Middle Class Daoism : Bagua vs MMA

[rideforever]

A big topic probably.   I was just watching an MMA guy kicking the shit out of a Bagua guy and I was contemplating what it means.

 

Personally I have always in my life put a heavy price on practical reality, meaning that when you are competent and can do then you can talk.   Otherwise all you have is ideas.   And when in working in software, as well as when studying meditation, or martial fighthing, or for the matter medicine,  you must get results, often through experimentation and seeing which is best.

 

When I was in Wu Shu Kwan (kung fu with mix of karate tae kwon do traditional shaolin forms, and with full contact sparring at end of each session) we practised traditional and it strengthened us immensely and was interesting, perhaps it informed our movements, but sparring was kickboxing basically with very little traditional movements.

 

The title about "middle class daoism" means that lazy rich idle intellectual people like to talk about fine wine and fine things, but in fact they have no competence and degenerate in their idleness and this is pretty popular, of course it has infected all the spiritual traditions.

 

Mastery of the Earth realm : surely any real spirituality must involve Mastery of this realm, shouldn't it ?   Or is spirituality something far away, something ephemeral that is of another world ???

 

So does that mean we all ditch Taichi and start doing BJJ ?

 

As for Bagua, which I never studied, I hear the circling walking changes are to emulate the trigrams and the I Ching ..... but isn't this a little literal.  To make the body look like a trigram - is that the idea ?   Isn't that a little basic as an idea, couldn't the trigram / iching concepts be incorporated at a higher level whilst leaving the body to function more normally ?   

 

I suppose you could re-engineer your car so that it also drives around in circles with palm changes ..... and then ?    Are we really appreciating the trigram here, or suffering a pretty low and too-literal understanding ?

 

Well I suppose existence does not give away it's secrets easily, and to become competent is to suffer whilst learning, to tear into you something new.

 

One avenue of solution is that life is far more real, and make of it what you will.   Meaning make yourself what you will through strong effort, life is itself alive, is itself exploring, you are exploring, as long as you are not a walking dead man.  

 

When you buy a DVD and it has a form on it ... so what ?   A form is not a system philosophy or training, it's far too small.    

 

I am not sure what this means. 

 

Art has become masturbation.   Where once it was exploration of the truth of life itself.   It was life exploring.   
Wafty tai chi might be a pleasant passtime but is quite vain isn't it ?
Is longevity in qigong a worthy goal ?
Are we just trying to get something, rather than give something ?
Isn't life lived well about giving something ?

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

A big topic probably.   I was just watching an MMA guy kicking the shit out of a Bagua guy and I was contemplating what it means.

 

Personally I have always in my life put a heavy price on practical reality, meaning that when you are competent and can do then you can talk.   Otherwise all you have is ideas.   And when in working in software, as well as when studying meditation, or martial fighthing, or for the matter medicine,  you must get results, often through experimentation and seeing which is best.

 

When I was in Wu Shu Kwan (kung fu with mix of karate tae kwon do traditional shaolin forms, and with full contact sparring at end of each session) we practised traditional and it strengthened us immensely and was interesting, perhaps it informed our movements, but sparring was kickboxing basically with very little traditional movements.

 

The title about "middle class daoism" means that lazy rich idle intellectual people like to talk about fine wine and fine things, but in fact they have no competence and degenerate in their idleness and this is pretty popular, of course it has infected all the spiritual traditions.

 

Mastery of the Earth realm : surely any real spirituality must involve Mastery of this realm, shouldn't it ?   Or is spirituality something far away, something ephemeral that is of another world ???

 

So does that mean we all ditch Taichi and start doing BJJ ?

 

Having studied both hard styles (Kyokushinkai, Shotokan) and soft styles (Aikido, Taiji), I am of the opinion that the Chinese internal martial arts are structurally sound in regards to human anatomy and physiology. In fact, they are more sophisticated and potentially more effective than the hard styles.

 

However, the thing is that their practitioners are generally more interested in meditative and health aspects, and the training revolves around that. Sure enough, there are exceptions... In the following video, you can watch a group of Chen style Taiji practitioners doing rather well against a team of Kyokushinkai  dudes.

 

 

A lot of people in the martial arts don't appreciate the kind of sophistication offered by the IMMA, which takes so much patience and attention to detail to master. Especially the 'brawlers' prefer Full-contact Karate, Muay Thai, boxing etc. - styles that emphasize fighting over 'cultivation' and lead to relatively quick results in regards to the former, especially if you are the naturally athletic type.

