Middle Class Daoism : Bagua vs MMA

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-08-23 at 2:07 AM, MBZ said:

Interesting that so many of you were triggered by what I said...You Tai Chi tough guys are cute...hehe

 

I’m pretty sure i hit most branches falling down the ugly tree but whatever malao. Tell you what i find interesting: that you choose smug and belittling to follow up ignorance and presumption. I guess you must have a lot of people lining up to be your significant other in your daily life, good for you. I wish you all the best and no friction or troubles in life.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-08-24 at 5:10 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

 

... Feng Shui has to do with architecture and interior design.

 

I’d say thats a hard understatement.

Feng Shui is pretty deep, it has to do with aligning and finding the spots and areas that might be beneficial or troublesome for a given project such as building a home, farming etc. 

Feng and Shui are wind and water, the basic necessities for building any survival worthy anything. To harness wind and water you need mountains, temperature changes in cyclical patterns, certain types of soil and light etc.

 

It has just as much to do with interior design and architechture as astronomy, astrology, metereology, geology, land surveying and project leading and organization as well as other things.

I’d go so far as to say that it’s a way to aid in the cultuvation and preservation of ming and xing on a social and external level, aligning with the principles of tao as they appear in a given area.

I’m no expert or even dabbler but i am close with a FS master and the stuff he keeps track of and calculates alone , without reference material or paper or pen, are immense. I think he works from the Flying Star School but knowing him he probably uses multiple systems depending on what needs doing...

 

If i could get him to teach me for real, omg.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

I’d say thats a hard understatement.

Feng Shui is pretty deep, it has to do with aligning and finding the spots and areas that might be beneficial or troublesome for a given project such as building a home, farming etc. 

Feng and Shui are wind and water, the basic necessities for building any survival worthy anything. To harness wind and water you need mountains, temperature changes in cyclical patterns, certain types of soil and light etc.

 

It has just as much to do with interior design and architechture as astronomy, astrology, metereology, geology, land surveying and project leading and organization as well as other things.

I’d go so far as to say that it’s a way to aid in the cultuvation and preservation of ming and xing on a social and external level, aligning with the principles of tao as they appear in a given area.

I’m no expert or even dabbler but i am close with a FS master and the stuff he keeps track of and calculates alone , without reference material or paper or pen, are immense. I think he works from the Flying Star School but knowing him he probably uses multiple systems depending on what needs doing...

 

I had to simplify a bit in order to contrast Feng Shui with Bagua Zhan. There is more than meets the eye at first glance in the latter too, but the two arts differ in their emphasis.

 

6 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

If i could get him to teach me for real, omg.

 

It's fine to dream.

 

[joeblast]

On 8/10/2018 at 7:48 AM, joeblast said:

plus MMA has their hands taped up, so they pretty much just get to tee off and not have to worry about how or where the punches land, just make 'em rain, not much worry about a punch landing badly and breaking their fist

...watched a bareknucle bout sat night get stopped because it was obvious a dude broke his hand...

[whitesilk]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:15 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Shaolin temple is located north of Wudang Mountain two different places and schools. Wudang is considered an internal martial art  and Taoist.

 

Shaolin is considered an external martial art that has been infused with Buddhism.  Both paths lead to the same place. Internal and external combined. Both schools practice hard and soft techniques.

 

The Taoist influence of Buddhism of Shaolin is very apparent.  

 

Black tiger cave on Wudang Mountain was a clan from Shaolin back in the day. Today monks from both places travel back and forth and share knowledge.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification!

Could Luotang Mountain be Wudang Mountain?

[MBZ]

Apologies to anyone I offended, seriously.

Blessings!

[whitesilk]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:15 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Shaolin temple is located north of Wudang Mountain two different places and schools. Wudang is considered an internal martial art  and Taoist.

 

Shaolin is considered an external martial art that has been infused with Buddhism.  Both paths lead to the same place. Internal and external combined. Both schools practice hard and soft techniques.

 

The Taoist influence of Buddhism of Shaolin is very apparent.  

 

Black tiger cave on Wudang Mountain was a clan from Shaolin back in the day. Today monks from both places travel back and forth and share knowledge.

