.d

 

However on the subject of "how" he still didn't know, or at least wasn't clear.
If you really understand that eternal individual life is possible you will not waste your time doing things that don't work.

Edited August 10, 2018 by rideforever

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Just happen to be reading the Lotus Sutra yesterday and his response was not silence, at least not at the end of his life.
He says point blank that the Tathagatta is an eternal being (immortal) individual, and that humans do not realise the danger they are in, if they don't realise they lose the opportunity.
Which is exactly what Jesus said : "Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many find it, Narrow is the gate that leads to life".
q..e.d

 

However on the subject of "how" he still didn't know, or at least wasn't clear.
If you really understand that eternal individual life is possible you will not waste your time doing things that don't work.

 

I'd love to see the exact quote about being immortal etc.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Bindi

[rideforever]

24 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I'd love to see the exact quote about being immortal etc.

 

No, if you love to see ... then you would go and see.
You don't love to see.
You are like the children playing in the burning house that Buddha talks of in the Lotus Sutra, you have such a great time you don't comprehend your own suffering.   He even says that they only way to get through to someone who loves their misery so much is through manipulation and force.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Just happen to be reading the Lotus Sutra yesterday and his response was not silence, at least not at the end of his life.
He says point blank that the Tathagatta is an eternal being (immortal) individual, and that humans do not realise the danger they are in, if they don't realise they lose the opportunity.
Which is exactly what Jesus said : "Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many find it, Narrow is the gate that leads to life".
q..e.d

 

However on the subject of "how" he still didn't know, or at least wasn't clear.
If you really understand that eternal individual life is possible you will not waste your time doing things that don't work.

 

Describing Tathagatta as eternal or immortal refers to the fundamental characteristics of emptiness and clarity.

Emptiness, in particular, has unique characteristics such as boundlessness, indestructibility, changelessness, and so forth.

These can be summarized with words like eternal or immortal.

In my opinion, interpreting Buddhism as positing "eternal individual life" is a misinterpretation. 

 

 

[Bindi]

33 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

No, if you love to see ... then you would go and see.
You don't love to see.
You are like the children playing in the burning house that Buddha talks of in the Lotus Sutra, you have such a great time you don't comprehend your own suffering.   He even says that they only way to get through to someone who loves their misery so much is through manipulation and force.

 

No, I really would love to see it, I'm not Buddhist, and I do believe in an immortal self. I would be surprised if Buddha said this though. 

[Daemon]

On 06/08/2018 at 10:15 AM, zerostao said:

 

I am inclined to agree with this 100%

at the same time, and it is only my opinion;

sincerity is never denied.

 

 

I'm wondering if you've ever considered the possibility that realisation may be a mixed blessing?

☮️

 

[rideforever]

12 minutes ago, steve said:

misinterpretation. 

 

If the Tathagatta has through his effort acquired wisdom and Buddha nature, and other beings have not and suffer, what this means is simply he is an eternal (limitless in time and space) being in other words immortal  He is fully functional and has his own knowledge.
His knowledge is knowledge it is not "clarity".   He experiences his real being and it is alive and eternal, it is not "empty".

He is individual self-ware and has personal intelligence different from other beings.

 

Words like Emptiness and Clarity, come from the miserable beings who wish to piss on ideas of salvation because they live in misery and see no way out, they feel angry and hopeless.

[rideforever]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

No, I really would love to see it, I'm not Buddhist, and I do believe in an immortal self. I would be surprised if Buddha said this though. 

 

Well Chapter 3 is Parables where he talks of the humans as people who suffer misery and live in a burning house : they do not comprehend their suffering nor the danger of remaining here.
Chapter 16 is about the lifespan of the Tathagatta who is "beyond time and space".

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

If the Tathagatta has through his effort acquired wisdom and Buddha nature, and other beings have not and suffer, what this means is simply he is an eternal (limitless in time and space) being in other words immortal  He is fully functional and has his own knowledge.
His knowledge is knowledge it is not "clarity".   He experiences his real being and it is alive and eternal, it is not "empty".

He is individual self-ware and has personal intelligence different from other beings.

 

Words like Emptiness and Clarity, come from the miserable beings who wish to piss on ideas of salvation because they live in misery and see no way out, they feel angry and hopeless.

 

The idea of an immortal, individual being is not consistent with the basic tenets of Buddhism - impermanence and dependent origination. Words like emptiness and clarity are the cornerstone of sutra, tantra, and dzogchen.

 

Buddha nature and wisdom are not acquired, they are innate.

The do not arise through effort, rather through releasing effort.

Recall that through all of his effort, there was no success.

It was when he released all effort that realization occurred.

 

 

 

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

 

No, because when he was young he made no effort and was not in the correct state.

It was only after his long arduous journey.