 

(For the record, I am now a practitioner of Kenpo Karate, which you might call a hard-soft style and actually is more of a concept than a rigorously defined system, so it leaves me plenty of room to incorporate pretty much all of my earlier martial arts background, including both 'hard' and 'soft' training methods and techniques.)

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

As for Bagua, which I never studied, I hear the circling walking changes are to emulate the trigrams and the I Ching ..... but isn't this a little literal.  To make the body look like a trigram - is that the idea ?   Isn't that a little basic as an idea, couldn't the trigram / iching concepts be incorporated at a higher level whilst leaving the body to function more normally ?   

 

I suppose you could re-engineer your car so that it also drives around in circles with palm changes ..... and then ?    Are we really appreciating the trigram here, or suffering a pretty low and too-literal understanding ?

 

I beg your pardon? Who suggested you were supposed to turn yourself into a trigram? 

 

Bear in mind that there is some kind of conceptual framework at the base of every martial art, and in the case of Bagua, it is provided by an adaptation of the eight trigrams of the Yijing and a  reception of its philosophy in general. Personally, I find this idea quite fascinating. If it is not your thing: Nobody forces you to practice Bagua. To each their own!

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Well I suppose existence does not give away it's secrets easily, and to become competent is to suffer whilst learning, to tear into you something new.

 

Some degree of suffering is inevitable sometimes when pushing your previous limits. However, a whirlwind doesn't last very long, and what really matters in the long run is steady, persistent practice. I recommend doing it daily, even if - on some occasions - you may only have 20 minutes or so to spare.

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

One avenue of solution is that life is far more real, and make of it what you will.   Meaning make yourself what you will through strong effort, life is itself alive, is itself exploring, you are exploring, as long as you are not a walking dead man.  

 

When you buy a DVD and it has a form on it ... so what ?   A form is not a system philosophy or training, it's far too small.    

 

Traditionally, a form used to be pretty much a style of its own. Or you could say that a style may have revolved around a single form (or a few forms at the most). Today, martial artists (especially newbies) are often surprised to hear that in the old days, years were spent to study just a single form, and e.g. a Karate master would usually only know a few of them. But the reason was not that those guys were much more fussy regarding the perfect execution of a form at the time; rather, they kept relentlessly practicing a multitude of applications which any good form offers and that modern practitioners in many cases still don't even have an inkling of. In many styles, the modern tendency is still to learn as many forms as possible, with little in-depth understanding of any. Although, fortunately, awareness of the real significance of forms has dramatically increased since my early Karate days.

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

I am not sure what this means. 

 

Art has become masturbation.   Where once it was exploration of the truth of life itself.   It was life exploring.   
Wafty tai chi might be a pleasant passtime but is quite vain isn't it ?

 

I am not sure what you mean by 'wafty'? Most practitioners are quite satisfied having a kind of practice conducive to their well-being. If your goals happen to be different, there will still be plenty of avenues open to you to pursue them. In fact, those avenues will be easier to locate nowadays due to the wide dissemination and accessability of information.

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Is longevity in qigong a worthy goal ?

 

A question that only you can answer... For yourself!

 

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Are we just trying to get something, rather than give something ?
Isn't life lived well about giving something ?

 

Well, to excel in any martial art (including hard styles, for that matter) requires you to give a lot of effort. That has never changed. What you give is what you get. And yes, that holds true for life in general.

[Starjumper]

MMA is a sport that favors big brutes.  They have all kinds of rules to protect the fighters.  So when most of what you do is against the rules then there's not much left to do, you need to compete on their terms, which is stupid.  The serious and deadly martial arts do not succeed in a sporting scenario with rules.

 

Just as an example, it's super easy to break the neck of someone who tries to tackle you when they hand you their head on a silver platter, but oops, that's against the rules.  So the moronic BBJ guys think they're hot shit ... and we let them continue to think that.

 

The only soft spot on some of those musclebound giants is their eyes, but it's against the rules to poke eyes out I think.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Starjumper

[thelerner]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

So does that mean we all ditch Taichi and start doing BJJ ?

 

Nah, depending on ones personality either can be great.. with different excellent lessons within them.  Neither will convey any kind of absolute protection.. the world is tricky that way.  Security is an illusion (an important one).  It's very important to know ones limit and the good and bad of ones art. 

 

I always like the idea of hard arts for the young, gradually softer as one gets older, but again it depends on one's temperament. 

[dawei]

41 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

MMA is a sport that favors big brutes.  They have all kinds of rules to protect the fighters.  So when most of what you do is against the rules then there's not much left to do, you need to compete on their terms, which is stupid.  The serious and deadly martial arts do not succeed in a sporting scenario with rules.

