For anyone in the "socialism bad" chanting group

[Lost in Translation]

I think it really comes down to this: If people are prone to temptation and temptation easily leads to to corruption do you A ) build a society around a strong central authority or do you B ) build a decentralized society with each portion checking and balancing the other?

 

I believe option B is the way to go. Others may disagree. That is their right.

[joeblast]

otherwise you have things like a bureaucracy that builds an extragovernmental edifice for itself and starts using the intelligence agencies against the populace and government branches *cough*irs*cough* or *cough* EPA*cough* or(rip Gibson)*cough* .....to attack any adversary of said bureaucracy...

 

...spreading fake news....

 

putting sand and molasses in the gears of justice where needed...

 

....pushing in the clutch pedal of justice where necessary so that certain terrain doesnt interact with the engine so much...

 

yeah, that'd be a terrible thing to have happen

Edited August 7, 2018 by joeblast

[Aetherous]

I'm all for checks and balances. That's what worries me when people are talking about a totally free market with no government.

[Lost in Translation]

5 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

I'm all for checks and balances. That's what worries me when people are talking about a totally free market with no government.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating no government, but I understand what you mean. The left (lower case "l") pulls for "larger" government and the right pulls for "smaller" government. How large is enough? More! how small is enough? Less! In the end we meet in the middle and the political "market" wins.

 

7 minutes ago, joeblast said:

otherwise you have things like a bureaucracy that builds an extragovernmental edifice for itself and starts using the intelligence agencies against the populace and government branches *cough*irs*cough* or *cough* EPA*cough* or(rip Gibson)*cough* .....to attack any adversary of said bureaucracy...

 

Most corruption is far more prosaic....

 

Quote

California DMV worker slept on the job for nearly 4 years, audit finds

 

FRESNO, Calif. --

A key data operator at the Department of Motor Vehicles failed to perform her essential duties over a period of nearly four years because she slept at her desk for extended periods of time during work hours, according to a state audit.

From February 2014 through December 2017, the employee misused more than 2,200 hours of work time as a result of sleeping on the job, costing the state more than $40,000, the report said.

 

https://abc7.com/society/ca-dmv-worker-slept-on-the-job-for-4-years-audit-finds/3819567/

Edited August 7, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[rene]

35 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I don't think anyone is advocating no government,

 

I am.

[Owledge]

I am not gonna respond to lazy minds anymore who are only interested in sending their rigid belief system and refuse to consult the video(s) I posted. I posted it particularly so that ignorant-laughable broken-record sending would not occur.

 

People are willing to spend so much time defending their view and so little on learning something new.

[Lost in Translation]

42 minutes ago, Owledge said:

I am not gonna respond to lazy minds anymore who are only interested in sending their rigid belief system and refuse to consult the video(s) I posted. I posted it particularly so that ignorant-laughable broken-record sending would not occur.

 

People are willing to spend so much time defending their view and so little on learning something new.

 

TDB is a "free market" for the exchange of ideas. An idea "sells" only when it has "value" to the reader. Not everyone will buy what you are selling. Neither will they buy what I am selling. That said, what do you do when people don't buy your ideas? Do you "roll up your sleeves and coerce them," or do you realise that "ruling a country is like cooking a small fish?"

Edited August 8, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[wandelaar]

Most people only participate in political discussions to defend their own preconceptions, and not to learn anything new or to seriously consider the arguments of their opponents. Hence the predictable result is further polarisation. That's why I mostly avoid those discussions nowadays. As concrete reality is a complex matter one can always look for and find cases that seem to prove ones own position. In this way one will get further and further entrenched in ones own preconceptions and will consequently start seeing the others as complete fools incapable and/or even unwilling to see the obvious truth. All very much against the spirit of the Chuang tzu! As for Lao tzu: he would be against too much rules and regulations, and that could be considered as commending laissez faire. But he also disapproves of extreme inequality, useless innovations and overconsumption! He actually commends a radical return to a simple agrarian form of living. So here again, the case is not that simple.

Edited August 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

14 hours ago, Aetherous said:

I'm all for checks and balances. That's what worries me when people are talking about a totally free market with no government.

Yep.  Even I, an Anarchist, realize that there must be rules for the game.  There must be a power who sets and enforces the rules.

 

But, remembering what Chuang Tzu (and maybe Lao Tzu) said, the more rules a society has the more criminals that society will have.

 

The middle path.

