Guodian Lao tzu

[wandelaar]

http://www.daoisopen.com/guodianlaozi.html

 

Are these found texts relevant for our understanding of the Tao Te Ching as we know it?

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

http://www.daoisopen.com/guodianlaozi.html

 

Are these found texts relevant for our understanding of the Tao Te Ching as we know it?

I bought it a long time ago.  I found nothing that would change the flow of concepts in the Ma-wang-tui texts.

 

Yes, there are some variations but nothing significant, IMO.

 

 

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Are these found texts relevant for our understanding of the Tao Te Ching as we know it?

 

For me the relevance is in seeing how prevalent the various texts must have been. Its remarkable that these texts surived the infamous book burning in 213 BCE. For a tomb to be found with these texts suggests that the ideas in the TTC must have been in wide circulation at the time. This is the main point of Dan Reid's The Thread of Dao. 

[dawei]

In my interview with Livia Kohn, I posed a question to her that she seems to have various dates on the Laozi... she said:

 

Rhythm schemes suggest the first transmissions may date to 500 BC.  Its rhythm scheme is similar to the Shi Jing (Book of Poetry) which dates back to 800 BC.   It is definitely a southern style (ie: Chu) as all evidence points there, but not necessarily more similar to another well know Chu writing, Songs of Chu, than say the Book of Poetry.    I don’t know enough about that to give any more detailed comparison to being a southern style.    There was of course Shamanism with spiritual connections to nature where it is not as cold in the south that influenced the political thinking

 

 

Guodian version likely 320 BC

 

The writing style of the finished version suggests around 250 BC

 

I won’t be surprised if something turns up later that changes some of this. 

 

Hendricks is the main translator of the Guodian and I would recommend it but it gets quite technical.

 

One main takeaway is that the Taoist slam on Confucianism is less revealed in the Guodian, it is much less tempered view.

 

There are some very subtle changes which can be debated but I think word debates don't change the overall meaning too much, which I think MB suggests. 

[Marblehead]

My recall of Henricks' notes is that Confucian and Daoist thoughts were used together for teaching purposes.  I doubt the Guodian texts were meant to inspire argument but rather as tools for teaching.

 

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

My recall of Henricks' notes is that Confucian and Daoist thoughts were used together for teaching purposes.  I doubt the Guodian texts were meant to inspire argument but rather as tools for teaching.

 

 

There is some talk that the tomb is a court teacher and thus had no beef between the teachings.  I think there is much to be learned from that idea

 

[Marblehead]

Yep, it has been my understanding for a long time that the Chinese used Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism in tandem.

 

Buddhism for the spiritual

Confucianism for public conduct

Daoism for private conduct

 

[dawei]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yep, it has been my understanding for a long time that the Chinese used Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism in tandem.

 

Buddhism for the spiritual

Confucianism for public conduct

Daoism for private conduct

 

 

very curious... have not heard that before...

 

So if I re-write it:

 

Buddhism for ritual self

Confucianism for public self

Daoism for inner self 

 

I've never thought on this point before, so just my first instinct. 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

Buddhism for ritual self

 

???

[Marblehead]

39 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

???

His thoughts for his usage.  I can't argue with them.

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Buddhism for the spiritual

Confucianism for public conduct

Daoism for private conduct

 

 

I am not as well read as many of you but I have long felt that Confucianism addressed public/social conduct where Daoism deals with inner/personal conduct. This notion in spite of Laozi and Chuangzi being critical of Confucianism. When I read about Confucianism it seems like there is sort of an assumption of Daoist ideals as a common foundation. I could be way off base here.

 

As for Buddhism, I don't see it as incompatible with Daoism in terms of methods but in end goals. From an historical point of view I understand that there was a lot of conflict between Buddhist and Daoist schools as they competed for influence in court. Probably much to the discredit of both systems of belief. Politics is always aa nasty business.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by OldDog
Misspelled word

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I am not as well read as many of you but I have long felt that Confucianism addressed public/social conduct where Daoism deals with inner/personal conduct. This notion in spite of Laozi and Chuangzi being critical of Confucianism. When I read about Confusicanism it seems like there is sort of an assumption of Daoist ideals as a common foundation. I could be way off base here.

Yes, there are a lot of roots of what became Daoism in Confucian philosophy.  It's just that after the branches started growing they grew in separate ways from Daoism.

