David Verdesi's credentials and research

[Gamuret]

Hello!

 

I've been quietly following this on and off debate around David Verdesi for quite some time. I don't want to enter into any philosophical, ideological or other discussions. I also don't intend to pass any judgement, because time will sooner or later tell or at least give an indication about the true nature of D. Verdesi's work.

 

The thing that I do want to do is to put forward some thoughts and I'd really be interested to hear answers, containing facts. No philosophy, religious history or similar please - just plain, old facts.

 

Apart of seeing it at the new Verdesi-website, I noticed in many places that D. Verdesi is referred to as Dr. Verdesi and introduced as being an anthropologist.

 

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

 

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

 

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

 

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

 

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

 

What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions?

 

At the new Traditionaltao website it's also being said (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1):

 

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

 

With which major universities and hospitals in China and the US exactly did David Verdesi do his collaborative research? Where can one access the results of these researches i. e. peer-reviewed journals, etc.?

 

I'm really interested to get feedback from folks who might know these things.

 

Gamuret

Edited February 5, 2008 by Gamuret

[Taiji Bum]

Those are impressive credentials. I'd like to know too. Sounds like a fascinating guy to drink a beer with.

[Gamuret]

Darin, I think many of the people (including me) who come to hear about D. Verdesi are keen to know something more tangible about his academic credentials and research.

 

I hope that D. Verdesi's students reading from this forum will be willing to offer some answers.

 

And guys, please - no philosophy, no religious history, no fancy talk. Just plain, old facts.

 

G.

 

P. S. By the way, how old is David Verdesi actually?

Edited February 3, 2008 by Gamuret

[Pietro]

...

 

Apart of seeing it at the new Verdesi-website, I noticed in many places that D. Verdesi is referred to as Dr. Verdesi and introduced as being an anthropologist.

 

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

 

...

Hello Gamuret,

my name is Pietro, and I use to know David when he was in Italy. We since long time lost track of each other. But I might be able to add my .02 cents.

 

David is slightly younger than me, unless he grew older faster than me in the last 10 years :-D.

When I was 22 I think he was 19, so now he would be about 34-35.

 

The second thing, is that David is, like me, Italian. In Italy, when you get your Laurea you become Dr. The law has changed just in the last years, so what I tell you might not be correct anymore. It is about 10 years that I have left Italy. In any case a Laurea (according to the old law), was more than a simple degree, and less than a master. It included a thesis (which a normal degree usually doesn't), but the thesis was not considered a publication (unless you publish it later). As such a bachelor degree would not be considered valid in Italy according to the old law. You would have needed to do some extra exam, or at the least write and submit a thesis.

 

But yes, I think the thesis is a public document, so I suspect that if he got a Laurea from an Italian university you might be allowed to go to the library of that university and get a copy of it, at least for some years after the candidate has got his degree. Often also supervisors keep the thesis of their students, so if you find out who his supervisor was, you might ask the favor to have it for some hours, just for long enough for you to photocopy it.

 

So, all this to say that David can call himself Dr. Verdesi without having done a PhD. He just needs an italian Laurea. So how are people who finish a doctorate called in Italy? Still Dr.

Is all this confusing? Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy.

 

I also 'kind of' remember that David was teaching at some point in a Sweedish University. Could be a course in 'Compared Religion'. Although I don't know exactly what the content of the course was.

 

Hope this helped clarify the confusion. (well maybe it just made it deeper )

 

Pietro

[Gamuret]

Hi Pietro,

 

thank you for clearing up (at least somewhat) the confusion regarding Italian academic degrees! I hope that also some students of David Verdesi will be able to offer answers on this and other relevant questions.

 

The interesting thing though is that David Verdesi has been consistently referred to as a Dr. Verdesi or with a Ph. D. behind his surname.

 

Just to give you some examples:

 

Ian Baker's website http://www.rarejourneys.com/Events.htm

 

A Turkish magazine containing an article of his in Turkish http://ww.astrolojigazetesi.com/cemsen.pdf

 

Although the old Verdesi-website cannot be accessed anymore via the Internet Archive service I was able to digg up the old introduction of his credentials somewhere saying:

 

"BIOGRAPHY

David Verdesi (Shen) BC. MT. PhD

 

Born in Rome, David has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition ranging from Shamanism through the main schools of Daoism including recent research in universities and hospitals. Dr Verdesi has spent the last three years travelling around the globe to complete his research in anthropology and comparative religion.