 

[wandelaar]

Don't think one can go any further than commending a middle path. That's the most reasonable position. But where exactly the middle path lies is unknown. So there remains a big subjective factor in ones personal placement of the middle path that cannot further be defended in any objective manner.

[Zork]

6 hours ago, Owledge said:

I am not gonna respond to lazy minds anymore who are only interested in sending their rigid belief system and refuse to consult the video(s) I posted. I posted it particularly so that ignorant-laughable broken-record sending would not occur.

 

People are willing to spend so much time defending their view and so little on learning something new.

The video isn't useful. I watched the first 12 minutes and what it basically says is that the media in the US present the Venezuelan government in an unfavorable way by twisting facts. That's true but it isn't worth 46 minutes of my time.

Any country with vast natural reserves can employ socialist or even communist policies. The problem lies when having to employ these policies in a poor country which may or may not lack infrastructure.

[Marblehead]

"Show and tell time" will define the middle path.

 

Did an action make a positive difference?  If not than the action needs be negated.

 

Is an action enforceable?  If not then don't take it.

 

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Owledge said:

I am not gonna respond to lazy minds anymore who are only interested in sending their rigid belief system and refuse to consult the video(s) I posted. I posted it particularly so that ignorant-laughable broken-record sending would not occur.

 

People are willing to spend so much time defending their view and so little on learning something new.

If you are unable to summarize something within a couple paragraphs then don't bother posting long videos.  Some people have a life and they don't have time to watch videos that are very long.

 

And then, if a person has already studied the concept through information presented by people who actually knew what they were talking about why would one elect to listen to bullshit?

 

[Apech]

On 8/6/2018 at 12:32 PM, Owledge said:

Required watching.

How many more wakeup calls are needed?

 

 

The video adds some heavy footnotes on the systematic omissions and deceptions that are abundant in the imperialist propaganda sphere.

 

 

Had time to watch this today - very good I thought - well researched.  But although as a critique of John Oliver it works there is no critique of Chavez and Maduro so I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere between.

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I have said all I needed to say in this thread.  I likely won't post again.

 

[wandelaar]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

"Show and tell time" will define the middle path.

 

In broad outline, yes.

 

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Did an action make a positive difference?  If not than the action needs be negated.

 

But here the problems start:

- What is a positive difference?

- What kind of society do you want to live in?

- How much room is there for people who fail in the rat race?

- How to balance environmental protection and free enterprise?

- What to do about crime?

- Should drugs be legalized?

- Are parents allowed to religiously indoctrinate and/or mutilate their children?

 

So much questions...

 

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Is an action enforceable?  If not then don't take it.

 

What do you mean by that?

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I have said all I needed to say in this thread.  I likely won't post again.

 

Sorry - I just posted some questions. Feel free to ignore them.

[Zork]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

But although as a critique of John Oliver it works there is no critique of Chavez and Maduro so I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere between.

For a non american who doesn't know the guy, why should i give a *bleep*?

Why is this "required" to know? I reckon that most of the people in the site are american but that doesn't mean that the things you take for granted are valid in other countries or cultures. e.g. Your perspectives of Right and Left wing are unique, yet you somehow consider that the whole world shares these opinions. I am not criticizing the people cause they have been social engineered that way.

 

Edit: And now that i think of it, the editor of the video shows contempt about the protesters that want the removal of the late and current democratically elected presidents of Venezuela. Does he support the same practices in the US?

Does he want the democratically elected president of the US removed?

You are good people yet you are completely confused. Tread carefully.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Zork

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

But here the problems start:

Stop asking me questions.  I said I was done posting in this thread.  

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

What do you mean by that?

But I will speak to this:

 

I said:  Is an action enforceable?  If not then don't take it.

 

In other words, don't make laws that there are not enough resources to enforce it.  This will only lead to people intentionally violating the law because they are almost certain that they won't get caught.  And getting away with silly laws will only embolden those who got away with it to violate more important laws; those that negatively effect themselves and others.

 

I have held a standard for a long time:  I make no promises I am not 99% sure that I would be able to follow through on.  Only 99% because shit happens.

 

So basically, if any government still has on their books that you are not allowed to let your horse shit in the street the government isn't doing its job properly.  If they make a law that I cannot use the "N" word they are passing a law that they cannot enforce.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

Let me just say how much I have enjoyed this thread. It seems that most threads in "Off Grid" that are policy centered, such as this one, generate vibrant and varied views that are healthy for mature thought. I tip my hat to all who have participated in this debate. Thank you @Owledgefor starting this topic and for keeping it on point. I sincerely hope we can continue to have articulate conversations such as this on a variety of topics important to our lives outside of our practices without garnering any negative feelings towards those with whom we may disagree. I respect you all.