 

Just as an example, it's super easy to break the neck of someone who tries to tackle you when they hand you their head on a silver platter, but oops, that's against the rules.  So the moronic BBJ guys think they're hot shit ... and we let them continue to think that.

 

The only soft spot on some of those musclebound giants is their eyes, but it's against the rules to poke eyes out I think.

 

tend to disagree... brute force is good for a good punch for a knock out.  Those with martial arts have great leg kicks.. but in the early days ..

 

"Royce caught the attention of millions of fans when he choked out guys twice his size, guys like Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock."

 

He used more hand to hand combat style.  Ergo, the closer the better.

 

It should be no surprise that grapplers (past wrestlers) do very well because once you are on the ground, you can become toast.  Their weakness is if that is all they know.  But being good in grappling means to never put their neck on a silver platter... there is great game within the grapplers, I was one.  It was all about appearance to the opponent.  Show them one thing and yet the next step is completely different.  Some achieve that in boxing but that is more controlled due to being always on your feet and you can hold, pull, hit too low, etc.  The target areas are not the entire body.

 

I went to help a good wrestler to have a chance to win the state championship.  The #1 guy was always beating him.  I wrestled with him in his high school practices...  For an entire year, I let him take me to the mat but he could NEVER complete the takedown... I would win every encounter.  One day he yelled so loud with frustration, beating the wall.   So they put me with the guy 3 weight classes up to teach him... beefy and slow... easy prey.  I said better to put me back with your 'star'.   We went at it again for months... he never could complete a takedown on me.  He became to hate something... himself.. me.. not sure.. but a fire was lite.  

 

I finally tried to counter him as an attack and threw my back out... and needed 2 months to recover.  He was much younger and much stronger. I let a bit of ego sneak into the equation of 'teaching him a lesson'.  I came back and we were back to the same thing... he could never complete a takedown.

 

So why did I do this to him?  

 

He was an incredible wrestler with the weakness of impulsive and reckless attempts at takedowns.  I wanted to destroy the idea of reckless takedown and instill that a takedown is an art of strategy and patience.  

 

He won the state championship.  He destroyed the #1 guy  and so humiliated him in a way nobody saw coming... except me.  

 

Size matters at times.  But you just need to be smart enough to know how to deal with that or when it doesn't matter.

[MBZ]

With all due respect, it’s just not that easy to break a bjj black belt or professional mma fighter’s neck. Also, we use to wear blindfolds when we’d roll sometimes so once a good grappler gets a hold of you, they don’t really need to “see” you. Also, I saw a prison fight video at a seminar once where they showed a guy sitting there with his back flayed open enough to see his rib bones and one of his eyes was literally hanging about 5 inches out of his eye socket, just dangling there by the vein. The instructor then preceded to tell us that not only did the guy live, but he killed the guy that did that to him. Just sayin.

[joeblast]

When I was hangin with Lin a short while ago, he told me about a really cool evolution in how he teaches people things - give 'em what they want, what they are willing to absorb.  Those who want structure will seek structure, those who want freeform will seek freeform.  So he came up with the "Tech First" concept - as part of that, he's been doing a lot of instagram vids.  They only give you a minute - so its gotta be quick!  What he's been doing is taking parts of tai chi forms, doing that one bit of the form, and then doing combat-things right after it that give a sense of what a potential real world application of that portion of the form is.

Genius, bro

 

https://www.instagram.com/gnstudyhall/

Ironically, the MMA folks love the concept

 

 

 

 

He's got a silky smoove good Chen 83 form, too

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by joeblast

[Starjumper]

 

On 8/3/2018 at 6:43 PM, dawei said:

But being good in grappling means to never put their neck on a silver platter... there is great game within the grapplers, I was one.  It was all about appearance to the opponent.  Show them one thing and yet the next step is completely different. 

 

This brings up a fundamental difference between a fighting sport and an assassin's art.  In the ring the two opponents normally stand close to each other and trade punches.  Since they are close to each other it is easy to do that kind of trick, plus they know that you aren't allowed to break their neck so they take chances that could get them easily killed on the street.

 

The main difference of course, is that with an assassin's or military method you do not get close to the opponent and trade punches.   In most cases, in real life scenarios, we try to back away and defuse the situation and avoid a conflict which is a huge fundamental difference from the sporting arts.  There are many tricks we use and fake outs, but the main one that affects this take down scenario is keeping your distance and backing away.  This forces the attacker to move at you from a considerable distance, which gives you a lot of warning and time to prepare, and he needs to get his head down in front of you.  So it's unavoidable that they hand you their head on a silver platter.