Perhaps you remember that the 4th Sight that Buddha saw was when he returned to the palace and the dancing girls put on their performance, but late in the night he saw them lying in a big drunken heap.   They too had let go of their effort.   Where they Buddhas.  No.

In the Lotus Sutra Buddha says that the Tathagattas all practised their skilful means diligent patiently and over long duration, and only then entered the correct state.   
Chapter 2 is on Skilful Means.
Your ideas are not intelligent.   How can he make an entire chapter on Skilful Means if there is nothing to do and nothing to realise ?
Why does he spend a whole chapter talking about children in burning houses if there is nothing to do ?
Why is there buddha-sangha-dharma  is there is nothing to do ?
Of course there is something to do, but that something to do is not a coarse idiot work of deranged humans.
One must try to use more intelligent intelligence.
To sit in meditation is to use will and intention, but it is subtle and good hearted.
For those who .... lack spirit, it is comfort to talk about emptiness ... but what is empty of what.   Ever thought of that ?
If Buddha Nature is innate, then what is the need for Bodhisattva.
And if it is innate then why not just wake everyone up now ?
Of course it is not innate.
It must be brought into existence through practice, that is why there is buddha teaching practice.
It is brought into existence from the inside ... in that sense it is innate.

The ego-deluded interpret every word "innate-emptiness-clarity" as an excuse to do nothing.

 

In the Lotus Sutra Buddha talks a lot about faith, meaning you have hope that you can make it, and that you faith in your basic innocence ... in that sense it is innate.
But still it requires great special diligent long-term effort to bring out the innateness.

 

When he sat under that tree, he meditated for 35 days, he warred with the Demons of Mara, and faced the existential test of whether he was truly worthy and touched the Earth.   Does that sound like he released all effort ?    Well sort of, and sort of not.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by rideforever

[doc benway]

49 minutes ago, rideforever said:

No, because when he was young he made no effort and was not in the correct state.

It was only after his long arduous journey.

Perhaps you remember that the 4th Sight that Buddha saw was when he returned to the palace and the dancing girls put on their performance, but late in the night he saw them lying in a big drunken heap.   They too had let go of their effort.   Where they Buddhas.  No.

In the Lotus Sutra Buddha says that the Tathagattas all practised their skilful means diligent patiently and over long duration, and only then entered the correct state.   
Chapter 2 is on Skilful Means.
Your ideas are not intelligent.   How can he make an entire chapter on Skilful Means if there is nothing to do and nothing to realise ?
Why does he spend a whole chapter talking about children in burning houses if there is nothing to do ?
Why is there buddha-sangha-dharma  is there is nothing to do ?
Of course there is something to do, but that something to do is not a coarse idiot work of deranged humans.
One must try to use more intelligent intelligence.
To sit in meditation is to use will and intention, but it is subtle and good hearted.
For those who .... lack spirit, it is comfort to talk about emptiness ... but what is empty of what.   Ever thought of that ?
If Buddha Nature is innate, then what is the need for Bodhisattva.
And if it is innate then why not just wake everyone up now ?
Of course it is not innate.
It must be brought into existence through practice, that is why there is buddha teaching practice.
It is brought into existence from the inside ... in that sense it is innate.

The ego-deluded interpret every word "innate-emptiness-clarity" as an excuse to do nothing.

 

In the Lotus Sutra Buddha talks a lot about faith, meaning you have hope that you can make it, and that you faith in your basic innocence ... in that sense it is innate.
But still it requires great special diligent long-term effort to bring out the innateness.

 

When he sat under that tree, he meditated for 35 days, he warred with the Demons of Mara, and faced the existential test of whether he was truly worthy and touched the Earth.   Does that sound like he released all effort ?    Well sort of, and sort of not.

 

 

 

I wish you well on your path.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

The idea of an immortal, individual being is not consistent with the basic tenets of Buddhism - impermanence and dependent origination. Words like emptiness and clarity are the cornerstone of sutra, tantra, and dzogchen.

 

Buddha nature and wisdom are not acquired, they are innate.

The do not arise through effort, rather through releasing effort.

Recall that through all of his effort, there was no success.

It was when he released all effort that realization occurred.

 

 

 

 

I don't think "releasing all effort'" is Buddhist, as Buddhism requires "Right effort."

[doc benway]

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I don't think "releasing all effort'" is Buddhist, as Buddhism requires "Right effort."

 

Right effort is a component of the sutric approach.

Releasing all effort is the core principle of dzogchen practice.

Both are Buddhist.

Edited August 10, 2018 by steve

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Right effort is a component of the sutric approach.

Releasing all effort is the core principle of dzogchen practice.

Both are Buddhist.

 

Nonetheless the historical Buddha taught 'Right effort', it can't just be dismissed across the board because dzogchen perceives effort as unnecesary. 