 

So, Wudang is a higher order than Shaolin:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Long

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by whitesilk

[windwalker]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:19 AM, rideforever said:

Art has become masturbation.   Where once it was exploration of the truth of life itself.   It was life exploring.   
Wafty tai chi might be a pleasant passtime but is quite vain isn't it ?
Is longevity in qigong a worthy goal ?
Are we just trying to get something, rather than give something ?
Isn't life lived well about giving something ?

 

you might try reading this to  understand Who, when, why and how the art changed.

 

Quote

For the martial arts to succeed in the 20th century they would need to transition.  They had to be made appealing to increasingly educated and modern middle-class individuals living in urban areas.  It would be hard to imagine a group more different from the rural farm youths that had traditionally practiced these arts.  But this is the task that the early martial reformers of the 20th century dedicated themselves too.

 

Quote

Sun Lutang is a central figure in all of this.  In fact, his theoretical legacy is actually probably more important than his martial one (some factions in the Chinese martial arts community have distrusted him for a variety of reasons).  If we can better understand why Sun believed that there was a connection between Daoism and the martial arts, we might be able to bring some clarity to a major issue in the field of Chinese martial studies.

 

 

Quote

The traditional Chinese martial arts may have started out as a method for fighting, but in the post-WWII period they quickly became a means of identity formation.  It is not that the need for self-defense has ever really gone away, but other less tangible concerns have risen to the fore.  For displaced refugees in Taiwan and Hong Kong following the 1949 takeover, questions about what it meant to be Chinese while living in exile became critical.  The Cultural Revolution and its aftermath left a generation of young people in mainland China struggling to find their way in the world.  Likewise the martial arts in the west are often tied to a desire to self-create a new identity.  https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/14/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutangs-unified-theory-of-the-chinese-martial-arts-daoist-spirituality-health-and-boxing-part-iii/

 

 

Posted some of what I felt were main points in answer to some of your questions and some other post, posted here.

Each can read and come to their own conclusion.....

 

For me it seems pretty clear what happened, why and how.

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-08-29 at 7:15 PM, joeblast said:

...watched a bareknucle bout sat night get stopped because it was obvious a dude broke his hand...

Which accidentically can happen even to an iron hand master who can break whatever with his hands. 

Saw that in - 96, when the teacher spent his last days in the course with his hands in a cast, after a street fight. 😁 

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-08-29 at 10:50 PM, whitesilk said:

 

So, Wudang is a higher order than Shaolin:

Eh, yes. 

Or, no. 

It's complicated. 

 

But if you rephrase that to "It is more likely that you will encounter the external shaolin methods" I would say you are spot on 😁

[whitesilk]

was sort of, speaking of altitude only, and attempting to make humor.

 

In the Huainanzi, it speaks of Luotang or Warrior Mountain, out of curiosity, are they referring to the the same location as Wudang mountain? I looked it up quick. Luotong Mountain is north of Korea, and not Wudang, however, to note, the Kunlun Mountains are the center of the ancient map, and Luotang Mountain is printed in the Huainanzi as lying to the north west. Luotong mountain is southwest to the Kunlun mountains according to the world wide web.

Edited September 6, 2018 by whitesilk

[Integrated]

When it comes to fighting it is never about the art itself, but always about the person.

It would be like comparing poems from different languages,

and if you found a horrible English poet, lay the blame on the english language itself and not the poet.

And tribute maybe the German language itself if a German poet excelled.

 

Yet when people turn to martial arts, such reasonable statements fades away.

It has mostly to do with the group identity that people project onto their art.

Just like when people are swept up in a patriotic fervour sometimes when their country goes to war,

in the same way martial artists feel patriotism when "one of their own" goes into the ring.

Gone are all logic and reason, all that is left is the honor of the ingroup.

 

So it is mostly a psychological thing.

As for MMA, (mixed martial arts), there is not the same indentification, as any style/system goes, as long as it is effective.

Naturally such a person will have a great advantage against a purist, that have a bigger worry about the honor of the clan,

than if his actual skills are enough to win the fight.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I think Integrateds post is far more relevant than considering the state of the arts today, since so much of those explanations also revert to the level and skill of the individual practitioner.