 

Keeping your distance also forces a puncher to jump at you to get to you so we have methods similar to bagua, which is mentioned in the title, to get behind them as soon as they punch.  In other words as soon as they jump at you to punch you, you jump at them, to their side, which puts you behind them.  From here it is once again easy to do a neck break and there are ways to do it with people who have strong necks to actually have them help you break their own neck =)

 

Another thing that is easy to do in the street is that once you are behind them you can throw them down so that their head smashes against the hard sidewalk, pavement, floor, whatever.  This doesn't work in rings that have nice bouncy floors.  If the ground is like lawn and is too soft to break their head they might get knocked out, but in any case we are supposed to stomp on their neck to finish them off.

 

So you see there is a great fundamental difference between an internal art like this and a sport.  In a sport they want everyone to be able to walk away.  In an assassin's art we avoid conflict at all costs and only deal with someone who wants to really hurt or kill us, and then as soon as they move we kill them in self defense.  Like my teacher said, if the fight lasts longer than one second then you are doing it wrong.  Doesn't play well in the movies or in the ring.

 

Another thing is those MMA guys practice 40 hours a week and can hit really hard while most internal artists may practice actual combat for an hour a day.  They are also super tough and hard to hurt.  The important thing is that those MMA guys don't get into fights with submissive backers awayers on the street.  Of course they might fight some egomaniac macho man on the street, but assassins act very calm and agreeable.  There are many tricks to foil the natural instincts of trained fighters so if the MMA guy on the street wasn't a big giant heavy musclebound monster then the internal artists may still have a chance. 

 

The thing is that most internal martial artists are not aware of these kinds of tricks.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

On 8/3/2018 at 6:43 PM, dawei said:

I went to help a good wrestler to have a chance to win the state championship.  The #1 guy was always beating him.  I wrestled with him in his high school practices...  For an entire year, I let him take me to the mat but he could NEVER complete the takedown... I would win every encounter.  One day he yelled so loud with frustration, beating the wall.   So they put me with the guy 3 weight classes up to teach him... beefy and slow... easy prey.  I said better to put me back with your 'star'.   We went at it again for months... he never could complete a takedown on me.

 

It sounds like you have good abilities.  I have seen that a good tai chi player can slip out of any intended take down by a grappler, but to play that game you need to allow the grappler to get ahold of you, which is against the rules if it is a serious conflict.

[joeblast]

plus MMA has their hands taped up, so they pretty much just get to tee off and not have to worry about how or where the punches land, just make 'em rain, not much worry about a punch landing badly and breaking their fist

Edited August 10, 2018 by joeblast

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Beware the middle class approach, for they are victims of fetischization and seekers of buying of the Genuine True Exotic Other.

 

Elite level combative full contact sports are great, but in their ranks they clunt countless followers and propagators of the myths of ”realistic fight training”, ”effective self defense” and Ultimate Killer Skillz learned from people who have learned from people who have learned from people who have won many matches.

 

Its as destructive to the body, emotions and mind as it is a bunch of hyped up sports fads. If combat effectiveness is a goal that can be achieved studying any form of skill. Classic Martial Arts train a plethora of things aimed at strenghtening and stabilizing the individual in the grand total of their life. 

MMA trains you in getting pummeled by giants in speedos, getting injuries that will impair your later life if not end it prematurely and increasing loss of emotional control and compassionate awareness.

 

CMA say: ”wanna learn how to use a hammer, screwdriver and all the too,s you need to build a house and live there?”

MMA say: ”wanna learn how to be a hammer so all problems look like nails to you?”

[MBZ]

I really hope SOME of you internal guys never have to get in any kind of real fight. If you haven’t trained in a full contact combat sport and have only watched on tv, your seriously in for a big surprise. Best of luck.

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, MBZ said:

I really hope  ,,, never have to get in any kind of real fight.

what's a real fight?

 

seriously.

[MBZ]

Like I said, best of luck.

[Wu Ming Jen]

 There are grappling techniques and then there is Chi Na.

 

MMA guys are friends that do not want to kill each other. MMA are fighting for fun, With specific rules. The Gracie are incredible and a family legacy that style lends to this form of sports fighting in the ring for sure. I have a hard time watching that stuff 

 

There is no way around it…the only way to learn how to fight is by fighting.  