 

David has studied traditional Chinese Qi Gong, Daoism and Shamanism focusing on communication and codification of myth, mysticism and spirituality in the development of this system of knowledge. Such research lead him to study with a number of exponents of traditional Chinese culture and related systems in Asia and South America. Among his main teachers in relation to the Chinese tradition in chronological order."

 

Please pay close attention to the acronyms behind his name i. e. BC. MT. PhD. Would you mind explaining them in the light of academic degrees as used in the Italian educational system?

 

You said you knew D. Verdesi way back when you were both still in Italy. Do you perhaps know which university did he attend? Both for undergraduate as well as postgraduate studies (if he did any)?

 

You also mentioned David Verdesi teaching a course at a Swedish university. Do you perhaps remember the name of it?

 

Finally it is interesting to note that the phrase "Dr. Verdesi" was frequently used in the public introduction of the "Foundation Training"-forum, but this has now been removed over night and there is not even a trace of "Dr. Verdesi" or "David Verdesi Ph. D" (the same goes for his new website). Just to back my claims, please take a look at the following links and see for yourself:

 

This is the new "Foundation Training"-forum public face with Verdesi's resume (edited yesterday) - no trace of Dr. Verdesi: http://foundation73.proboards55.com/index....2483&page=1

 

This is the "old" version of the same site from February 17 2007 obtained via Internet Archive (hope it'll remain there in the future):

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20070217195845/...2483&page=1

 

As you can seen "Dr. Verdesi" is used in almost every paragraph.

 

Yet again the version from June 4 2007:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20070604142352/...2483&page=1

 

The same thing.

 

You see, the problem is that people have been concentrating too much on the philosophical or spiritual side of the whole affair. These things are most difficult to verify. How can you know for sure if the stories about all these "great" masters are true? You cannot say they are true, neither that they are false, because you were not there. Therefore let people check the things that can be checked (see the questions in my original post) - perhaps with some effort, but still.

 

There's been too much mud-slinging offering ground for spin-doctoring from all accross the spectrum of Verdesi's adherents as well as his detractors. Let's just try to find out the good, plain ol' facts.

 

G.

 

P. S. Pietro, it's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that:

 

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

 

Has it perhaps come to your ears with which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US D. Verdesi has been doing his "collaborative research"?

Edited February 3, 2008 by Gamuret

[Gamuret]

P. P. S. One more thing, Pietro. The most interesting part in your past was this:

 

"Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy."

 

So, if D. Verdesi would have been using the title Ph. D. while out of Italy and if he of course didn't write, submit and defend a proper doctoral thesis, then it would be inaccurate. Is this correct? I mean just using the title "Dr." based on his "Laurea" outside of Italy.

[sunshine]

Wow Gamuret. I have a thought about this I better do not tell...

 

The trouble is that from country to country there are different rules as what you can carry and how to carry it. I for example am a medical doctor. In some parts of Europe you get the degree "Dr." without having to write a thesis when finishing university, in Germany you need to write a thesis. This "Dr." might be considered equivalent to the Phd in some regards but it is not as there is no Phd. as title in Europe as far as I know. P.hd. stands for Philosophiae Doctor but a German doctor of philosphy does not get the title of Phd. in this country. I am not quite sure why Pietro can not carry his title. I am pretty sure he can. When I leave my country and I actually carry the degree I carry the degree.

 

I have further an M.A. in social sciences (major sociology, secondary philosophy and psychology), but the M.A. (= Magister Artium) is not the same as the M.A. Americans for example are used to. I for example had no bachelor degree as a few years back this was not part at universities in Germany. They changed that now though as far as I realized.

 

Then there is the Diploma in Germany which is completely different to what Americans know as diploma.

 

so. To focus on the degree is not very helpful I feel.

 

Regarding possible collaborations I can tell your for sure that there is a Professor in Vienna (if I remember correctly) who is planning studies with David and his masters (or one of them). I have been in contact with him (a short email-exchange) and know that he is not a virtual construct.

 

No more information I can share.

 

 

Harry

Edited February 3, 2008 by sunshine

[Gamuret]

Thanks Sunshine!

 

The introductory part was interesting, but I'm more interested in facts i.e. names of the institutions, exact dates - to sum it up hard facts that can be checked.

 

It's not just about the academic degrees, but also about other claims. I simply cannot understand why things have to be kept so vague. Why is it nowhere mentioned at which university did David Verdesi study? Just look up any CV of any minor public figure or academic. All of them have it written where and when they studied.

 

The next thing that makes me wonder is the one I already mentioned. It's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that:

 

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

 

Which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US? Harvard? Yale? Tsinghua University? MIT?