[doc benway]

On 8/10/2018 at 7:17 PM, Bindi said:

 

Nonetheless the historical Buddha taught 'Right effort', it can't just be dismissed across the board because dzogchen perceives effort as unnecesary. 

 

You're correct and I appreciate you pointing that out.

Looking back I can see how my comments may have invalidated alternatives perspectives.

_/\_

 

edited for clarity (my own)

Edited August 12, 2018 by steve

[Spotless]

To Rideforever

 

Prior to what looks like your inevitable expulsion from here - you might want to look a how ridged you are, positioned you are and utterly blind to the teachings you are so bent against. Your positioning and entrenched blindness is inspirational to those that have been so mired - and a testimony to what right effort could attain if given a chance.

 

"Dissatisfaction" much more closely resembles what the Buddha was talking about rather than the translated word "suffering" - just a note since you so easily have derided those that have admired his teachings.

 

Your Fundamentalist structure of unbending authority from the standpoint of belief and mental jibberish not based in experience but rather from shallow mental wandering in a small closet really does bring out the green in you.

 

As a bonified green pea in a sea of limitless light - your tiny identified wave giggling between rocks on all sides is your island paradise and I think we all hope you come out of it soon enough.

 

 

[thelerner]

We spend our lives wondering and weighing.

to me, releasing all effort, is deep confidence in the way, internalizing it.

 

I force myself do certain things, healthy things, I'd rather not but they're good for me.

My wife on the other hands, likes healthy food.  She likes to exercise. 

 

For me, its effort, for her it's natural. 

 

There's wisdom in liking what's good for you.  When you have that, which I don't, you can release effort, because you've internalized dharma. 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by thelerner

[Bindi]

In Daoist alchemy or Neidan it is acknowledged that first effort is needed, until the last stage when no more effort is required. 

 

Quote

 Both Liu Yiming and Wang Mu refer to the fact that, at this stage [the last stage], one gradually enters from the state of "doing" (you wei) to the state of "non-doing" ( wuwei), which in the third and last stage will be crucial to ensure the birth of the Infant. Liu Yiming's commentary will be quoted later in the present book. As for Wang Mu, he writes: "At this time, the Elixir has already coalesced; one should nourish it warmly, and it is not necessary to perform again the 'fire times.' As the process has reached the stage of 'refining breath into spirit,' [Zhang Boduan] clarifies that there is no more need of 'doing"' (Wuzhen pian qianjie, 23, note 5). -  Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Trying to convince people who don't believe this is well-nigh useless, much better to just figure out for ourselves what we need to 'do' in the first two stages.

[rideforever]

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

 

 

You have cultivated many cunning daggers.

[rideforever]

The Lotus Sutra is quite amazing.  The Buddha gives a radical new presentation of the spiritual path.   

 

At one point 5,000 monks and Bodhisattvas leave in disgust.

 

 

[rideforever]

This man seems to do a reasonable job at summarising the first 7 chapters.
Unfortunately the Lotus Sutra is filled mostly with boasts about the million billion eons or the trillion beings the greatest of great bodhisattvas etc...  all this boasting tells its own story.
One of the things Buddha talks about in the parable of the burning house is that beings do not understand what fire is nor what their perishing is.
He also says all Buddha's are the same, and that they pull themselves out of the mud through diligent practice over many many years in whichever tradition they have chosen, but that the ultimate vision must flower to be one path, presumably after some realisation has been achieved.   So as far as practice instructions go, this is all I have found in the sutra, as well as the importance of faith and hope, there is a parable where Buddha says that human do not dare hope of the glory that is possible for them, to the extent that they have to be initially met with a miserable face, because misery is all they trust.   Later the greater and then greater glory can be revealed.
 

 

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, thelerner said:

We spend our lives wondering and weighing.

to me, releasing all effort, is deep confidence in the way, internalizing it.

 

I force myself do certain things, healthy things, I'd rather not but they're good for me.

My wife on the other hands, likes healthy food.  She likes to exercise. 

 

For me, its effort, for her it's natural. 

 

There's wisdom in liking what's good for you.  When you have that, which I don't, you can release effort, because you've internalized dharma. 

 

Nicely put, thank you.

 

Releasing is all about the one who likes and dislikes...

[rideforever]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

Are you are student of Dzogchen ?
And what is your state of consciousness, what have you gained from your approach ?
Does your mind talk like the mind of a normal human being ?
Do you have permanent stable identity beyond the mind ?

[doc benway]

58 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Are you are student of Dzogchen ?

 

Yes

 

58 minutes ago, rideforever said:

And what is your state of consciousness, what have you gained from your approach ?
Does your mind talk like the mind of a normal human being ?
Do you have permanent stable identity beyond the mind ?

 

These teachings and my experiences are very precious and I'm not inclined to offer them up for examination and denigration.

I've shared enough for now. 

 

Peace