 

Remember, Lao Tzu didn't criticize Confucianism.  Confucius was still a teenager when Lao Tzu wandered off into the unknown.

 

It was Chuang Tzu who opposed Confucius.  Understandable considering the philosophy of the two. 

 

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

As for Buddhism, I don't see it as incompatible with Daoism in terms of methods but in end goals. From an historical point of view I understand that there was a lot of conflict between Buddhist and Daoist schools as they competed for influence in court. Probably much to the discredit of both systems of belief. Politics is always aa nasty business.

China did not have a "religion" when Buddhism arrived.  The people embraced it for its spirituality.  And it grew from that.

 

Yes, I think perhaps the Daoists wanted the Chinese to remain with Chinese alchemic and shamanic teachings.  Apparently there was a lot missing that the people needed in their life.  Therefore the acceptance of Buddhism.

 

The Chinese Court wanted structure that they could control.  Buddhism had structure, Daoism did not.

 

 

[wandelaar]

Buddhism has more "food for thought" for those of an intellectual disposition.

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Remember, Lao Tzu didn't criticize Confucianism.  Confucius was still a teenager when Lao Tzu wandered off into the unknown.

 

Yes, while the chronology doesn't fit, the DDJ is not without criticism of ideas that were held in high esteem by Confucius.

 

On the decline of the great Tao,

The doctrines of 'humanity' and 'justice' arose.
When knowledge and cleverness appeared,

Great hypocrisy followed in its wake.
When the six relationships no longer lived at peace,

There was (praise of) 'kind parents' and 'filial sons.'
When a country fell into chaos and misrule,

There was (praise of) 'loyal ministers.'  Ch18

 

 

Therefore:
After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity,

After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice.
After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) Ii.
Now Ii is the thinning out of loyalty and honesty of heart.
And the beginning of chaos. Ch 38

 

These just probably show that ideas of justice, loyalty and piety already existed as part of the fabric of Chinese society long before Confucius promoted/emphasized them as a means to civil order.

 

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Apparently there was a lot missing that the people needed in their life.  Therefore the acceptance of Buddhism.

 

... and probably Confucianism, as well.

 

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The Chinese Court wanted structure that they could control.

 

China has had a long history of distrust of religious organizations as a threat to those in power ... and probably not without cause. Sort of a take on ... Keep your friends close but your enemies closer. 

[rene]

21 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Yes, while the chronology doesn't fit, the DDJ is not without criticism of ideas that were held in high esteem by Confucius.

 

On the decline of the great Tao,

The doctrines of 'humanity' and 'justice' arose.
When knowledge and cleverness appeared,

Great hypocrisy followed in its wake.
When the six relationships no longer lived at peace,

There was (praise of) 'kind parents' and 'filial sons.'
When a country fell into chaos and misrule,

There was (praise of) 'loyal ministers.'  Ch18

 

 

Therefore:
After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity,

After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice.
After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) Ii.
Now Ii is the thinning out of loyalty and honesty of heart.
And the beginning of chaos. Ch 38

 

These just probably show that ideas of justice, loyalty and piety already existed as part of the fabric of Chinese society long before Confucius promoted/emphasized them as a means to civil order.

 

 

... and probably Confucianism, as well.

 

 

China has had a long history of distrust of religious organizations as a threat to those in power ... and probably not without cause. Sort of a take on ... Keep your friends close but your enemies closer. 

 

Here are other renderings of those parts of Ch18 and Ch38 (F/E) that you quoted.

 

EIGHTEEN

When the great Tao is forgotten,
Kindness and morality arise.
When wisdom and intelligence are born,
The great pretense begins.

When there is no peace within the family,
Filial piety and devotion arise.
When the country is confused and in chaos,
Loyal ministers appear.

 

 

THIRTY-EIGHT

.....

 

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao.
It is the beginning of folly.

.....

 

Interesting thread wandelaar

[wandelaar]

What do you people consider the best book on the Guodian Lao tzu?

[Marblehead]

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

What do you people consider the best book on the Guodian Lao tzu?

I believe Henricks' was the first in English.  I bought it.  Haven't found it significant enough to see if anyone else has translated it into English.

 

 

[dawei]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:56 PM, Marblehead said:

I believe Henricks' was the first in English.  I bought it.  Haven't found it significant enough to see if anyone else has translated it into English.