[joeblast]

10 hours ago, Owledge said:

I am not gonna respond to lazy minds anymore who are only interested in sending their rigid belief system and refuse to consult the video(s) I posted. I posted it particularly so that ignorant-laughable broken-record sending would not occur.

 

People are willing to spend so much time defending their view and so little on learning something new.

a few minutes is not a big deal to ask of someone - 40, 45, that's when one pulls the take the middle finger out of your pocket maneuver on something that one doesnt already have a modicum of interest in

 

you asked 40 minutes of people's time....to debunk john oliver? 

 

(I know its more than that, but still...the mere fact that it includes John Oliver precludes it from being worth 40 minutes of most people's time.)

[Owledge]

20 minutes ago, joeblast said:

a few minutes is not a big deal to ask of someone - 40, 45, that's when one pulls the take the middle finger out of your pocket maneuver on something that one doesnt already have a modicum of interest in

 

you asked 40 minutes of people's time....to debunk john oliver? 

 

(I know its more than that, but still...the mere fact that it includes John Oliver precludes it from being worth 40 minutes of most people's time.)

Some information is worth checking out and then it might captivate. But I am aware of the Reddit Syndrome: "We don't have time to watch a 10 minute video, we need to watch 100 animated GIFs."

Time is so very relative when you add quality to the picture. That video I linked doesn't give John Oliver the limelight he'd like. He's just a sideshow of the true message. But that might also require deductive capacity, and missing the point is so easy when the mind is preoccupied.

Enlightenment comes through awarness, not information processing.

 

Maybe there is nothing that should be said about the video.

(Except that the HTML5 player allows video speedup, haha. But I don't know whether that's making things better or worse.)

[rideforever]

22 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

A powerful and 'evil' business has control over only that area of your life where you let it.

 

Doesn't happen.  FDA is full of corporate interests, and people's minds are twisted by professional psychological corporate culture.   See Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomsky.

Corporations are particularly evil as they are non-living persons, with only a ruthless one-dimensional non-living "spirit".   They will certainly result in the destruction of our species.

Humans are extremely unconscious timid and sheeplike, it's not a great place to deploy grand ideas.
Society tends to unfold in cycles (like the yugas).

Words like "free market" and "growth" .... this is a subtle mind control.

 

The strongly polarised cycles of society, along with the general atmosphere of sh**, simply reflects the nature and purpose of this dimension of existence.   To want something better is to leave, if you stay and play here then it's the right place for you.    There needs to be an intermediary world of creatures swimming in the slime .... somewhere in the universe.   And if you have arrived here you should realise what that means and get the mirror out.

[idquest]

I watched that video in the OP for 5 minutes. It is a condescending piece of s***t that assumes a person watching the video is a dumb and can't tell left from right. That was clear from the very first seconds of the video but I gave it whole 5 minutes of doubt. As MH said, summarise the video in two paragraphs and people will make their own decision as to watch it or not.

Edited August 8, 2018 by idquest

[Lost in Translation]

25 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Doesn't happen.  FDA is full of corporate interests, and people's minds are twisted by professional psychological corporate culture.   See Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomsky.

Corporations are particularly evil as they are non-living persons, with only a ruthless one-dimensional non-living "spirit".   They will certainly result in the destruction of our species.

Humans are extremely unconscious timid and sheeplike, it's not a great place to deploy grand ideas.
Society tends to unfold in cycles (like the yugas).

Words like "free market" and "growth" .... this is a subtle mind control.

 

There is more here than I care to discuss, but I will address your last point.

 

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The strongly polarised cycles of society, along with the general atmosphere of sh**, simply reflects the nature and purpose of this dimension of existence.   To want something better is to leave, if you stay and play here then it's the right place for you.    There needs to be an intermediary world of creatures swimming in the slime .... somewhere in the universe.   And if you have arrived here you should realise what that means and get the mirror out.

 

I believe we are here for a reason. As non-local, non-timebound, non-dual souls we have chosen to manifest in this reality knowing full well in-advance what awaits us. This dimension of existence is difficult and stressful, but it is a purposeful stress - not unlike the kind of stress that a student undergoes during class. Once this basic truth of suffering is known (felt, actually) then suffering takes a different quality. It still hurts, but only as pain does. This is my mirror that I gladly share with you.