 

The watering down of certain arts and styles might have to do with cultural affirmation or establishing identity, but such is not the case for all styles and it is important to remember that many lineage holders fled persecution because of their arts.

MA in the west is similarly not subject to any fair generalization as it again boils down to individuals studying, interpersonal chemistry, all sorts of things.

 

The Middle Class is a societal group and exonomic strata that are on one hand responsible for supporting the economic development and influence its direction, but they are also the spearheading cadre upon whom a certain mass production or demand vs quality is tested and spurred on when the economy is at a climactic phase (up or down).

Martial arts has in part been fetishized and the dilution of the skill is partially blameable on wether or not practicioners approach it as a learnable and developable skill or a commodity. In the case of the latter skill is of lower priority than the associable meaning of owning such a commodity.

This is NOTHING new. Styles have been born and died since forever, people who think they can buy real progress of skill get beaten up for wanting to show off and confident people of moderate skill get a nice boost to their sense of purpose and the relevant need for acknowledgment satisfied.

Complete merrygoround of bleh for the sharp-eyed observer.

 

Thats a generalization, but i’m trying to explain how it can appear that a classical or traditional MA seems bogus when tested.

If the testee is a buyer of MA their skill is probably not noteworthy however meaningful for them.

If they instead reveal themselves to be actual students their skill is far more likely to demonstrate something that satisfies the onlooker.

Thats right, because it is a question of what spectators see and what test-subjects are able to project that satisfies their (spectators) standards for what an effective MA is.

Bagua vs MMA is such a case, and the ongoing talk about results in a mess imho.

[Integrated]

6 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

The watering down of certain arts and styles might have to do with cultural affirmation or establishing identity, but such is not the case for all styles and it is important to remember that many lineage holders fled persecution because of their arts.

MA in the west is similarly not subject to any fair generalization as it again boils down to individuals studying, interpersonal chemistry, all sorts of things.

 

Yeah, not all styles are infused with a klanish attitude just like a fotball team,

but most people project that attitude onto martial arts in general from watching movies and the like.

 

Quote

Martial arts has in part been fetishized and the dilution of the skill is partially blameable on wether or not practicioners approach it as a learnable and developable skill or a commodity. In the case of the latter skill is of lower priority than the associable meaning of owning such a commodity.

 

I'm a part-time freelancer, and have my skills marketable under the mask of "Tai-Chi". Recently one of my fellow "consultent" at this project I'm hired to do, learned that I taught it, he soon came back the next day talking about this fitness center that apparantly taught it. He wanted to compare my teaching to that, even though I told him nothing except the Tai-Chi name and that I'm very pricey.

 

Part of the price is just to keep all the misinformed yahoo's that want to learn from exploiting me. I can teach, but only the very specially interested and dedicated. I actually am quite pleased that I can discourage customers with my price.

 

Anyway the long and the short of it was that he was trying to convince me that since I had competition, my prices was not right...

I took a look at their website, and they called it "Balanced Energy" and had some weird mix of yoga, tai-chi and pilates. It was dumbed down and made into a neatly packaged consumer product. No internal value, no martial value, just regular excercise.

 

Quote

Thats right, because it is a question of what spectators see and what test-subjects are able to project that satisfies their (spectators) standards for what an effective MA is.

Bagua vs MMA is such a case, and the ongoing talk about results in a mess imho.

 

Hehe, I remember when I was about 21-22 and had a few years of Tai-Chi practice, plus a few other martial arts skills installed. I met a kickboxer, a former "stormtrooper" from the Army and what passes for a Hillbilly in my country. Each of them taught me in their own way that even though I did well in certain scenarios and my forms, when put to the mettle in wrestling with the big bulky army guy, sparring with kickboxing gloves, or the hillbilly being uncooperative just for the hell of it, my art mostly failed. A fight is always messy, so ones skills need to be extreme to be able to compansate for it. That being said, the rare occation I for example threw the bulky army guy effortlessly to the ground, the look on his face was priceless.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Integrated