For anyone in the "socialism bad" chanting group

[Owledge]

11 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Not really.  Why do we have to rely on 19th century solutions in 2018?  Being a marxist now is like rebooting an old movie franchise instead of producing a new one.

Right, what good are old concepts? Let's dump daoism already.

 

Some solutions are pretty much eternal wisdom, since they touch close to the core. Marx' ideas are not outdated because we haven't even managed to get there yet. 'New' stuff regarding Marx as outdated and failed is just building on more of the problem, a partial defeat, and if those arguably less enlightened methods succeed, they will further mask the potential that was not realized with the old ways. I mean, just look how capitalism itself is glorified as time-tested, proven to work. It can take humankind another century before they arrive at something 1% better and then get drunk on their enlightened new world, while calling Marxists unreasonable extremist dinosaurs. (The  good is the worst enemy of the better. - The more things suck, the clearer people can see.)

Edited August 7, 2018 by Owledge

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Zork said:

No it didn't. Capitalism, in a crude form, existed long before the dark ages. Also many countries independently arrived at this economic system without the transition through feudalism.

The correct statement would be "In the western world, Modern Capitalism grew out of Feudalism"

 

 

Could you give examples.

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

I am not aware of this definition

that was the point

27 minutes ago, Owledge said:

rights are the same for everybody.

lol)

 

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

and perhaps being from Chicago, I'm used to a lower bar.

Yeah, bad standard by which to judge anything.

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Zork said:

It's ironic to say that "socialism is bad" in America. You are using socialist policies as we speak (i..e antitrust laws, 2008 bank bailout etc) . This happens because the average American can't distinguish socialism from communism.

Many countries in the european north have extensive socialist systems blended with capitalism and it works fine with little bureaucracy. The problem as i see it is that there are countries that this system won't work due to mentality of the local population.

Ironic you say that when I, an American, know exactly what socialism is and am fully aware that over the past one hundred years the USA has gradually slide more toward socialism and this why the US government is 21 trillion dollars in debt.  That is, working Americans are 21 trillion dollars in debt because of our government having more expenditures than revenue.

 

That's socialism.  A destroyer of governments.

 

And this is why there are still a lot of Europeans wanting to migrate to the USA.  They are tired of giving 50% of their income to the government in order to support their social systems.

 

I don't know what it is now but it used to be that a large portion of people in England had to pay 60% of their income to the government.

 

Socialism inspires people who want to work look for something better, like capitalism.

 

 

[Marblehead]

48 minutes ago, Zork said:

The correct statement would be "In the western world, Modern Capitalism grew out of Feudalism"

But this doesn't include the USA.

 

[Marblehead]

49 minutes ago, Owledge said:

Right, what good are old concepts? Let's dump daoism already.

No.  Dump the ones that don't work.  Keep the ones that work.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Owledge said:

Right, what good are old concepts? Let's dump daoism already.

 

Some solutions are pretty much eternal wisdom, since they touch close to the core. Marx' ideas are not outdated because we haven't even managed to get there yet. 'New' stuff regarding Marx as outdated and failed is just building on more of the problem, a partial defeat, and if those arguably less enlightened methods succeed, they will further mask the potential that was not realized with the old ways. I mean, just look how capitalism itself is glorified as time-tested, proven to work. It can take humankind another century before they arrive at something 1% better and then get drunk on their enlightened new world, while calling Marxists unreasonable extremist dinosaurs. (The  good is the worst enemy of the better. - The more things suck, the clearer people can see.)

 

 

I'd agree that Daoism is something akin to eternal wisdom but Marxism is an economic theory based on the conditions which pertained when marx lived.

[Daemon]

From my perspective, all isms are time-bound and never eternal (or universal) because they are by their own nature dualistic and cannot encompass the infinity of complexity.

 

☮️

 

[Owledge]

56 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Ironic you say that when I, an American, know exactly what socialism is and am fully aware that over the past one hundred years the USA has gradually slide more toward socialism and this why the US government is 21 trillion dollars in debt.  That is, working Americans are 21 trillion dollars in debt because of our government having more expenditures than revenue.

 

That's socialism.  A destroyer of governments.

 

OMFG - THAT's why you think the USA has a debt crisis?

Could it not maybe be because of a traditionally powerful plutocracy leeching off all the wealth and the arms industry sucking the country dry with an ever-bloating war budget for imperialist adventures sowing chaos in the world? Oh no, SOCIALISM is at fault. Because without that damn socialism in the USA, people would be allowed to work 18 hours a day and then the USA would be productive enough to pay off their debts. And they'd also die younger, so no pensions need to be paid. Everybody wins.

 

This stubborn adherence to a selfishness-fueled belief system is why humankind will keep suffering horribly.

Man, this is a daoist forum and people don't even get the most blatantly obvious beginner lessons from the Dao De Jing.

 

I have to ask you, too: Did you even watch the video? Because you talk like you didn't.

 

Here's more necessary material:

 

"America's Unofficial Religion, The War on an Idea"

 

"Understanding Marxism and Socialism with Richard Wolff"

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Owledge

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Owledge said:

OMFG - THAT's why you think the USA has a debt crisis?

I didn't stutter when I said it.

 

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, Owledge said:

Could it not maybe be because of a traditionally powerful plutocracy leeching off all the wealth and the arms industry sucking the country dry with an ever-bloating war budget for imperialist adventures sowing chaos in the world?

Of course that's part of it.  And it seems that we the people keep electing the war mongers.  This allows for the corruption in government spending.