 

IMA is more than a martial art, it is the synthesis of the best parts of Chinese culture.  It is what happens when martial arts meet qigong and Chinese philosophy head on.  IMA develops strength, balance, coordination, focus, and stillness of heart and mind.  Understanding the principles of yin and yang will benefit all aspects of your life, from business to interpersonal relationships or the art of war.  Tai chi is a life art, and is an art you can practice for a lifetime.  IMA and MMA have a very different focus.   When we practice IMA we are fighting weakness, uncertainty, instability, insecurity, and stress.  As well as free fighting and applying  these skills so that they have a practical application and this does not lend itself to sport fighting so much

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

27 minutes ago, MBZ said:

Like I said, best of luck.

LOL)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murdered_boxers

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Please.

I’ve had plenty ”real” fights to last me a lifetime before i turned 15, i’ve not struck a single person in anger or fear since because i cannot for my life see why a fully avoidable solution needs to be escalated.

I’ve been checked out by real, gun toting thigs and been left alone after an initial contact, we understood eachother well enough to leave dumb stuff be.

I’ve had an experienced teacher of San Shou/MMA ”accidentally” punching my face hard because he got excited, wanted to test me. I give him nothing and his shame is complete.

Same guy tries to demonstrate surprise knife attack in front of a group thinking i’m not paying attention and i react with my art and pull my finger jab a centimeter from his eye. It took him three full seconds to say ”very good reflexes man!”, tried to play it off like his attack was insincere but i saw the look he gave me. That man has serious inferiority complexes.

 

Last time some wannabe streetfighter wanted a piece of me after being told repeatedly and calmly to just leave i stared him down, took two of his thigh-killers without flinching and asked him if his hearing was faulty or if he was just an idiot. I refuse to use any attacking skill on him because i cherish the privilege of studying my art and i can live without wasting effort on smacking sense into sensless ”fighters” and ending up in court over some bullshit. He backed off when he saw his provocation was refused.

 

Speaking of real fighting is a dead giveaway to expose yourself as having fantasies of being a Warrior.

[MBZ]

Interesting that so many of you were triggered by what I said...You Tai Chi tough guys are cute...hehe

[Wu Ming Jen]

13 hours ago, MBZ said:

Interesting that so many of you were triggered by what I said...You Tai Chi tough guys are cute...hehe

Do you train MMA?  We have MMA  guys on the mountain they come to learn stuff. One guy kept being obviously defeated in a nice way.

When he got angry about it one of the coaches he was free fighting with (who are kids in there early 20,s they train 8 hours a day living here from age 5) hit him on the middle point under the collar bone which is a temporary paralyzing of  that arm and he could not continue. 

 

The master watching quickly rubbed it down and he was given some herbs, It freaked him out enough to become very humble after that. He turned out to be a good guy he just lost his mind a bit.

 

But the whole topic is dumb and internet fights of preconceived ideas are hilarious.

 

If you are looking for a date with a cute tai chi fighter then you will need to go to the TDB dating sub-form 

[whitesilk]

Isn't Ba Gua an advanced form of Feng Shui?

 

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Isn't Ba Gua an advanced form of Feng Shui?

 

 

No, Bagua Zhang is a martial art, whereas Feng Shui has to do with architecture and interior design. What they have in common is that the famous arrangement of eight trigrams (also called Bagua) from the Yijing is central to both of them.

 

I think that this is why you mixed them up.

[Fa Xin]

Luckily I knew how to fight long before starting Bagua, and I could appreciate the art for it's full potential, which is much more than just fighting.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

Luckily I knew how to fight long before starting Bagua, and I could appreciate the art for it's full potential, which is much more than just fighting.

 

Agreed.

 

While the IMA are potentially extremely effective for self-defence (proper instruction in this respect provided), they are also fantastic qigong practices in their own right.

[whitesilk]

so, wu tang style? I watch alot of movies.

 

I litreally have a box set titled eight trigram fighters or something.

 

I'm more into this for the health benfits, even though I am a smoker. So balance I guess.

 

Is Wu Tang, Shaolin Style the same?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by whitesilk

[Wu Ming Jen]

Shaolin temple is located north of Wudang Mountain two different places and schools. Wudang is considered an internal martial art  and Taoist.

 

Shaolin is considered an external martial art that has been infused with Buddhism.  Both paths lead to the same place. Internal and external combined. Both schools practice hard and soft techniques.

 

The Taoist influence of Buddhism of Shaolin is very apparent.  

 

Black tiger cave on Wudang Mountain was a clan from Shaolin back in the day. Today monks from both places travel back and forth and share knowledge.