 

I think that is correct... except for some attempts here 

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I think that is correct... except for some attempts here 

That's only because I haven't had the time to get my feet dirty.

 

I have a reconstructed version of Henricks' TTC where I removed the Ma-wang-tui lines and inserted the Guodian lines wherever there was any difference at all.

 

It might be interesting to do a comparative of Henricks' original and the version I modified.

 

[wandelaar]

Something like this?

 

https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.nl/&httpsredir=1&article=2401&context=theses

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Something like this?

 

https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.nl/&httpsredir=1&article=2401&context=theses

I had not seen that before.  Thanks for the link.

 

His is far more comprehensive than mine is.  He supports his work well.

 

Mine is only the text of the TTC.

 

I only scanned the article but will likely get back to it one day soon and actually read it.

 

Thanks again.

 

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=784211

 

The Lao Tzu unearthed in Guodian Chu Bamboo Slips has only 2,000 characters, which shows that the modern version of Tao Te Ching may have 3,000 characters more

 

郭店楚簡出土的老子只有兩千字，這說明了現代版的道德經可能多出了三千字

 

 

[awaken]

（道）亙（恆）亡為也，侯王能守之，而萬勿（物）○（將）自○（化）

 

道恆無為也，侯王能守之，則萬物將自化

 

Dao is always WuWei , if men can keep it, all things will be self-transformed

 

Laozi made it very clear that all things can evolve naturally through inaction, and this evolutionary path is the way

 

老子說得很清楚了，無為才能萬物自然演化，這條演化之路才是道

 

But the modern version of Tao Te Ching omits the first sentence

 

但是現代版的道德經卻把第一句給省略了

 

The two characteristics of Taoism, inaction and natural evolution, are indispensable

 

道的兩大特色，無為，自然演化，缺一不可

 

Only true inaction（Wu-wei） can produce the phenomenon of evolution

 

真正的無為，才能產生演化的現象

 

I mentioned in another topic about visualization that the sun, stars, and moon will all appear automatically, which are all evolved

 

我在另外一個談論觀想的主題提到太陽，星星，月亮都會自動出現，這都是演化出來的

 

Visualization is useless, those phenomena should be produced by evolution, not by visualization

 

觀想沒有什麼用處，那些現象應該是演化才會產生出來的，而不是因為觀想才能產生出來的

 

The inaction（WuWei） in the first sentence was omitted, causing a serious consequence, that is, what was supposed to be a very specific "inaction", but because "inaction" was omitted, it became an illusory "Tao"
The problem is that if there is no "inaction", "Tao" will not come into being

 

第一句的無為被省略掉了，造成一個嚴重的後果，就是本來守的是很具體的「無為」，但是因為「無為」被省略掉了，變成守的是虛無縹緲的「道」
問題是沒有「無為」的話，「道」就不會產生

 

It turns out that what should be observed is "inaction"（WuWei）, but now it is observed that the breath in the lower abdomen is more outrageous.

 

原來守的應該是「無為」，結果現在變成守的是下腹部的呼吸，這就更離譜了

 

What's even more blind is that I have been talking about "inaction" and "evolution" here since 2016, but I was scolded for a long time by a group of people who said "keep the breath in the lower abdomen"

 

更瞎的是我從2016年就在在這裡講「無為」和「演化」，結果被一群講「守下腹部呼吸」的人罵了好久

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

（益）生曰○（祥），心○（使）○（氣）曰○（強），勿（物）○（壯）則老，是胃（謂）不道。

 

益生曰祥，心使氣曰強，物壯則老，是謂不道。

 

Greed for birth is a bad omen, using the mind to control Qi is called violence, and things that are too strong will grow old, which is the so-called non-Dao.

 

The only sentence Lao Tzu unearthed from Chu bamboo slips in Guodian mentioned "Qi"

 

郭店楚簡出土的老子唯一講到「氣」的一句話

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by awaken

[Cobie]

21 hours ago, awaken said:

… the modern version of Tao Te Ching omits the first sentence …

 

Interesting. What is the sentence? In which chapter is it?

 

19 hours ago, awaken said:

.. The only sentence Lao Tzu unearthed from Chu bamboo slips in Guodian mentioned "Qi"

In which chapter is this sentence?

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cobie