 

What kind of "collaborative research"? Where can it be accessed? Was it published in any peer-reviewed journal?

 

Further it's been said that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government. Which parts of it? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

 

I'm interested in facts that can bee checked.

 

Then you are saying:

 

"Regarding possible collaborations I can tell your for sure that there is a Professor in Vienna (if I remember correctly) who is planning studies with David and his masters (or one of them). I have been in contact with him (a short email-exchange) and know that he is not a virtual construct."

 

What kind of a professor? A professor engaged in what kind of studies? Physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, history, etc? Is he from the University of Vienna? Which department exactly? How can he be reached?

 

Look, please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying you're making it up. The problem is that I simply don't understand why one has to be so vague !

 

G.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Gamuret

[Gamuret]

P. S. Sunshine at least in one instance your words were misleading. You said:

 

"This 'Dr.' might be considered equivalent to the Phd in some regards but it is not as there is no Phd. as title in Europe as far as I know. P.hd. stands for Philosophiae Doctor but a German doctor of philosphy does not get the title of Phd. in this country."

 

Please consult the Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate. Under the heading Germany, there appears this quote:

 

"Dr. phil. (Doctor philosophiae - most of the humanities)"

 

Please tell me what kind of degree is a German doctor of philosophy awarded with if not a Doctor philosophiae? Isn't philosophy a discpline belonging under the humanities? In what way is then a Philosophiae Doctor different from Doctor philosophiae? If I remember my Latin then what we see here is just the reverse word order. The content though may be different, that is true.

 

Take care, Sunshine!

 

G.

[sunshine]

>>It's not just about the academic degrees, but also about other claims. I simply cannot understand why things have to be kept so vague. Why is it nowhere mentioned at which university did David Verdesi study? Just look up any CV of any minor public figure or academic. All of them have it written where and when they studied.<<

 

I don't know Gamuret. I very much understand what you ask for but once again. Everybody deals with things differently. When I meet doctors from India they hand me visiting cards you can unfold and list even the credentials of their grandfather's grandfather. I hardly ever mention my degrees. Further: It is usually only necessary to write those things if you are in an academic context. If you are not it simply is not necessary. I know that all this does not help as you are keen for an answer. I can not give it though.

 

>>What kind of a professor? A professor engaged in what kind of studies? Physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, history, etc? Is he from the University of Vienna? Which department exactly? How can he be reached?<<

 

Here it gets a little tricky. I can tell you that he is PhD, Assoc. Prof.

at the Medical University of Vienna

Department of Pathophysiology

 

but I hope you understand that I won't give away his name. There is no reason you can trust me, but if you are interested in my part of of academic studies and this is enough to give me some trust: search pubmed for (note: named edited out for reasons explained below) (just two articles so far written in the context with others).

 

>>The problem is that I simply don't understand why one has to be so vague !<<

 

There are many possibilities for it...

 

got to go to bed

 

If you want to know why I do not easily give out the name please PM me.

 

 

Harry

 

 

 

>>Please tell me what kind of degree is a German doctor of philosophy awarded with if not a Doctor philosophiae?<<

 

Well. It is the Dr. phil. = doctor of philosophiae, but it is not the American Phd. Getting back to Wikipedia there is stated:

 

>>In the English-speaking world it has become the most common denomination for a research doctorate and applies to graduates in a wide array of disciplines in the sciences and humanities<<

 

The German Dr. phil. does no have this position and applies only to somebody having written a thesis in philosophy.

 

 

Harry

Edited February 4, 2008 by sunshine

[Oolong Rabbit]

P. P. S. One more thing, Pietro. The most interesting part in your past was this:

 

"Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy."

 

So, if D. Verdesi would have been using the title Ph. D. while out of Italy and if he of course didn't write, submit and defend a proper doctoral thesis, then it would be inaccurate. Is this correct? I mean just using the title "Dr." based on his "Laurea" outside of Italy.

 

In the Canadian university system we have a regular Bachelor of Arts (B.A.). and then we have a B.A. Honors program. In the honors program one is required to write a thesis, however there is no real difference in terms of titles afterwards. The honors program is geared more towards preparing one for their Masters and P.H.D. The Italian system sounds quite archaic, and I am not surprised that they would change it. Calling yourself a Dr. with a Bachelor's degree anywhere else in the world would not sit well at all. Perhaps David has some sort of honorary P.H.D., so I will give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[Franklin]

as an outside observer with no interest in anything besides this is mildly amusing

 

i don't think the questions Gamuret posed are too much to ask or crossing any line

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

 

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

 

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

 

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

 

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

 

if he is advertising himself as a Dr. or legitimately advertising or stating these other things then it is natural to ask for some specifics...