 

But we are talking about socialism here.  That's what I was speaking to.

 

[Marblehead]

11 minutes ago, Owledge said:

I have to ask you, too: Did you even watch the video? Because you talk like you didn't.

 

I already said I didn't watch the video.  I am speaking my onw mind without being influenced by the thoughts of others.

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Of course that's part of it.  And it seems that we the people keep electing the war mongers.  This allows for the corruption in government spending.

 

But we are talking about socialism here.  That's what I was speaking to.

 

 

There is no socialism practiced in the US - although there are socialists.  High taxation is not socialism.

[Marblehead]

I won't be watching those last two videos either.

 

But I will respond when I feel I have a reason to do so.

 

I am an Anarchist, you know.  I have a mind of my own.  I don't need others to tell me what to think.

 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

There is no socialism practiced in the US - although there are socialists.  High taxation is not socialism.

Taking from the working members of a society and giving to those unable to work or too lazy to work is socialism.  Doesn't matter what pretty colors you paint it with.

 

The Welfare system in the USA is socialism.  A means for controlling the people.

 

Taxation in the USA is lower than perhaps all of the European countries.   But the tax laws still favor the wealthy and beat hell out of the working (middle) class.

 

 

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Taking from the working members of a society and giving to those unable to work or too lazy to work is socialism.  Doesn't matter what pretty colors you paint it with.

 

The Welfare system in the USA is socialism.  A means for controlling the people.

 

Taxation in the USA is lower than perhaps all of the European countries.   But the tax laws still favor the wealthy and beat hell out of the working (middle) class.

 

 

 

 

Not technically.

 

socialism
ˈsəʊʃəlɪz(ə)m/
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

Has this happened in the USA?

 

 

[Daemon]

@Apech

Does True socialism requires the implementation direct democracy?

 

☮️

 

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Daemon said:

@Apech

Does True socialism requires the implementation direct democracy?

 

☮️

 

 

 

Only if it is democratic socialism - revolutionary socialism does not respect/require democracy.  As I understand it.

[Owledge]

The argument in the USA is always the same worn-out libertarian platitude:  Big government becomes oppressive, so put all power in the market. - Ignoring how the situation arose to begin with that the government became so corruptible. And the obvious answer is that that government is capitalist, i.e. it concerns itself with money, is enslaved to it, and is not controlled by the People. The USA can have free heathcare for everybody and it would still not be a socialist government, because that could indeed be used to control the masses, albeit that fear is also often exaggerated, because the People don't get free healthcare unless they exert more power over the government, which would reduce its corruptibility. Corruption always happens when individuals care more about their personal enrichment than about alleviating the suffering of others, and that personal enrichment is the main pillar of capitalism and thus also of the USA's libertarianism with its obsession over indiviualism. It is simply the fear of not being able to live well when caring about others, too, by putting own interests aside for a bit to be able to do that.

 

People's fear of being controlled by a central authority brings that about. Spiritual teachings are telling us that for ages. Fear-motivated action creates more fear. If you don't unite is shared common interest, you are dividing and fracturing yourself (fueled by that individualism myth), which gives more power to the wealthy few who then actually control you. Many people don't want to see this because they themselves aspire to become such a controller by playing the existing system in their favor. What they call "success".

Edited August 7, 2018 by Owledge

[Owledge]

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

Only if it is democratic socialism - revolutionary socialism does not respect/require democracy.  As I understand it.

Undemocratic socialism is like national socialism or non-corrupt capitalism: It is a perverted form that is unsustainable.

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

that was the point

 

 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Read it and then tell me if the USSR deprived their citizens of all their rights as you claim.

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Could you give examples.

For what? You quoted 2 or 3 different cases. You need examples for what? Countries that have transitioned to capitalism without Feudalism? Pick any country in the world that was not part of the western roman empire. As for the ancient capitalism part. You just have to study Roman or ancient Greek economy. The romans are responsible for example for the first recorded extinction of a plant species due to high demand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylphium

[Daemon]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Only if it is democratic socialism - revolutionary socialism does not respect/require democracy.  As I understand it.

 

 

That too is my understanding.

 

☮️

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Owledge said:

Undemocratic socialism is like national socialism or non-corrupt capitalism: It is a perverted form that is unsustainable.

 

 

Are you American, cos you seem very confused about these things.

 

 

The proletariat, the lowest stratum of our present society, cannot stir, cannot raise itself up, without the whole superincumbent strata of official society being sprung into the air. Though not in substance, yet in form, the struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. The proletariat of each country must, of course, first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie. In depicting the most general phases of the development of the proletariat, we traced the more or less veiled civil war, raging within existing society, up to the point where that war breaks out into open revolution, and where the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie lays the foundation for the sway of the proletariat. (...) The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; (...) The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution.

— Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, The Communist Manifesto, 1848

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Zork said:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Read it and then tell me if the USSR deprived their citizens of all their rights as you claim.

For what? You quoted 2 or 3 different cases. You need examples for what? Countries that have transitioned to capitalism without Feudalism? Pick any country in the world that was not part of the western roman empire. As for the ancient capitalism part. You just have to study Roman or ancient Greek economy. The romans are responsible for example for the first recorded extinction of a plant species due to high demand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylphium

 

 

I don't need examples - I was just interested in which countries you thought were capitalist before the dark ages.  'any country in the world that was not part of the western roman empire' - well which ones do you have in mind?