 

now if different countries have different requirements for degrees then that would be fine but still if questions like the above are posed then it would not be hard to state facts

 

coming from the outside as just an observer my take on this is that the Dr. and anthropology jist is supposed to lend an air of credence to the assumption of this line/training as being the "real deal"

 

it is also interesting that "Dr." seems to be edited out of publicly available information

 

 

franklin

[Gamuret]

I agree Oolong! We should not jump to any conclusions or be unfair to anyone.

 

The thing is that it's not just the Ph.D. or Dr. or whatever. It's also other claims. I'm not saying that they are false, but I simply don't see any sense in keeping it so vague and this vagueness does make me suspicious.

 

 

Look, the problem is that high-sounding academic degrees, research history, etc. often convey or at least try to convey credibility to something one's selling and thereby attract more people.

 

I mean, how would you feel as a customer if somebody would write on his website offering his products or services: "Hi, I'm Joe Schmoe, been living for the last 15 years as a bum in New York. Now I've a website, please buy my stuff!"

 

I don't have a problem if people beef up their ads with writting down academic degrees or telling about their research. But then they should do it properly! "Major universities and hospitals in China and US". Which major unversities? Yale? Harvard? Tsinghua? Beijing Daxue? MIT?

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Franklin!

 

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I mean. YOu got my point.

 

What I also find strange is that the "Foundation Forum"-site was edited yesterday with all "Dr. Verdesi" replaced by David Verdesi. I checked it!

 

I wonder how long will the older version that I quoted be kept freely accessible at the Internet Archive service

Edited February 3, 2008 by Gamuret

[Gamuret]

Thanks Sunshine for providing some tangible data. I can understand about not revealing the name of the professor publicly. It's a project in the making and until it is completed it would be unfair to expect any data or results of the research.

 

The thing is that I'm much more interested in past accomplishments and credentials than projects which are still in the preparation and not finished. When they are finished, let us know were we can see the results - if possible a peer-reviewed journal.

 

I'm interested in hard facts about the claims that are being made about David Verdesi's past academic accomplishments and affiliations. And of course his claims of Chinese government supporting his work. Ditto for his masters.

 

G.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Gamuret

[Adam West]

[Gerard]

Hi Adam,

 

Could you please edit your post? The same story has been repeated three times even thought the quotes have different dates.

 

Thank you.

 

 

[Gamuret]

Thanks Adam! Good that you've done this. I'm really interested to see if the archived pages of the Foundation-forum will get blocked on Internet Archive.

 

I also don't understand why they replaced all the "Dr. Verdesi" on their forum by "David Verdesi" overnight.

 

The most basic questions as listed in my 1st post in the beginning still stands.

 

Hopefully somebody will come up with some answers

 

Durkhrod, the text of the three posts is almost the same. The only difference being the use of "Dr." before Verdesi's name in the old version and the absence of it in the recent one.

 

Still, I'd encourage people to take a look at the links themselves that I provided up above.

[sunshine]

Hi Gamuret,

 

While I very much understand why such questions are raised (although I have no clue what your personal intent to ask them is) I want to be honest: I neither think you will actually get the information you look for, nor do I think anyone of those who know should feel in any way pressured to give it out (whatever way they look like).

 

 

note: In order for noone to unnecessarily become suspicious and possibly even go into length of creating a conspiracy theory out of why I edited out my full name in the above post (quite some of the discussions in recent times indeed have been quite bizarre):

 

Gamuret read my message and saw my name so there is no reason to leave it there. I am a little bit phobic to be honest: in modern times to have ones name all over the internet is not such a good idea. Think about a possible future boss of mine googling my name and finally finding themselve reading my blog about my initital experiences with the Aneros... (SHUDDER)

 

 

Harry

[Gamuret]

Harry, it's no problem, I can understand the thing regarding your name. You should not feel any need to defend yourself, because it's not about you. You tried to provide some information and I appreciate it.

 

My intention is to find the Truth. I've no ax to grind against Verdesi. I'm not asking about any secrets or anything, but about things that should be freely accessible.

 

Is it not normal for any person to want to verify claims being made? And I'm intersted in claims that can be verified. Therefore I intentionally refrained from making any judgement about D. Verdesi's school, tradition, experiences with his masters, etc. It would be unfair to judge about something in public, that I don't know about. Privately I can have my opinion. But I'm not interested in opinions, but in hard facts.

 

G.

[sunshine]

Hi Gamuret,

 

>>My intention is to find the Truth. I've no ax to grind against Verdesi. I'm not asking about any secrets or anything, but about things that should be freely accessible.<<

 

I fully get your point, Gamuret. But the question to ask is: why am "I" looking for a certain "truth" and what do I do with it if "I" found "it". Say you were actually interested in studying with someone. In that case I think asking those questions can be considered valid and beneficial. Say you have a friend who intends to study with him and you have your doubts and worries and and and. Again I personally consider the search valid and beneficial. But just looking for "Truth" focussing on one person... I don't know.

 

The following is not about David. I have no ideas about his background with regard to the questions raised. Just in general (so please. Whoever reads it. No need to filter the following through the lense of: Harry knows more and tells us in a roundabout way that it's all just claims!):

Whereever you go you will find claims that do resemble truth only to certain extent. In many instances truth is a pretty elastic term. Do you think that all those Professors who seem to have written hundreds and hundreds of articles actually did? I was once so naive to actually believe that and wonder how they do it and how genius-like they are. Today I know it simply is not true (well. sure enough in some cases it indeed is). You asked for a peer-review of the intended upcoming study. Do you actually know it is not that easy to get even quite okay studies published in high-level magazines? I am right now in the process of finding it out.

 

I do not know if you are American. I am German and I always felt the American way of advertisement to be threatening. Claims are made a thousandfold.

 

Further: I have seen biographies and you get sick reading them: oh yes. I had this teacher and that. And then I have a degree here. And another and another... I could have such a biography as well. What people usually don't tell you is that they often just trained one weekend here and there. But they list it all and as if they were the most close students of whoever.

 

I very much realize that all of the above is leading away from your request. I understand it and in other cases likely would ask or at least search for the same.

 

>Is it not normal for any person to want to verify claims being made?<

 

Well. To certain extent it is. Unfortunately there are some who just have an obsession trying to completely deconstruct what they do not like and leave no stone unturned... I don't perceive you that way. In your case I just have the question in the back of my mind: do you just ask for clarities sake or with something else in mind. If you were to learn the Truth: Would you then just troll along being happy you found it? (sorry. Sounds as if I am making fun of you here. Not intended though. Just don'T know a different way to put it).

 

>>And I'm intersted in claims that can be verified. Therefore I intentionally refrained from making any judgement about D. Verdesi's school, tradition, experiences with his masters, etc. It would be unfair to judge about something in public, that I don't know about. Privately I can have my opinion. But I'm not interested in opinions, but in hard facts.<<

 

I appreciate that mindset.

 

 

Harry

Edited February 4, 2008 by sunshine

[Gamuret]

Hi Harry,

 

thanks for your thoughts. But as mentioned in the beginning I wouldn't like the whole discussion to turn too philosophical. Let's just stick to facts.

 

G.

[Gamuret]

P.S. I just want my questions answered for the clarities sake and not anything else. Since David Verdesi has put his name in the public, making claims with far-reaching implications, the he should expect such questions to be asked. If he would put the names and dates on his webpage, there would be nothing to ask and I wouldn't raise the topic. I simply don't know what is there to hide.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Gamuret

[Adam West]

Hi Adam,

 

Could you please edit your post? The same story has been repeated three times even thought the quotes have different dates.

 

Thank you.

 

Hi durkhrod chogori!

 

With absolute respect and kindness, I will leave the post as it is, as its purpose is to archive in this thread a historical presentation of David's biography as it was at three different dates on the same site. So the links to the original sites are now preserved as is the content of the sites themselves. I realize it is a large amount of apparently "dead" text, of which I too cringe, yet its research importance supersedes the impulse to edit it.

 

You have my sincere oppologies! I beg your tolerance and indulgence in this matter.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Adam West

[Gamuret]

I don't know why Sean Denty is so silent. Usually he is the first to offer fresh information and occassionally (whenever it is needed, of course) to correct unskillful views as far as his teacher David Verdesi is concerned.

 

As before I wonder why is David Verdesi not referred to as "Dr. David Verdesi" or "David Verdesi, Ph. D." anymore - I mean at the Foundation-forum introductory article and his new website.

 

I hope Sean Denty as most qualified here will be able to offer some answers regarding my questions. I'm pretty sure, that many members of this forum wonder why he has been so silent on this matter.

 

Perhaps we just have to poke at Sean a little bit - like at a sleepy badger to cajole him out of his slumber. I hope my post will fullfill this function.

 

G.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Gamuret

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak